All Small Six 200 head onto 170

[Johns62]

i have a 62 ranchero with a 170 , runs good but i thought i scored a 200 motor for upgrade. turned out water had got into motor , cylinders 4/5 piston stuck and bottom of head looked pretty bad. Fast forward - machine shop cleaned up head , looks great now and has given me a price list for the total refurbishment.
After reading posts re head swaps it seems like its beneficial , we are just doing a cc measurement on the head/manifold as its from a 76 maverick . if it measures 62 cc then i believe i will lose compression , needs to be 48-52 cc according to tech .
question 1; is the throat opening for the carb bigger on the 200 intake than the 170. (i have thrown the carbi away from the 200 manifold.)
2; can i use the carb from my 170 , adaptor plates maybe required?
3; are there benefits from using the refurbished head?
sorry lots of questions and i know i will be advised to just redo the whole 200 motor but i dont think i can justify the costs up here.
thanks for the help
john

 

[aussie7mains]

IMO, I would not bother with the 170 at all. If you have a later 200, use that, even if it needs work, cubes will always win(unless boosted). Sticking the 200 head on the 170 might not get much gain, the bigger valves will possibly overlap the smaller bore of the 170, negating any improvement in valve sizes.

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, the 200 head will work on the 170. In 1969 the carb opening was enlarged from 1 1/2" to 1 3/4". I would find a carb with the larger opening and a distributor with the modern vacuum advance. I would also mill the head so the combustion chamber are @ 53 cc. The early exhaust manifolds are also smaller at 1 3/4", Later ones are 2". There is plenty of room for improvement. Good luck

 

[powerband]

here's $.02:

1) YES - the OEM adapter on top of log will have different bore and carb fastener spacing - BUT easily changed out to older dimension , should be able to use original on the 170 head or aftermarket.

parallel thread current on forum:

All Small Six - Help finding an adapter for Autolite 1100 to later engine

A few weeks ago the 200 6 cylinder in our 67 Mustang started knocking, that engine is currently out and hoping to go through a rebuild. Unfortunately we found out that the cylinder head has a crack that cannot be repaired, picked up a 2nd engine, only to find that the head on that one is also...

fordsix.com

2) YES - see above .

3) YES - benefits from cc'ing the head and confidently predicting comp. ratio by milling, along with simple back-cut valve job, V8 springs and inspex/replace of any suspect parts will ensure driving rather than wrenching down the road ..


'63 has a '71 Maverick 170 from a Craigs List low-miles rotted car, with a donated D7DE (1977) era 250 head (@62cc's OEM) milled to 48 cc chambers. The original 'steel shim' thin head gaskets are still available for the smaller bore 170 and the stock 170 mated to rebuilt/48cc head yields a SCR @ 9.5:1. Tight 170 gets good mileage (with 91+ octane.) With the progressive 2Bbl carb, Hooker Dual Out headers and a T5 OD transmission, the170 runs strong and the OD-T5 enables best use of the torquey' small block six's powerband .
.
.
.
.
. .

Have fun

 

[frozenrabbit]

The original 'steel shim' thin head gaskets are still available for the smaller bore 170

Do you know a vendor? I have not been able to locate any.

I can't find Fel-Pro 7915 gaskets anywhere.

I have one used original, maybe usable with a couple coats of copper spray, but the water ports are kinda blown out from rust.

 

[powerband]

Steel shim gaskets for 3.50" - 144/170 bore are fairly available and often sold as suitable for 200/250. The 3.68" - 200/250 bore steel shim gaskets (AFAIK) are unobtainable except for rare appearance of NOS on Interweb' sales sites. I got a 3.68" gasket on E-BAy (C9xx), showed up folded in half -creasing it. I returned it...

... don't know of any current vendors although EGGE MACHINE may still have small bore 144/170 - 7915's , and they show up on E-Bay occasionally. I sent a 200/250 USED steel shim gasket to a forum member in Eastern Europe last year for re-use attempt.

Egge Machinery Company | Pistons Mfg | Water Pump Mfg

Family-owned, world-class piston manufacturer and machine shop that specializes in domestic vehicle pistons, water pumps, etc.

egge.com

have fun

. .

 

[Johns62]

thanks all for the rep[les, i am kind of hearing mixed responses, right off the bat you may have picked up i am no mechanic by any stretch, so i am still at the cross roads. To leave my 170 alone , maybe just store the 200 head/manifold for a rainy day or to spend $1200 for the head refurbish and no real benefit on its own or really bite the bullet and drop 3500$ for the whole 200 motor rebuild.
everyone says have fun with your journey but man this is anything but fun, sooo stressful .
thanks again

 

[bmbm40]

Actually you are in a good place. You already own your upgrade path provided the 200 block is viable. Often times people decide they want to do the 170 to swap and then have to go find the 200 and currently that is not easy sometimes. And you can still drive what you have while you make a plan. Get the casting numbers from your parts and post on here for future discussions. Might be a good idea to have the 200 block and head magnafluxed. And get a copy of the Falcon Performance Handbook as it will help you formulate a plan for further upgrades and stay in touch. Also brake and suspension upgrades to consider.

