Roller cam for 250

[mike1157]

Spoke w/Crane cams today. He quoted me 1100.00 to custom build a mechanical roller out of tool steel stock. The price includes the material, the one time design/setup fee, rough machining the stock, cutting the distributor gear, rough grinding the cam, then heat treating, then finish grinding the cam.

I'm interested in the thing because I have a crossflow head going on mine, I'm using a kit built megasquirt w/o a good base fuel map to start from, and I don't want to worry about having to stop/start a fresh engine in the begging of a cam break in because of it. Additionally, I understand that the lack of zinc in engine oil nowadays is responsible for premature lobe failure on flat tappet camshafts.

The discussion I'm trying to start here involves the lifters for the thing. As we all know, in it's stock form, the block will not allow "linked" roller lifters to drop in. I was considering cutting 2" holes (6 of them) between, and directly above the lifter bores to create an access hole so that you could drop one lifter in w/ the link bar attached, and attach the other lifter to the link bar, and drop it in the other hole. Crane also said they could provide me w/ lifters that would allow me to do that, I just haven't looked at it hard enough to be sure it can even be done. I'm also concerned w/ block integrity after those access holes are cut.
What do you guys think?

 

[CNC-Dude]

Guys in Oz have used roller cams in their 250's before and didn't have to go to all that trouble to put lifters in their blocks. I don't think you'll have to do any block cutting to do it either.

 

[mike1157]

Guys in Oz have used roller cams in their 250's before and didn't have to go to all that trouble to put lifters in their blocks. I don't think you'll have to do any block cutting to do it either.

If you're talkin about an aussie 250, the lifter galley is waaaaay wider than a US 250.

 

[CNC-Dude]

The galley is wider side to side true, but the lifter spacing is the same as the US block front to back. I'm building a Crossflow roller engine also and using a US block. That's the info the experts from Oz have told me anyway.

 

[xctasy]

Your totally on the right track, Mike.But Isky via Pellegrini already make a cam for it, and it revs to 9500 in a 3.736" bore by 2.78" stroke 395 hp Turismo Catera 3000 engine, and has been doing so for years. Just with one 2-bbl Weber ID carb, too.

And Tigue Cams in Aussie


Historically, there have been two ways for the heavily bulkheaded and water gallery restricted log head block,


1. riffle drill through each bulkhead so a link bar can go in, or

2.just use slotted followers, and a bolt, as has been done for ages in Argentine race Falcon SP221's.

The Argentina TC 3000 and 4000 guys have been doing it for years with the Aussie/Argie medium deck 8.425" tall 188 and 221 based circuit engines

See http://www.pellegriniracing.com.ar/proy ... uturos.htm

http://www.pellegriniracing.com.ar/proy ... lcon_2.JPG
http://www.pellegriniracing.com.ar/proy ... nseba2.jpg

What do you think the slots and Frankenstein bolts are for? :rolflmao:

 

[CNC-Dude]

Yeah its been done for a long time in both Oz and Argentina. My guy in Oz is currently using link bar roller lifters in many of his Crossflow and non-Crossflow racing builds as well as the US engines also, he's been there and done that too, same lifter set fit both engines. No milling or drilling required, no custom parts just basic off the shelf stuff, just slight clearancing to the end lifter sets just as is required to install roller lifters in a 240/300 block. This has been figured out for a while, just no one wanted to step up and pay the price. But this is how it is being done currently by more than a few racers, so i'd says it's a pretty tried and true method.

 

[mike1157]

Well that's great news!.And thanks to all for the info. I looked at my block again today, and thought maybe after I open up the lifter galley to accommodate the pushrod angle, I'll be able to get the lifters linked up w/o cutting any extra holes. I'm gonna buy a pair of lifters to try it and see, but....

Now the next question:

If I use a link bar lifter like the Comp extreme series w/ the removable link bar, what lifter do I use?
I know that the 300 guys may be able to use 460 lifters,...can they be used in a 250 as well, or are the lifter bores too close together?


Tigue huh?..... I believe that I've tried to get him to return my inquiry. No reply.
I'll try him again.

 

[mike1157]

Just called Tigue.
They do in fact make a solid roller for this engine.
I'm currently waiting on their quote to come via email. Thanks Xctasy

The lifters like those pictured on the pelligrini website,....I think they may be obsolete?

