All Small Six My 65, 200 inline rebuild

[goldfinger1957]

Ok, it's been a while but this is what's been done.
Pulled the 200 and rebuilt the head. Nothing fancy but put 1.50 & 1.75 intake and exhaust valves along with 302 springs and viton seals. Also took .090 off of head. ( small log head )
Bottom end. New silverlite flat top pistons and moly ring set. (+.030 over) New 264/274 cam, bearings ect. ect....
Oil pump, fuel pump, ARP fasteners, water pump, new harmonic balancer, double roller timing chain, push rods, stainless steel headers and DUI distributor ( street/strip)...along with new clutch assembly for the " on a tree "...No A/C and no Power steering. Waiting on the Weber 32/36 conversion carburetor with manual choke.
All that said I've got 3 qurstions:
1. Without a Dyno, any guesses as to the available horse power or am I still looking at 120 hp after all this ?
2. Given i ordered the DUI without all the additional information provided will this need to be "revurved" and is it really necessary?
3. Short of a blower, nitrous or a turbo charger is their anything I'm missing to get the most power I can out of this assembly ? ( roller rockers were pricey)...
Not sure what else I could do, besides the 250 cylinder head swap which I'm not doing. And wondering if I should just spend a little more money and buy the EFI rather than the Weber 32/36.
I've pretty much fillowed the Ford Six Performance handbook .
Looking forward to your input. Go ahead..I can take it...lol

 

[Jmustang_65]

1. I think your still in the 120-140hp
2. Yes, need to recurve. Hei has too much vacuum advance.
3. I would've converted that head to a 2v and added 2100 v1.08 to it or a Weber 38 to increase power or better yet a sniper 2300 efi.

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, Do you know what the compression is? Do have a picture of the bottom of the head after milling? Did you CC the combustion chamber after you had it milled. Good luck

 

[bubba22349]

With the parts you used in your rebuild you should have quite a good improvement in power over your orginal engine. As to your question if there is anything else you could do to get the most power out of your engine combo. Here are some things if you haven't already done them. Best of luck.

1. Did you degree the Camshaft?

2. Back cutting the valves add's some more flow.

3. With your bigger Intake and Exhaust valves installed you could pocket port just under the valves this give's the biggest bang for the buck or the time invested. This is opening up and blending the ports from the valve seat throat down and just into the ports. Narrowing or tapering into a teardrop of the valve guides in direction of flow also helps too.

4. Porting the Exhaust ports is also wroth some improvement.

5. This one really helps for use with one of the 1V to 2V Carb adapter plates you can grind out the Carb Base Hole of your stock Log Intake Manifold making it larger. I think that these 1960 to 1968 small Log Heads are about the range of a 1 1/2 to maybe 1 5/8 inch hole when adding a 1V to 2V Carb adapter plate the carb hole needs to be opened up to least 1 3/4 inch, 2 inch is better yet and some have even gone up to as much as a 2 1/8 inch opening but you need to leave at least 1/4 inch wide for the gasket sealing area. Next add a generous radius of 3/16 to 1/4 inch on the bottom of the hole leading into the longest runs of the log and the one side next to the center intake ports that really helps the flow to be able to turn the corner into the log, you can also put a 1/8 inch radius or more on the far side of the hole. Then the base of the 1V to 2V carb adapter is also opened up at the 1V outlet hole going onto the log so that it match's up with the new carb intake hole opening. It's been proven to be worth spending the time and the small cost doing a little grinding there to gain a little extra power and intake flow for your 2V Carb swap.

6. Was the block Zero Decked? If not do you know how far the Pistons are "Down the Hole" from the block deck?

7. Did you happen to CC the Head Combustion Chambers? My guess is you might be at 50 or 48 CC's

 

[goldfinger1957]

With the parts you used in your rebuild you should have quite a good improvement in power over your orginal engine. As to your question if there is anything else you could do to get the most power out of your engine combo. Here are some things if you haven't already done them. Best of luck.

1. Did you degree the Camshaft?

2. Back cutting the valves add's some more flow.

3. With your bigger Intake and Exhaust valves installed you could pocket port just under the valves this give the biggest bang for the buck or the time invested. This is opening up and blending the ports from the valve seat throat down and just into the ports. Narrowing or tapering into a teardrop the valve guides in direction of flow helps too.

4. Porting the Exhaust ports is also wroth some improvement.

5. This one really helps for use with the 1V to 2V Carb adapter plates you can grind out the Carb Base Hole of your stock Log Intake Manifold making it larger. I think that these 1960 to 1968 small Log Heads are about 1 1/2 to maybe 1 5/8 inch when adding a 1V to 2V Carb adapter plate the carb hole needs to be opened up to least 1 3/4 inch, 2 inch is better yet and some have even gone up to 2 1/8 inch opening but you need to leave at least 1/4 inch for the gasket sealing area. Next add a generous radius of 3/16 to 1/4 inch on the bottom of the hole leading into the longest runs of the log and the side next to the center intake ports that really helps the flow to be able to turn the corner, you can put a 1/8 inch radius on the far side of the hole. Then the base of the 1V to 2V carb adapter is also opened up at the 1V outlet hole so that it matchs up with the new intake hole opening. It's been proven to be worth spending the time and small cost doing a little grinding there to gain a little extra power and intake flow for your 2V Carb swap.