 

[Johns62]

Hi, the 200 head will work on the 170. In 1969 the carb opening was enlarged from 1 1/2" to 1 3/4". I would find a carb with the larger opening and a distributor with the modern vacuum advance. I would also mill the head so the combustion chamber are @ 53 cc. The early exhaust manifolds are also smaller at 1 3/4", Later ones are 2". There is plenty of room for improvement. Good luck

thanks for the reply. with my existing 170 head i can still change carb with an adaptor plate right? and if i run dual headres and 2 inch pipes and new exhaust, upgrade the dizzie i am thinking that is money better spent.
trying to find my path rather than just blow money on somethig i wont see a benefit from.
thanks again

 

[Johns62]

Actually you are in a good place. You already own your upgrade path provided the 200 block is viable. Often times people decide they want to do the 170 to swap and then have to go find the 200 and currently that is not easy sometimes. And you can still drive what you have while you make a plan. Get the casting numbers from your parts and post on here for future discussions. Might be a good idea to have the 200 block and head magnafluxed. And get a copy of the Falcon Performance Handbook as it will help you formulate a plan for further upgrades and stay in touch. Also brake and suspension upgrades to consider.

thanks i am going to a compression test today on my 170. i will get the numbers also. the 200 motor i have was supposedly rebuilt, but as i mentioned the two pistons are rusted stuck and there is some significant pitting on some of the other cylinder walls. it also has all parts on it some which are powder coated so i can swap parts over, (the carb is shot though).
tahnks again

 

[bmbm40]

thanks i am going to a compression test today on my 170. i will get the numbers also. the 200 motor i have was supposedly rebuilt, but as i mentioned the two pistons are rusted stuck and there is some significant pitting on some of the other cylinder walls. it also has all parts on it some which are powder coated so i can swap parts over, (the carb is shot though).
tahnks again

Good, yes you can use this link to decode your block and head casting codes to find out what the specs are, later is better:

Ford Small Six Specs - 144/170/200/250ci

All Inline Six Ford Small Six Specs - 144/170/200/250ci

fordsix.com

This is from the Tech Archive tab if you look up from here you will see it.

From what I understand ignition and carb are the best places to start, if your 170 is solid. If your 170 is not original and they often are not you may have a 1964 or later block so you could use the DSII ignition system which is considered by many to be the best for affordability and cost. If your block is pre 64 you could go with a Pertronix. Carb options are available also. Post casting code numbers on here.

 

[bmbm40]

l almost forgot, this is one of my favorite things now, good for pre 64 blocks especially.

Upgrade Points Distributor To Fire With A TFI Module

Converted my wife's daily driver to points-controlled electronic ignition using a Motorcraft ignition module off a '93 F150. Credit for this swap goes to gofastforless.com. I emailed the man who wrote the site to verify a couple of specifics, and he responded, which I appreciate. The goal of...

fordsix.com

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, before you change the distributor you should check the oil pump shaft. Very early engines used a 1/4" shaft and Ford quickly changed to a 5/16" shaft. Good luck

 

[Johns62]

Do you know a vendor? I have not been able to locate any.

I can't find Fel-Pro 7915 gaskets anywhere.

I have one used original, maybe usable with a couple coats of copper spray, but the water ports are kinda blown out from rust.

have you tried summit racing

 

[Johns62]

here's $.02:

1) YES - the OEM adapter on top of log will have different bore and carb fastener spacing - BUT easily changed out to older dimension , should be able to use original on the 170 head or aftermarket.

parallel thread current on forum:

All Small Six - Help finding an adapter for Autolite 1100 to later engine

A few weeks ago the 200 6 cylinder in our 67 Mustang started knocking, that engine is currently out and hoping to go through a rebuild. Unfortunately we found out that the cylinder head has a crack that cannot be repaired, picked up a 2nd engine, only to find that the head on that one is also...

fordsix.com

2) YES - see above .

3) YES - benefits from cc'ing the head and confidently predicting comp. ratio by milling, along with simple back-cut valve job, V8 springs and inspex/replace of any suspect parts will ensure driving rather than wrenching down the road ..


