12.7:1 compression 3.3 with stock 256 cam

xctasy

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I'm planeing my 1963 170 head 120 thou for a 30 cc chamber on my otherwise stock 3.3 1981 engine. I'll be running water injection and three mechanical secondary carbs to help get good fuel distribution and allow it to avoid lean missfires. As stated in the header, cam is 256 stock 1981 version. Rods are cast. No tube headers, stock emissions, 91 regular fuel to be used. Water injection is via three 16 thou brass water squirters and operated by XF Falcon knock sensor and water bottle containing only water at 45 psi. When it knocks, it applies water.

I plan to bump up the base timing to 16 degrees, lock back total advance to 28 degrees, and although the vac advance will still be hooked up, I plan to disable its action.

Any problems I should anticipate? Engine is in good shape, with good compressions and has travelled about 42,000 miles since birth.

This is sort of a David Vizard, Larry Widmer Soft Head Bruce Crower and Miller Bros design, where very high compression is used with a minimal volume piston and moderate cam timing.
 
Wow let us know if you get away with that.
I ran 12.5cr in a Triumph Spitfire w/stock cam a while back, steady diet of Sunoco 260 (back when you could get that). It was happy but not on any other pump gas.

Other than a MUCH bigger cam, keeping it cool (160F or so), hopefully you are near zero-deck, that will help, its gonna be tough to make that 12.7 work on 91 octane IMHO.
 
Your regular gas, we call it 91 RON, its your 87 (ron+mon/2) octane I think. We have 95 RON and 98 RON available too, pretty well everywhere, but I don't believe in extra octane when water or water alcohol are around. Methonal, ethanole or acetone is cheap to get.

Advice I had was the same, use some kind of 50/50 methonol water or a certain mix of ethonal, and use 1% TK7 additive. That way you can trade off the expensive additions, only needed when knocking, to using none at all, and the lowest grade gas at non knock times. Higher octane fuels are always cost to make the higher grade, plus a margin, because adding extra grades of fuel always costs gas company something. The fuel consumption of water alcohol mixes is down to 500 miles per gallon on triggered anti knock additive systems, much more if your drag racing. In a street situatiation, you can peg it back to 1000 mpg and still save a high compression engine from detonation.

Only thing is the vessels that hold alcohol need to be good enough for the purpose...standard washer bottles can split, but a mix of something fully imiscable (something that mixes at higher percentages unlike Ethanol) can eat through stuff.
 
Very interested in following this thread. I have also been thinking lately about the use water/meth injection and how rarely it would actually be needed in a daily driven car that might see full throttle, high load conditions like mine. I may put 500 miles on my daily driver and really get into once or twice. Maybe. That kind of leads me to think, why would I build an engine for a daily driver with low compression and cam timing and all around low efficiency, just to keep the thing out of detonation so rarely, while in the mean time it would be a total pig for the majority of the time it is driven.

My thought was running a hobbs switch and a homemade water/ meth setup to control any detonation only when needed, IE high load/low vacuum. This way I could build a low dollar engine with high compression and conservative cam timing to cruise/commute and get good mileage but not be in constant fear of detonation if I really need the happy pedal. For mine I planned to use an RCI fuel cell left over from a previous strip car with appropriate fittings to work with WW fluid.

Like I said, very interested in this idea. :beer:
 
That's ambitious, even with water injection. I think it will work, but put a big warning light on that water bottle. If it runs out, you might not like the "can of marbles" noises!

What's controlling the ignition knock sensor? Can you control that sensitivity? One of the big compromises on most stock systems is the programmed hysteresis. The ECU will pull way more timing out of the ignition than necessary to ensure that it goes away and then does not usually advance it again for several more cycles past the point of no knock. IN other words, the settings are very conservative in order to preserve the engine (warranty and durability issue).
 
Recharging the water won't be a problem. I only have the earlier 12.5 us gal 47 liter fuel tank, so I'm always carrying an extra couple of 20 L fuel tanks and a 5L water bottle. How on earth did people with an early 5.0 Mustang cope with a blQQdy 12.5 gal fuel tank?

I just use the standard alloy head II knock sensor and EEC-IV computer. Just like feeding false readings to the air temperature sensor on my dads 1982 CFI Corona 1SE 1812 engine, by resistor, you can trigger open (predefined) or closed loop(feeback) operation.

Like most two wire sensors (air temperature sensor and engine temperature sensor, oxygen sensor), knock sensors are voltage-generating sensors, they ground through the PCM, and in that way most cases generate 0-5V Analog Inputs from the sensor.

They are unlike voltage modifiers, the throttle position and mass air flow sensors, where they modify voltage via a V = IR lookup.


Its tuned to knock with a 4.1 alloy head and 22 cc piston, 53 cc chamber Falcon six.