6. Was the block Zero Decked? If not do you know how far the Pistons are "Down the Hole" from the block deck?

7. Did you happen to CC the Head Combustion Chambers? My guess is you might be at 50 or 48 CC's

The cylinder head had .090 taken 9ff of it. I didn't zero deck the block...just milled it flat. I switched from dish to flat pistons and at tdc it still has .020 or so . Didn't want to zero deck that too since I took so much off the head. The cam was degreed. The valves were back cut and area buffed in to avoid shrouding. I looked at opening up the exhaust ports but they looked fairly smooth and from what I've read a lot of work for little gain. Grinding out the carb base hole sounds interesting. I haven't heard about that but that would make sense. And smoothing out the inside of the log tube sounds great except for having the right tools in order to accomplish that task. Thats why I was wondering if an EFI was the way to go. I wish I knew the cc of the head now but I don't know what it is. 50 or 48 sounds about right. I'm gonna assume its also around 10:1 at least . The intake flow will of course be important. Air, gas, detonation & repeat.
Thanks. You gave me a lot to think about. Once its all back together I've found a couple of shops not too far away that has Dyno testing. Would love to see 150 hp but that may be a stretch.

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, opening up the carb opening is a great idea. And you should remove the head so you can clean out all the chips. So you have a chance to cc the chambers. You can reuse the head gasket as long as the engine hasn't been run. Good luck

 

[bubba22349]

Hi goldfinger1967, so we can figure out some of the measurements of your 200 engine for a Static C.R. from the averages that are found for a stock 1965 Ford 200six.

1. Stock 200 Six Stroke is 3.126

2. A 200 Six Stock Bore is 3.680 and Bored out .030 is a 3.710 which equals a 202.76 Cu.In engine.

3. Stock 200 Six Pistons have a Compression Height (CH) of 1.511 putting the Piston .019 "Down the Hole" Piston Top to Block Deck surface. A Flat Top Replacement Piston typically has a 1.500 C.H. this would give you a .030 from Piston Top to the Block Deck. This can be very close but it would be better to know the true measurement for more accuracy.

4. A Stock Steel Shim 200 Six Head Gasket was .025 crush thickness a Replacement Composition Head Gasket such as a FelPro is a .050 thickness there are a couple of other Brands of head gaskets that are even less thickness.

5. Typically a Stock 1963 1/2 to 1968 Ford 200 Six Heads Combustion Chambers measures in at 52 CC's (they can sometimes measure larger too like 53 or even less like 51 CC ) and on average for every .010 mill cut done to the head you will reduce it by 2 CC's. So .090 divided by .010 X 2 plus the extra .025 of Head gasket thickness gives you minus 13 CC's we would than be at 39 CC that would be a very small combustion chamber if it was cut that much. Now if any grinding was done inside the combustion chambers to unshroud them for those larger valves it would of course add back some CC's again. It's not really possible to be accurate on this heads CC volume measurement, but if that info is right you would be somewhere in the range of 10 3/4 to 11 1/4 to 1 for a Static C.R. It would take a little more work to come up with a Dynamic C.R. But without an accurate Head CC it's not so easy to do more than be in the ball park. What fuel do you plan on running? Best of luck

 

[goldfinger1957]

Hi goldfinger1967, so we can figure out some of the measurements of your 200 engine for a Static C.R. from the averages that are found for a stock 1965 Ford 200six.

1. Stock 200 Six Stroke is 3.126

2. A 200 Six Stock Bore is 3.680 and Bored out .030 is a 3.710 which equals a 202.76 Cu.In engine.

3. Stock 200 Six Pistons have a Compression Height (CH) of 1.511 putting the Piston .019 "Down the Hole" Piston Top to Block Deck surface. A Flat Top Replacement Piston tipicaly has a 1.500 C.H. this would give you a .030 from Piston Top to the Block Deck. This can be very close but it would be better to know the true measurement for more accuracy.

4. A Stock Steel Shim 200 Six Head Gasket was .025 crush thickness a Replacement Composition Head Gasket such as a FelPro is a .050 thickness there are a couple of other Brands of head gaskets that are even less thickness.