'63 has a '71 Maverick 170 from a Craigs List low-miles rotted car, with a donated D7DE (1977) era 250 head (@62cc's OEM) milled to 48 cc chambers. The original 'steel shim' thin head gaskets are still available for the smaller bore 170 and the stock 170 mated to rebuilt/48cc head yields a SCR @ 9.5:1. Tight 170 gets good mileage (with 91+ octane.) With the progressive 2Bbl carb, Hooker Dual Out headers and a T5 OD transmission, the170 runs strong and the OD-T5 enables best use of the torquey' small block six's powerband .
.
.
.
.
. .

Have fun

hi thanks for your reply, can i ask what is the benefit of milling the 250 heads down to the same specs 48-52 cc as the original 170head.
i also have a t5 5spd on my ranchero and i do want to do the daul headers and mufflers . i have watched a few of the members videos and i am leaning towards flowmaster mufflers.
compression test today showed 5 cylinders were between 143-147 and cyl 5 is 128, no terrible ticking noice coming from there though.

 

[Johns62]

Good, yes you can use this link to decode your block and head casting codes to find out what the specs are, later is better:

Ford Small Six Specs - 144/170/200/250ci

All Inline Six Ford Small Six Specs - 144/170/200/250ci

fordsix.com

This is from the Tech Archive tab if you look up from here you will see it.

From what I understand ignition and carb are the best places to start, if your 170 is solid. If your 170 is not original and they often are not you may have a 1964 or later block so you could use the DSII ignition system which is considered by many to be the best for affordability and cost. If your block is pre 64 you could go with a Pertronix. Carb options are available also. Post casting code numbers on here.

great info thanks for the spec data, its interesting that there is a gap in the listing for the 200/250 motor for 1976, that was the grey area i was concerned about for lack of info with my machine shop guy. also any idea why the later 200 had less torque and hp.
i will run the engine block codes again but i am sure my donor 200 is from a 76 maverick/fairlane.

 

[aussie7mains]

great info thanks for the spec data, its interesting that there is a gap in the listing for the 200/250 motor for 1976, that was the grey area i was concerned about for lack of info with my machine shop guy. also any idea why the later 200 had less torque and hp.
i will run the engine block codes again but i am sure my donor 200 is from a 76 maverick/fairlane.

The reason the power drops over the years is due to the change in how the engines were rated. In the "old days" the power ratings were not based on any sort of engine dyno test, they were mainly for advertising. They were rated as gross BHP, which meant they rating was calculated from tests performed with NO accessories driven, no air filter or silencer. Later engines were done to a better standard, net, BHP so with everything connected and operating, hence a considerably lower number. Most of the log 200ci engines would be lucky to make much more than about 85bhp net. As a for instance, in the old days a 200 six was rated at 121bhp (here anyway) and the 250 was 155bhp, Ive owned and driven both, the 200 is a slug. 250 has tonnes of torque but nothing special above about 3000rpm. I drove a couple of later falcons powered by a 200 crossflow alloy head 2 engine, these would easily be about the same performance as the early log 250, they were rated at 115bhp! So the early 250 was probably around 115, NOT 155. Our later OHC 4 litre sixes would easily have the power of a 302, they were rated at about 190bhp, which was pretty honest. As I said above I wouldnt bother with the 170, use the 200 with the better head.

 

[bmbm40]

Oh you have a T5, that would be my choice to get the od 5th for pleasant highway cruising.

great info thanks for the spec data, its interesting that there is a gap in the listing for the 200/250 motor for 1976, that was the grey area i was concerned about for lack of info with my machine shop guy. also any idea why the later 200 had less torque and hp.
i will run the engine block codes again but i am sure my donor 200 is from a 76 maverick/fairlane.

What are your block casting codes?

 

[chad]

"...And get a copy of the Falcon Performance Handbook as it will help you formulate a plan..."
I saw your struggle in posts # 1, 5, 7, 9.

The Ford Falcon SIX Cylinder PERFORMANCE HANDBOOK | Vintage Inlines

The Ford Falcon SIX Cylinder Performance Handbook has 107 pages of History, Facts, and Information to help you get more power out of your small Ford SIX. This engine was used in Falcons, Mustangs, Fairlaines, and Comets in the 60’s. It was the FoMoCo workhorse in Mavericks, Granadas, and...

www.vintageinlines.com

It helped me.
While waiting for delivery I read all (well, near all) of this:

Classic Inlines

The 2nd, 'Tech Archive', is avail @ top of this page, just R of center on the last drk blue horizontal line of the page.

 

[Johns62]

Oh you have a T5, that would be my choice to get the od 5th for pleasant highway cruising.

What are your block casting codes?

so the donor 200 block is D6DE 6015 AB, which i am pretty sure thats a 1976, and the head/manifold on my 170 in place is C1DE 6090 A, i cant give the 200 head/mani as it is in the machine shop still. I acnt get a good look at the block numbers on the 170, ill try again tomorrow, thanks