 

[CNC-Dude]

I was told that the 429/460 link bar lifters also work in the small 6 engines.

 

[170-3tree]

So if I had a standard us engine, would I need to use a custom cam since the cross flow is series different in valves?

Definitely bookmarking this for a future build!

 

[xctasy]

The 460/429 385 lifter comes from Comp Cams in adjustable link bar.Cyco250 uses those . Check my posts of his Yellow Cortina. Info is in there.

He also runs a roller cam Like I plan to use on my engines. 256@50 584liit exh. 265@50 607lift 107split

http://www.xfalcon.com/forums/index.php ... low-story/

Note Page 3 of 3, and I quote

" 351c is not wide enough and 460 is too wide, the comp cams lifters are the only ones that have the removable tie bar and to do that they have a longer slot so they can go in and be used in the 250, You could try them but when the are riveted they would have to be cut and re welded to fit"

As noted, there are only two ways to roller follower a non x-flow block. Adjustable link bar roller followers still need a hole through a water jacket and cast iron to work.


You can drill a brace of holes the length of the engine through each bulkhead and use the Comp Cams slotted link bar

Or use the Argentine method, which works, and it doesns't matter a jot if its old fashioned, it copes with 9500 rpm, and thats why twelve bolts in the side of the block is much easier than longitundinal holes through the bulkheads.

 

[mike1157]

The 460/429 385 lifter comes from Comp Cams in adjustable link bar.Cyco250 uses those . Check my posts of his Yellow Cortina. Info is in there.

He also runs a roller cam Like I plan to use on my engines. 256@50 584liit exh. 265@50 607lift 107split

http://www.xfalcon.com/forums/index.php ... low-story/

Note Page 3 of 3, and I quote

" 351c is not wide enough and 460 is too wide, the comp cams lifters are the only ones that have the removable tie bar and to do that they have a longer slot so they can go in and be used in the 250, You could try them but when the are riveted they would have to be cut and re welded to fit"

As noted, there are only two ways to roller follower a non x-flow block. Adjustable link bar roller followers still need a hole through a water jacket and cast iron to work.


You can drill a brace of holes the length of the engine through each bulkhead and use the Comp Cams slotted link bar

Or use the Argentine method, which works, and it doesns't matter a jot if its old fashioned, it copes with 9500 rpm, and thats why twelve bolts in the side of the block is much easier than longitundinal holes through the bulkheads.

No, please don't misunderstand my comment.....I wasn't saying that they looked too old to use,..I was saying that they must obsolete because I couldn't find any. If they were as easy to get as the comp lifters, I'd use them in a minute, and you're right....it wouldn't matter a "jot" if I had 12 Frank-N-Bolts running through the side if it would get the job done.
If they weren't covered up by the intake, I'd run them "just because" it would confirm to the naysayers that it had a roller in there.
In the pics you posted it looks like he has fit those lifters through the existing hole in the deck w/o any access holes in the side of the block. It does look like he has had to clearance the top of the lifter bores where the link bar must have hit when the lifter got to the cam's base circle.

I listened to the guys engine vid you linked,...another great reason to go roller. That thing sounds killer. The cam I'm spec'ing will be much more tame than that though, and coupled to the turbo, and ran through a full length single exhaust, I'm sure mine'll sound much more tame than that. ( more like .500/.500 @ 230 on a 114 C/L).

There must be something going on w/ US email getting through to AU email addresses though,......I emailed Tigue from both of my email servers last night after talking w/ Tigue, and have yet to see a thing from them on either. I never heard back from Crow, Wade, or Kelford ( had to call Kelford)
I guess I'll wait till later this afternoon, and call Tigue again to see if they got my email w/ my engine specs.

Thanks again sir,...hopefully the Tigue quote will be less than the 1100.00 (and 8 weeks lead to build) Crane quoted.

 

[CNC-Dude]

I have the same issue with emailing some guys in Oz also, it was explained to me it has something to do with the time difference and the incoming server in Oz has trouble recognizing it. Pm's on forum boards seem to be the most effective, don't know what the difference would be though.
Keep me posted on the cost of the Tighe cam, that might prove to be a better alternative. Crane has just gotten stupid since they reopened. I got a ridiculous quote from them on making a Chevy 6 inline roller cam of about $1100 also. Crower and Isky quoted under $600 to do the same thing. I've got 6 pieces of 8620 bar stock ready to make my own if I need too, but its good to have other options if need be.

