[250]Machine harmonic bal. removing 2nd pulley, bonding ring

[62Ranchero200]

Greetings Ford Six Fans:

Background: I swapped a 250 into my '62 Ranchero. The 250 is longer than the original 170, and my options for moving the engine back were limited by transmission and crossmember issues. I slotted the transmission mount holes in the existing crossmember as much as I dared to push the engine back a bit, then cut into the core support and moved the radiator as far forward as I could, but clearance between the fan and radiator is still tight.

Apparently 250s all came equipped with power steering and/or air conditioning, because it appears that no single-pulley 250 harmonic balancers were ever made. Have neither power steering nor air conditioning (just a water pump and alternator), so I'm not using the second pulley for anything, but it does force me to use a 3/4" spacer to push the mechanical fan out so that the back of the fan clears the second pulley. Spaced out 3/4", the mechanical fan comes perilously close to the radiator core; in fact, on initial installation the tips of the blades hit the top of the bottom radiator tank, and I had to trim the blades by about an inch to avoid this.

If the second pulley could be machined off and the bonding ring (at the base of the pulleys) machined down, the mechanical fan could be pushed back towards the engine about 1/2", which would allow me to use a full 14" fan (at least: maybe even a 15" fan).

I retained Damper Dudes in Anderson, CA to machine the second pulley off of a 250 harmonic balancer. They did so and sent the balancer to me (see below).



They did an excellent and professional job, but there is still the bonding ring (at the base of the pulleys) that prevents having enough clearance to push the mechanical fan back.

If I have the bonding ring machined down until it's flush with the rough cast front surface, will this weaken the bond too much and cause failure?

Thank you,
Bob

 

[drag-200stang]

This is only my opinion, but because of your strong build I think that a heaver balancer would be needed. Why not electric fan,it also can cool after shut down. I went from single to a double and saw less harmonic problems and I use no belts on a 200. I would not chance it. I am now required to use a sfi unit.

 

[62Ranchero200]

This is only my opinion, but because of your strong build I think that a heaver balancer would be needed. Why not electric fan,it also can cool after shut down. I went from single to a double and saw less harmonic problems and I use no belts on a 200. I would not chance it. I am now required to use a sfi unit.

@drag-200stang:

How did you judge having less harmonic issues with a 2-v balancer? Subjectively, by "seat of the pants" feel there was less vibration?

Do you drive your mustang on the street often? How is summer heat and traffic in your part of Michigan?

I drive the ranchero about twice a month to car club meetings and cruise ins. Here in Houston, it can be 100 degrees for weeks at a time in July, August, and September, and end of the world traffic can arise anywhere, any time. I already dealt the killing blow to one engine (my previous 200) with overheating and it's hard to trust electrical fans 100 percent. If an electrical issue cropped up I could destroy my $5,000 engine before I could get out of traffic.

Thanks
Bob

 

[drag-200stang]

This is only my opinion, but because of your strong build I think that a heaver balancer would be needed. Why not electric fan,it also can cool after shut down. I went from single to a double and saw less harmonic problems and I use no belts on a 200. I would not chance it. I am now required to use a sfi unit.

@drag-200stang:

How did you judge having less harmonic issues with a 2-v balancer? Subjectively, by "seat of the pants" feel there was less vibration?

Do you drive your mustang on the street often? How is summer heat and traffic in your part of Michigan?

I drive the ranchero about twice a month to car club meetings and cruise ins. Here in Houston, it can be 100 degrees for weeks at a time in July, August, and September, and end of the world traffic can arise anywhere, any time. I already dealt the killing blow to one engine (my previous 200) with overheating and it's hard to trust electrical fans 100 percent. If an electrical issue cropped up I could destroy my $5,000 engine before I could get out of traffic.

