twin Su Head, Triple weber Manifold

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I have picked up a pre x-flow log type head which had been adapted to take twin SU. It came complete with two fully rigged Su's and extractors. Has been lying around for a long time by the looks but if anyone is interested in buying it let me know. It has been cleaned up but would need to have the valves re seated to use in my opinion.

I also have a Lynx manifold for triple webers, (this is the type designed for modified log type manifold, not 2V) It is a kit with manifold and screw in studs, you would need to modify your own cylinder head. I considering selling both items if anyone is interested.
 
That first unit would give excellent performance and economy. Are they HS-6 or HS-4 carbs?

I am having a hard time getting $100/pr for used HS-6s but the fact of yours being a package should help saleability.

Why not post some pictures?
 
I am in the process of documenting the whole setup so that in future if people are interested in building a similar setup they can work from the drawings. The person who set this up had indeed put a lot of thought and planning into it if you ask me, It certainly isn't just thrown together.

The cylinder head is back at school in the workshop, so I will post some pics next week.
 
It certainly sounds cool. I assume it's a head off a larger engine - 250 or 221?
 
I believe it is off a 250 becuase it came from a guy who was into XY falcons, but i havent checked the numbers yet. I will check them and put the details up with the pictures next week though so watch this space.

Has anyone on this forum run triple 45 webers on a 250 if so pm me I would like to see photos and hear about how it went and so on and so forth. I will be running triple 45's on my 2V when the car is back on the road and would love to see how others have set them up.
 
Talk to Jeff (aussie7mains). He ran triple Dell'ortos on a 221/2V and said it went like a scalded cat.

I'm not totally sold on them as a street setup; the CD type carbs are better there IMO. Presently messing with a Triumph that has 42DCOEs and it fouls plugs pretty fast if living much below 4000 RPM.

Point being, that if you jet 45s conservatively, the motor isn't really operating in the range where a Weber type carb is of appreciable benefit over CD type carbies. Factory manuals for the E49 Charger reiterate the need to gun the motor inbetween adjusting tune, to avoid plug fouling.

E-Type sixes are a good example of my ideas as expressed above; you see very few converted to Weber 45s compared to the number running triple HS-8s.

Regards, Adam.
 
Adam is correct.


The issue with DCOE 45's verese HD-8's is that the SU's make more usable low end torque, only about 10% less upper end power, but need more tuning to ensure the linkages and needles and dashpots are in calibration. Balance is an issue with CD's and any SU's verses the DHLA's or DCOE's. The inital calibration envelope is very, very hard to perfect when you add twice as many extra fuel distributions points. They are also hypersensitive to intake air temperature, ignition curve , engine heat, cold start strangling, and vibration, especially on a hemi (OHC Ford, DOHC Jag XK, Aston Martin DB), or semi hemi sixes (like the 265 Hemi and 250 X-flow).

These frequently foul plugs because the warm up phase is lousy with Webers or DellOrto's. Never is a proper heat stove used. Each carb has twice as many progression circuits, jets and air correctors than an SU. Since the calibration is a compromise which cannot be trimmed to suit condtions, and the initail calibration must be spot on to the worst case condtions, it is often out. Chrysler Australias calibration for the E37/38/48 and 49's was based on a 6000 mile cruise around Italy in an early VG Hardtop, and it was at best a compromise over likely altitidues and operating temparatures. The carbs were just like DB5 or DB6 Webers, and rather like Ford's XE EFI using the 632 CSIA auto calibration for its LE-II EFI, the benchmarking was done on a European car before being transferred to the Aussie car.