 

[mike1157]

I have the same issue with emailing some guys in Oz also, it was explained to me it has something to do with the time difference and the incoming server in Oz has trouble recognizing it. Pm's on forum boards seem to be the most effective, don't know what the difference would be though.
Keep me posted on the cost of the Tighe cam, that might prove to be a better alternative. Crane has just gotten stupid since they reopened. I got a ridiculous quote from them on making a Chevy 6 inline roller cam of about $1100 also. Crower and Isky quoted under $600 to do the same thing. I've got 6 pieces of 8620 bar stock ready to make my own if I need too, but its good to have other options if need be.

I called Tigue again at 5pm today, they confirmed that they got my email, and told me that they were in the process of spec'ing a few different grinds. He gave me a price to do the cam "around" 450.00 AUD plus shipping. Crow was gonna charge 80.00 shipping, so if they are close to that, it'll mean I'm in the roller to my door for a little less than 500.00

Crane was "reasonable" compared to the goob I spoke w/ at Comp Cams, he told me 15k. After laughing, I asked him how could crane do it for 1100.00 and he blathered something that it couldn't be done for less.

 

[CNC-Dude]

That is very reasonable for a ready to install roller cam even if it is half way around the world. The cheapest I have found with me supplying the round lobe blank for someone to finish grind was approx. $600 my cost. And that was for me to supply the core to start with. Also $450 AUD is under $400 USD, so that is a smokin' deal.

 

[mike1157]

That is very reasonable for a ready to install roller cam even if it is half way around the world. The cheapest I have found with me supplying the round lobe blank for someone to finish grind was approx. $600 my cost. And that was for me to supply the core to start with. Also $450 AUD is under $400 USD, so that is a smokin' deal.

Yeah considering it was gonna cost me 380.00 to have the flat tappet ground and shipped from Crow, I think it's very strong. I ordered one set of Comp Xtreme BBF roller lifters from Summit last night to see what I'm gonna have to do to get the damn things in the holes, ( the pair cost me 65.00.) So I guess we'll see what I've got myself in for here in a couple of days.

 

[xctasy]

From Jony Banquea, the almost 400 hp, 170 mph Turismo Carretera racers


I'd trust the stock block roller follower conversion stuff first.

See 9000 rpm at 4.48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-l3vt2CdrE


A brace of hollow journal seven bearing TC 3000 182 cubic inch race engines from 3.32 to 3.44 and 5.17-5.38 minutes.


That's what old fashioned roller followers can do!

 

[mike1157]

From Jony Banquea, the almost 400 hp, 170 mph Turismo Carretera racers


I'd trust the stock block roller follower conversion stuff first.

See 9000 rpm at 4.48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-l3vt2CdrE


A brace of hollow journal seven bearing TC 3000 182 cubic inch race engines from 3.32 to 3.44 and 5.17-5.38 minutes.


That's what old fashioned roller followers can do!

Yeah, but where can they be purchased? No habla espanol.

 

[xctasy]

Since dancin' knitting needle engines are the best US invention since sliced bread, the work out solution may be from Argentina or Aussie, but it uses 100% US parts, and SoCal Hot Rod ideas Nothin New Since Henry.... Hands down, it would be the Crower 66274 lifter, sans linkbar, and with the kit they supply, using the SBF/335/385 lifter bore. And a Tigue, Crow Cams Australia or US made roller cam. Using a US supplier will be the best idea, as they'll back you up.

There are three lifters i'd consider, and the Aussie method of the US link roller follower retainer is the last I'd use.
1. The Pellegrini is best.
2. the Crower 66274,
3.then the Comp Cams adjustable link bar (IIRC, a white box Crower item supplied for CC)

The ones shown above are not as easy to get.They are custom lifters which use elements of a non turn Radius style flathead Ford system

See http://midstateantiquestockcarclub.com/flat_heads4.html


but instead of having an inserted bore track, the bolt becomes the locating button.

A similar type are the Crower 66274 Groove lock roller lifter, which like the old flathead radius lifter, requires drill jig to install, BUT DOESN'T NEED A SPIDER OR LINK BAR.

The industry is moving towards the reduced blow by Argentine system in small steps, like MRL Performance Solid Big Block or or Howards Cams UltraMax Hydralic roller lifters, with a slotted vent hole on both sides (solid) or one side (hydraulic).