Thanks
Bob

Not scientific but chain seamed to show less stretch, less main walk. Engineers put more damper on longer stroke,high load engines for a reason. I have to have a CDL for my job,my car if used on the street would lead to trouble,it does not go there. Modern cars all use electric fan with no issue and should cool better at stop and go low revs What about a bigger hammer. If you feel ok with the modded damper thats all that Matters.

 

[wsa111]

Bob, the harmonic balance dampens the crankshaft harmonics. DO NOT Machine the damper part of the balancer.
Many racers years ago did away with the balancer & 90% of them had crankshaft failure. Being the crankshaft is cast just increases failure greatly.

 

[powerband]

The 250 doesn't easily fit the '62's engine compartment length with OEM radiator location that is the basic problem .

Following the present option/ solution but I will offer a few more mentioned in the forums. The radiator can be moved a little farther forward,I haven't done this but notching the radiator support and slipping it in was done on a '62 (Comet).

My '61 with a 250 has an oversize radiator and uses a Permacool pusher fan (@$100) pushing from front with the hood support just slightly trimmed for the fan. Elec.fan also requires a sensor and relay but simple to wire.

.


have fun

 

[bubba22349]

Hi Bob, what about just adapting a 289 / 302 dampener onto your 250 instead (see below link for a budget example). Then you can also use a single shiv bolt on pulley that many early 289 & 302 had. Many of these aftermarket Dampners also have bolt on balance weights so without a weight it's the correct zero imbalance you would need there are a number of others too with the SFI racing ratings for a bit more money. Good luck

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Professio ... aQod7OQF8g

 

[62Ranchero200]

@bubba22349,

With the combined thickness of the SBF harmonic balancer and the 1-V bolt-on pulley, would I really gain any extra space? It probably depends on the exact physical configuration of the SBF balancer and pulley.

@powerband,

I've already "trimmed" the core support and moved the radiator as far forward as possibly while still retaining any vestige of the core support. The only way to move the radiator any farther forward would be completely cut the remnants of the core support out and fabricate another one farther forward.

I recently received the machined harmonic balancer from Damper Dudes. In the photo below, the stock balancer is on the left and the machined balancer is on the right. Notice that the bonding ring was not machined all the way down to the cast surface, but still protrudes about 2/10 of an inch above it:



The machinist professionally rebuilds harmonic balancers and even makes customs, and I told him to use his best judgement about how much of the bonding ring could be safely removed and still leave enough to adequately dampen crankshaft harmonics.

The previous double pulley required me to space the mechanical fan out away from the engine about 3/4", while the new harmonic balancer will allow me to use the smaller 1/2" spacer (on the right in the photo below):



Those who followed my initial build might remember me mentioning that I had to trim the tips of my fan blades to keep them from striking the lower radiator tank. In the photo below, you can see that I had to trim about an inch off of the blades, effectively making my 14" flex fan (the smallest diameter manufactured) into a 12" flex fan. The trimmed fan is sitting on top of a new, untrimmed 14" fan:



With respect to everyone who weighed in on this topic, whenever anyone presents me with absolutes ("this cannot be done"), I have a tendency to be skeptical. Removing the harmonic balancer entirely on a high specific output, high RPM racing engine would be one thing, running a limited specific output, limited RPM engine with about 40% of the bonding ring machined off is another. Let's quantify this as much as possible:

* The bonding ring was originally 1.28" thick and is now .78" thick; 0.5" (40% of the bonding ring was machined off).
* Best estimate of the 250's flexplate output is about 185 HP (with 25% loss through the C-4, 140 HP reaches the rear wheels). That's only about 0.75 HP per cubic inch.
* The 250's HP peak is at about 5,200 RPM, but the engine very rarely sees 5,000 RPM. The MSD-6AL is set to a 5,500 RPM redline. I could set the redline a bit lower if it was advisable re: the machined harmonic balancer.
* The bottom end of the 250, although it does indeed have a cast crank, is otherwise built to minimize harmonics (it's statically and dynamically balanced) and to control crankshaft and main bearing deflection (the ARP main studs).