David Vizard says there are no pre-jetted combinations, as there is always at least another 5% to 10% by blueprinting the carb, and further dyno tuning. Its nothing for a perhaps 300 hp engine to gain 40 hp (13 %) by ideal jetting and realted optimisation. With the SU's, you can get very close to idlea jetting becasue the needle does the same as a throttle vane in a Bosch K or LE II set-up. It varies like a MAP sensor or Vane meter, while inmproving vaccum. That's why HIF44, 6, 7, 8 carbs survived into the emission era, but the Webers and DellOrto's died off in 1978 to 1985. There was a huge range of very advanced upgrades by Skinner Union in 1978 to 1990, with a very simple but complex in operation part throttle lean-off device, and bulk density fuel level calibration, and the dreaded Air Valve on the throttle butterfly which lost about 15 cfm of flow an an HIF 38, but allowed the car to pass the Eurpoean Common Market emission regs. So its far easier with triple SU's, they are like three Bosch K jetronic systems in one.


The base line numbers by way of example are 282 gross with triple HD8's, and 314 gross with triple Webers in a twin cam DB6. That's the 10% gain with Webers I refer to. The same carbs in an E49 Charger was reported by Leo Leonard to give 295 hp net blueprinted or 306 hp factory gross or some such.

For maximum power figures, the Weber and especially the Dellorto are great in a race, but come at expense of low end tractorbility, where cars spend most of there time on the road. Here the SU's excell.

Actually, the 4 Liter DB5GT, DB6/DBS and 265 Hemi are undercarbed. The recommended venturi size from Webers rpm/capcity chart was about 42 mm at 5500 rpm, not the 38 to 40mm at 4800 to 5300 rpm which was all Weber 45 DCOE's can go to. The Dellorto DHLA 48 with 42 mm chokes is a way better carb at 5500 rpm, and produces a huge gain in performance. Only issue is that bigger DHLA 48's and 50's and Weber DCO 48's and 50's have always been mega expensive, and are race only items which have no cold start enrichment ciruits, which makes cold fouling even worse.

When doubled on a V12 LP400 Countach, six DCOE 45 mm Webers gave 375 hp at 8000 rpm, and less torque than DCOE40's. Imagine the torque with a 5340 cc Jag XK-E V12 with six HD8'S!
 
All I can add to that (apart from the observation that we are basically agreeing for once!) is from a physical space viewpoint, a larger CD type carb than HS-6 gets pretty close to the exhaust. The HIF series integral body carbs are also at significant risk of heatsoak.

With either Weber or SU general style carbs, a reflective heat shield is almost compulsory - polished alloy will do fine. Some sly work in fabrication could make this a fuel drip catcher that directed stray petrol away from the exhaust and out the shock tower. Also two small onboard extinguishers as just one is apparently often inadequate.

Webers generally call for bonnet locks. Too many dollars, too few bolts not to cage them up.
 
Wow, thanks for that info, I certainly have a lot more work to do before i get to that stage, (like paint the car) but it gives me a lot of things to think about, especially under bonnet fires. I thought I was more likely to encounter fires with the holley on there, (i already had several).

I was intending to replace the old walker extractors with a decent quality set. Ceramic coated in order to reduce the under bonnet temperatures, do you still think it is a good idea to run a heat sheild? I heard that pacemaker make good qulity extractors, what are your experiences.?

I have found that with the holley, running the thing from cold was an absolute dog, even after i re connected the heater in the manifold. I always needed to let the car warm up properly before driving which is not a bad thing anyway.
 
Ok triple weber/dellortos, when I ran dellortos I had NO trouble with plug fouling etc. the main issue was getting the things in a cortina TC body shell without chucking the booster. I did do it but had to make a very short manifold. Went in much easier in a XW, as to power I had a 290 degree cam on modified 250-2v head and would say it had a good 240bhp from 221ci and was very torquey down low, i particularly like the rock steady idle (pop pop pop). However fuel economy, there wasnt any.
for the cost now days Id go for 6 throttles with separate runners and injectors right at the outer end, see the V8 supercars.
this would be chaeper to build (webers are available for around $700 ea) and you dont need buckects of jets emulsion tubes venturis etc, just dial in the MAP. Performance is equivilent, but much easier and versatile.
A7M
 
To go at a slight tangent - how did you vent the crankcase? I mean, did you apply some manifold vacuum to the internals of the motor?
 
aussie7mains
Great to hear from someone who has run triple's on a pre x flow. I would love to hear more about it, I am running a 280 degree cam on a port matched and polished 2v with hardened valve seats etc. Bottom end is fully balanced with XF pistons (dished) and all deburred and all that.