Herceg and Pellegrini make a kit, but it comes with some other bits and needs a 12 bolt locator kit, and its ~ US$3800 all up.It is the whole deal, 100% reliable and used since the year dot.

I'm lucky, I have Spanish friends!

The Aussie Holden guys can fit link bars (so do the Argentine TC4000 230 Chev L6 based engines), but discussed the issues.

http://www.gmh-torana.com.au/forums/top ... 202-block/

The US Competitions Cams adjustable link follower set up with the later 00's Tigue designed roller set up is easiest.

There was another X-flow item first made by Crow cams in Australia in 1990 to 1991 according to Ray Spence, but only one racer in Econo class, a Texan called JR, used it. It was never a common production item.

The pros and cons trade off is therefore between the classic Tigue/US CC adjustable link follower and an Argie style bare minimum twelve bolt porcupine holding bolt set up.

For cylinders 1 and 6 in the non cross flow block, it means the link bar won't fit through.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb30 ... 0_1393.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb30 ... 0_1389.jpg
See http://fanafalcon.com.ar/foro/index.php ... 566.0.html

then see http://translation.babylon.com/spanish/to-english/

 

[mike1157]

Since dancin' knitting needle engines are the best US invention since sliced bread, the work out solution may be from Argentina or Aussie, but it uses 100% US parts, and SoCal Hot Rod ideas Nothin New Since Henry.... Hands down, it would be the Crower 66274 lifter, sans linkbar, and with the kit they supply, using the SBF/335/385 lifter bore. And a Tigue, Crow Cams Australia or US made roller cam. Using a US supplier will be the best idea, as they'll back you up.

There are three lifters i'd consider, and the Aussie method of the US link roller follower retainer is the last I'd use.
1. The Pellegrini is best.
2. the Crower 66274,
3.then the Comp Cams adjustable link bar (IIRC, a white box Crower item supplied for CC)

The ones shown above are not as easy to get.They are custom lifters which use elements of a non turn Radius style flathead Ford system

See http://midstateantiquestockcarclub.com/flat_heads4.html


but instead of having an inserted bore track, the bolt becomes the locating button.

A similar type are the Crower 66274 Groove lock roller lifter, which like the old flathead radius lifter, requires drill jig to install, BUT DOESN'T NEED A SPIDER OR LINK BAR.

The industry is moving towards the reduced blow by Argentine system in small steps, like MRL Performance Solid Big Block or or Howards Cams UltraMax Hydralic roller lifters, with a slotted vent hole on both sides (solid) or one side (hydraulic).

Herceg and Pellegrini make a kit, but it comes with some other bits and needs a 12 bolt locator kit, and its ~ US$3800 all up.It is the whole deal, 100% reliable and used since the year dot.

I'm lucky, I have Spanish friends!

The Aussie Holden guys can fit link bars (so do the Argentine TC4000 230 Chev L6 based engines), but discussed the issues.

http://www.gmh-torana.com.au/forums/top ... 202-block/

The US Competitions Cams adjustable link follower set up with the later 00's Tigue designed roller set up is easiest.

There was another X-flow item first made by Crow cams in Australia in 1990 to 1991 according to Ray Spence, but only one racer in Econo class, a Texan called JR, used it. It was never a common production item.

The pros and cons trade off is therefore between the classic Tigue/US CC adjustable link follower and an Argie style bare minimum twelve bolt porcupine holding bolt set up.

For cylinders 1 and 6 in the non cross flow block, it means the link bar won't fit through.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb30 ... 0_1393.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb30 ... 0_1389.jpg
See http://fanafalcon.com.ar/foro/index.php ... 566.0.html

then see http://translation.babylon.com/spanish/to-english/

Thanks, You are a plethora of great information as usual.
I really like those Crower groovelock lifters, and w/ the jig looks like all I'd need to do was stick that 1/8" bit that comes in the jig kit and drill it accordingly. ( Problem is, they are over twice the price of the Comp lifters)
I got the one CC removable link bar set coming specifically to test that very challenge. I plan to link the one lifter and drop it down hole #1. Once I get the lifter far enough down in the hole to get the bar in as well, I hope I can sneak the bar over between the water passage and the side of the block where (thanks to the now honkin', larger crossflow sized lifter galley, I'll try to link the other lifter to it.