Again, with respect to everyone who weighed in, I'm seriously considering trying this. If the reduced material in the machined bonding ring allows stronger harmonics, I would think I would feel that right away since I have solid motor mounts. I've even wondered if some kind of vibration meter would allow me to monitor the crankshaft harmonics.

Thank you,
Bob

 

[BCOWANWHEELS]

I hope your not asking for trouble cutting the balancer off into the bonding material. you know how a balancer eats things up when they come apart..............

 

[chad]

"... kind of vibration meter would allow me…"
my thought as well.
Have anything currently that runs 1,500 to 4,500?
Even a center drilled wooden dowel in a 4 1/2 inch grinder… to hold the HB as it spun.

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, I slept on this problem and I have a couple of thoughts, First I would not be leery of electric fans, my friends Saturday night stock car has a two fan setup, I don't remember where they are from. What is the likely hood of both fans burning out? As for the senders and relay, you could hot wire it if needed. Do you have room behind the engine? You may to be able to use the front tranny crossmember bolts in the rear chassis holes. A good welder can fabricate front crossmember mounts. The Chevy guys use a concave piece in the firewall for distributor clearance. That may work for your valve cover if needed. I think putting the radiator or a different radiator in front of the support (condenser style) may be problematic. Maybe the radiator support could be reworked to allow the radiator to be angled forward at the bottom like on a Corvette. Good luck.

 

[62Ranchero200]

@B RON CO,

Thank you for your suggestions.

I had not thought of having two electric fans (maybe a "pusher" and a "puller"). I agree that this setup would be very reliable. People don't understand why I'm reluctant to trust a single electric fan. A couple of weeks ago I was on a routine trip across town when I got into a section of a highway that was under construction. All exits were closed and there was no shoulder to pull off on for about five miles, with traffic moving more slowly than 5 mph. Locals refer to this area on Highway 290 as the "wall of death":



If you car overheats here you have two choices: shut it off and block that lane for everyone behind you, making an already terrible traffic situation even worse (HTH would a tow truck get to you?); or keep going and flirt with engine damage.

As far as pushing the engine back, I have maybe an inch before clearances would get tight, not just on the valve cover but also the bellhousing and transmission. It's an early "round body" Ranchero, originally equipped with a 3-speed, which was smaller in diameter than the currently installed C-4. The transmission tunnel isn't large enough to push the bellhousing much farther back without extensive "big friendly hammer" modifications. I'd also have to redrill or recreate the motor mounts, and possibly section the drive shaft. My biggest worry, though, would be the frame; which was originally equipped with the 3-speed crossmember, then redrilled for the C-4 crossmember. If I moved the crossmember back, lining the front crossmember holes up with the rear holes in the frame, I'd want to drill new rear crossmember holes; that would make six sizable holes in each frame rail. The frame rails are not that large to begin with, and are almost certainly somewhat compromised by rust. To really have structural integrity, I'd probably have to cut out that section of the frame and patch in a new section.

Thanks
Bob

 

[bubba22349]

Hi Bob, I am glad am not seeing that kind of traffic very much any more, it was an everyday thing in LA too! After we moved here my wife I used to laugh about how the people in Flagstaff were complaining about the afternoon traffic in the downtown section (it's only a few miles long) yeah it dose slow down quite a bit but it's nothing like yours above.

Do you happen to have some pictures of the front dress of your engine showing all the clearances you have? One thing I am thinking is about that Flex type fan because of the curve of the blades its going to need more room then any OEM Ford fan say like a Clutch type. Personally I like the thermostatic type clutch units they can free up some HP too over a fixed fan when you are at cruse speeds or the engine is running cool enough. Good luck

 

[62Ranchero200]

@bubba22349,

Below is the best photo of my engine that I have access to at the moment (I'm working today and at my office; most of my photos are at home):



This is not the best angle nor the best lighting conditions. The situation is as follows:

* The unused second pulley on the stock harmonic balancer sticks out about 3/4" past the first pulley
* This forces use of a 3/4" fan spacer, otherwise the back (engine side) of the fan strikes the second pulley on the harmonic balancer
* The 3/4" pulley pushes the fan out towards the radiator. The fan blades never struck the radiator core, but the bottom radiator tank protrudes out past the core and the fan blades did strike that. Lacking a better solution at the time, I simply trimmed about 1" off of the tip of each fan blade, turning my 14" fan into a 12" fan.
* I have a 9" "pusher" electric fan in front of the radiator. It helps but I wouldn't trust it to keep the engine cool if stuck for an hour or more in extremely slowly moving traffic. To put a larger "pusher" fan in front of the radiator, I'd have to cut into the valance (behind the front bumper) or do away with the hood latch (going with hood pins instead).

The fan (a Flex-A-Lite nylon flex fan) is advertised as "low profile".

Wouldn't a clutch take up some horizontal space (between the engine and radiator)?

Thanks
Bob

 

[CoupeBoy]

For a crossmember, you should consider something like SoCar72 made a few years back when he installed a T5 into his 63 4dr.
T5 Crossmember for 63 Falcon - Pix -- FordSix Forum

Then the transmission connects to the crossmember using this adapter.

Using his measurements, you could replicate the crossmember itself, and then make modifications to the transmission connection bracket to make it longer (reach farther back)

It would reinforce your existing floor support, and give you plenty of space for the transmission.
Also if you got a little creative with it, since this was designed for a T5 you could potentially lower your drivetrain allowing for more space around the bellhousing area to set the motor back even farther.

For the motor mounts, assuming you have this style

or this style

I think I would be tempted to find a piece of flat steel, drill holes to match the original vertical (mount to engine) holes, and then a second set to match the offset that you want/need.
Then I'd probably go overkill by bolting and welding the plate to the original motor mounts using the forward set of holes and bolting the plate to the engine using the rear set of holes.

Regarding the harmonic balancer, I know you already have some money invested in yours, but this thread is an interesting read.
Harmonic Balancer Source for 250 I6 -- FordSix Forum (circa 2007)
It has some interesting quotes in it, like this..

I'm not sure if the crank diameters are the same for the 4.6 and 250.
The 4.6 hub is definately shorter than the 250 so maybe a spacer would work. I didn't try it to see if the 4.6 would work after I saw one at a Ford display. It didn't look very close to the 250 one at all, so I just dropped it and found an aftermarket vendor for one.

The hub for the 300 one is the same as a 250. But it would install closer to the timing chain cover than a 250 one. But it would probably still work. And it you use a spacer than that would solve that problem.
Will

GRR, rush hour traffic is the worse..

(I kid, this was actually on interstate 90 about 60 miles East of Rapid City, but it could have been any interstate in ND)

have fun,
-ron

 

[bubba22349]

Bob, the clutch units usally take the place of a spacer and the fan bolts on from the rear of the clutch unit so the clutch sits a little to the front of the fan blades is about 1/2 to 3/4 inch. Looking at your picture (though can't tell in the front between the grille area) but It sure looks like you could move radiator forward enough to get everthing to fit and play nice with each other. Last time I did something like that I used some thin wall (around a 1/8 inch or less) of 1 to 1 1/4 inch square tubing and welded up a frame work to mount radiator too and also use it to span across between the fenders it turned out nice and strong and was reasonably light weight too. Oh and I made it so it would unbolt for fast and easy engine removal too. X2 if you could move the engine back some that's a bonus cause it will move your center of gravity back and that can also help improve the handling. Good luck edited

 

[chad]

Huston
VS
Fargo
:roll:

Gotta Love It!

 

[bubba22349]

I have drove on that hyway quite a few times. The one thing about the North Dakota plains is you can see so far off into the distance you might think it's not as far as it really is!

 

[BCOWANWHEELS]

looks coooold. when I was a trucker I prayed to GOD to not let me break down there.