I am looking forward to installing the Weber's, and have found a carbie specialist to tune them correctly for me. I did consider running an injection system, but decided against it to keep the right feeling for the whole car. I mean I thought it would not be right to integrate electronic injection into a car which is being restored with the original pushbutton AM radio...

Besides I had my Soarer to fulfill all my technology needs...

yes i desire a specific image from my project, and I really think the webers will be a big part of that image.
 
Addo would i be wrong in saying that the 221 crank case is vented to atmosphere just behind the distributor there.
 
Ideally, you want a crankcase vacuum. It's worth an appreciable amount in power and oil conservation because of superior ring sealing. If you run trumpets off the DCOEs then it creates another question of where to evacuate the crankcase to.

There would probably need to be a six-way split so that crankcase emissions were equally distributed to all runners - and then carbs jetted with that factored in.

The ceramic coatings such as Jet-Hot, when applied correctly inside and outside the pipes, make a significant and documented difference. Pacemaker certainly have made good exhausts in the past, whether quality remains the same I cannot say - but others who have purchased recently are quite happy.

If the Holley is flooding, it sounds like the return line and regulator are two important first steps. You will certainly need them later on with the other modifications; it's easier to dial in a few extra controls now than try to treat the whole thing later. Eliminate potential variables in succession and it makes for easier tracing back in event of faults.

From memory - food for thought. A fellow in Adelaide had an E49 replica and he started to lock the bonnet because his mates kept swapping plug leads. They then swapped a couple by getting at it from under the car; it backfired and caught alight. By the time he had the bonnet open, at least one carb was ruined.
 
Great mates!

I was considering running an electric vac pump, although when I was recently at a chrysler show, I noted various setups on the hemis there and saw quite a few, one was running a balance pipe to all six runners like you suggest, but most were running the booster of a single runner and venting the crankcase I assume to atmosphere via a hose running from the cap.
 
Also is anyone else running the exhaust splitter for 3&4, I have seen quite a few pics of it from the states, is anyone making one here or will i need to make my own?
 
Most people here will tell you the exhaust port divider is a WOFTAM.

Where you get vacuum from to power the VH-40, doesn't matter so much as it has no impact on air/fuel ratio.
 
OK
I ran the vacuum lines, 1 to PCV to 1 intake tract, 1 to Booster to another, never had any problems, crankcase intake through oil filler as on XW XY tetc.
221s on XT has hole near dizzy open, on XW it had a PCV system and was plugged with cup plug.
The cam I ran in my 221 was 41-75 Waggot (296 degrees at lash solid lifters) which was fairly lumpy with a single Holley type of thing, but smooth with triples.
A7M
 
That is a very agressive camshaft i think, what idle speed did you have, and also were you running manual or auto trans, If auto you would have needed a stall at about 3500 wouldnt you?

I plan to run a 2500 stall and 3.23 diff. I am using 215/75 tyres so that makes the ratio closer to a 2.92 with standard tyres. If I were running the 221 i would definatly run 3.5, but I want to keep the 250 in its highest torque range for a longer time. With the 3.5 diff the car is exceptionally jumpy and exciting around corners but run out of puff at 100mph.
 
I would NEVER consider an auto, I always run top loader and have run 3 speed BW trannys. The engined idled like a stocker with the triples, if it wasnt for the pop pop pop from the carbs youd never know it had a cam like that, thats why I liked the triples so much. get yourself a manual tranny, autos are for girls!
A7M
 
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