5. Typically a Stock 1963 1/2 to 1968 Ford 200 Six Heads Combustion Chambers measures in at 52 CC's (they can sometimes measure larger too like 53 or even less like 51 CC ) and on average for every .010 mill cut done to the head you wil reduce it by 2 CC's. So .090 divided by .010 X 2 plus the extra .025 of Head gasket thicknes gives you minus 13 CC's we would than be at 39 CC that would be a very small combustion chamber if it was cut that much. Now if any grinding was done inside the combustion chambers to unshoud them for those larger valves it would of corse add back some CC's again. It's not really possible to be accurate on this heads CC volume mesurment, but if that info is right you would be somewhere in the range of 10 3/4 to 11 1/4 to 1 for a Static C.R. It would take a little more work to come up with a Dynamic C.R. But without an accurate Head CC it's not so easy to do more than be in the ball park. What fuel do you plan on running? Best of luck

10.75 to 11.25 : 1 sounds good to me. I plan on using non ethanol 93 octane since most places around here carry it.
Matt over at Vintage Inlines was able to order me the Weber 32/36 card conversion so right new thats all I'm waiting for. I'll wrap the headers in heat tape tomorrow and try to drop it in the bay this week and then start buttoning it all up. The carb and DUI distributor will be the last thing I do. Im hoping when all is done I'll get 120-140 horses. Might be a stretch but I guess I'll know when I Dyno it and possibly get the distributor recurved for optimal power.

 

[bubba22349]

Stock 1965 200 has an 8.7 to 1 C.R. And 175 PSI cranking compression. If your engine has a 10.76 to Staic C. R. It will maybe have a 10.77 Dynamic C.R. This would show up as a cranking compression of 240 PSI. So that's another way you can find out were your at.

 

[bubba22349]

That's a good looking Falcon what transmission are you going to use, is it a 3.03 I hope so to be able to handle all the power your going to be putting out?

 

[goldfinger1957]

Stock 1965 200 has an 8.7 to 1 C.R. And 175 PSI cranking compression. If your engine has a 10.76 to Staic C. R. It will maybe have a 10.77 Dynamic C.R. This would show up as a cranking compression of 240 PSI. So that's another way you can find out we're your at.

Not knowing much about dynamic C.R. is 240 PSI a good thing ?? I'm thinking yes..

 

[goldfinger1957]

Its just a C4. 3 on a tree...

 

[goldfinger1957]

A WORK IN PROGRESS

 

[goldfinger1957]

 

[bubba22349]

That's excellent choice a C4 will can work really good and they are quite strong too. They are a big favorite for me I put in the TransGo shift Kits in the Select Shift Valve Body's and then add a small Aux. Trans cooler for long life. Then put in the right Serov Cover and an adjustable Vacuum Module.

 

[goldfinger1957]

I'll have to do some research on what you're describing. All I've done is purchase a new clutch assembly set that I'll need to bolt on to thr engine prior to hooking up. A Trans Go shift kit ?? And an adjustable Vacuum Module?? Looks like I've go some additional reading to do...

 

[bubba22349]

Sorry you said above that you have a C4 that's the commonly used name for Fords famous 3 Speed Automatic Trans since they first came out in 1964 so I just jumped to that conclusion, my above info won't apply to a manual Trans. But with the picture above of an 8 1/2 inch Clutch Assembly & it's matching 132 Tooth Stepped Flywheel (also known as a Dog Dish) these were mostly only used with either the 2.77 3 speed manual Trans or the Dagenham 4 Speed manual Trans. So you have a 2.77 3 speed then if it's a 3 on the tree.

 

[goldfinger1957]

You're no doubt right on this one. I'm gonna assume its the 2.77 3 speed manual.
Is there something called a Top loader in a 3 speed manual on "the tree" ??
The Falcon is a 64 but the engine is a 65 since the 5 freeze plugs. Not sure about the transmission.

 

[bubba22349]

On your above question on EFI there is one site member "Wayne Clark" that did a 2V 2300 Holly Sniper EFI system on his Small Log head in his Mustang so you might check that out to see what you think. https://fordsix.com/threads/couple-...-pit-my-67-vert-200-6-with-2300-sniper.81745/

 

[bubba22349]

Yes the Top Loaders are also called a 3.03 those 3 speeds and 4 speeds are very strong plus they also have a Synchro in 1st gear lots more fun shifting than the older 2.77 Transmissions. Those 2.77 are also a top loader and are nicknamed a peanut or paper trans they aren't very strong though. The better 3.03 Trans normally is used only on the 1966 & 67 up Duel Bolt pattern blocks. But if your are able to find a 1964 / 65 Ford Econoline Bell housing these were a specially made bell used on the 144 Six's for use with the new for 1964 3.03 Trans and it will then bolt right up to your 1965 Block with that same flywheel & clutch that you already have as well as be able to use your 3 on the tree shift linkage too with a little work. Another choice is to use a T5 5.0 Mustang Trans with an Adapter plate then you can bolt that up using your bell housing and everything else too.