Funny thing is, Ford did it all in some 1980 modles, the US V6 3.8 and Aussie 3.3/4.1 EEC-IV anti knock statergy is similar to the 1981-1983 351 EEC-III, where excitation in the + or - 150 Hz range triggers a spark retard. Or the altitude sensor, also referred to as the absolute pressure sensor in the yellow grommet Duraspark II module. Some early Brown grommet Duraspark 3 and Ford EEC-III (and the Gray Thick Film Integrated ignition EEC-IV systems) have a combination barometric pressure/MAP sensor called a BMAP sensor, combining both absolute pressure sensor and MAP sensor functions.
 
The tank is actually a bit over 15 US gallons, 12.4 Imperial. Smallish, but still far larger than the tank on my Mazdaspeed MX5.
 
MustangSix":2icguifo said:
The tank is actually a bit over 15 US gallons, 12.4 Imperial. Smallish, but still far larger than the tank on my Mazdaspeed MX5.


No, not in my case. Note that the 1981 was supposed to have the 63 liter tank, or US 15 gal, but pre 1980 was 47 liter 12.5 US gal.

My 1981 car is really latey 1980 build, and has the US 12.5 gal tank for some reason. Maybee for clearance for the non standard dual exhast with behind tank cross over pipe.
 
Jakes66snake":nv7cdm30 said:
What do you exspect to see HP wise? Or I should ask, what kind of rpm and torque curve do plan to see?


I expect 140 hp with three 32/36's, stock 256 cam, knock sensor , two cats and water and methanol injection. Hopefully, stock flywheel torque will go up from 156 lb-ft to about 210 lb-ft.

I'll probably get 165, but I'm not sure what will happen with tuning it for reduced detonation. On the Schjeldahl Bro's website http://www.falcon6handbook.com/compcalculator.asp, I should get a 50% boost on the basis of compression, but that doesn't allow for detonation tuning.


The arithmetic compression improvement is whopping 50%, which I think will yield an approximate 25% power improvement. The elimination of one point of 1-bbl fuel delivery and the application of a kind of semi independent runner induction improves the flow efficiency from a 40% air flow drop from an ideal 1.65" intake valve to just 15%, a flow increase without porting from the sucky 105 cfm to 127 cfm, or 22%. The same as an EO head with C1 head flow porting and tiny intake valves. There is also an ignition or lean misfire improvement from the out cylinders now getting enough fuel to eliminate over enriching to full fuel mixture, a common i6 ignition and fuel handicap. So i'll get close to the 22:1 air fuel ratio on part throttle that EFI cars regularly give.

With at least 50% from compression, about 22% from intake optimization, and then probably a 25% drop in power by up to 50% of anti detonation injection verses peak fuel flow. (ADI at that stratospheric ratio doesn't raise power as the engine is very close to detonation, just improves part throttle economy).

Based on 87 or 92 hp depending on what you believe for a stock 81 3.3.


A few really important notes:-


1. The 94.5 hp is the factory B code default rating, a figure without the fan clutch engaged, and it varied depending on trans, destination Fox Chassis, and either years from 1978 to 1983, it had a T code 85 hp, or X code 91 hp rating.
2. A car that wouldn't pass 31 mpg Highway ,
3. not top the 100 mph mark,
4. at best, do only a 19.0 sec 1320 foot time at the Standing 1/4.
5. The factory 4 speed stick-shift B code for 1981 was certainly never a 2 bbl Holley Weber or VV Motorcraft as the article claims....,it was always just a 1 bbl 1946C Holley Motorcraft carb,
6. a one year only 1352 case T5 but with a Four speed T4 Borg Warner IN THIS T-Top Mercury Capri with a 2.47 axle ratio.
7. It is not a 3.08 axle 0.81 overdrive 2.49:1 top SROD 4- speed as claimed in this Motor Trend March 1981 magazine repitch. The two Tremc T170's and T4 BW were avaliable at the ame time, and had the same effective overall gear ratios from 1 st to 4th.



19D.jpg


19B.jpg


19A.jpg


19C.jpg



Based on all that baseline info, what I expect is that I should end up with 140 hp, or about as much as a stock timed 3.3 with a Classic Inlines head on 8.5:1 compression and one 227 cfm at 1.5" Hg 32/36 carb.

At the moment, it's geared with 2.73's, and 2650 rpm at 70 mph. With my my F150 AOD and my special left hand starter Aussie LE95E bell-housing adapter, I'll get 1775 rpm at 70 mph, or 1400 rpm at 55 mph which will rank it up there with the auto 5.0GT and LX for moon shoot gearing. Unlike the better 5.0 Fox Mustangs, I won't have in excess of 260 lb-ft to live with a low stall ratio lock-up clutch gearbox.

I think I'll have to track down a set of 3.45:1 gears for my 6.7" diff. That will give me a 2.31:1 overall top gear, for 70mph rpms of 3325 in 3rd and 2225 rpm in top.


I'm attempting to do with six cylinders what Ford and Mercury did with eight.

My base line is to do a match up on Csaba Csere 1981 132 mph 4.2 liter 255 Mercury project car, an 81 model year 4.2 auto with 1982 5.0 2V GT performance.

Check this 7.5 3.45 Trac Loc/AODd/ 600 cfm 4-bbl 255 combo from Car and Driver;s October 1981.

http://www.ascmclarencoupe.com/Liter...Oct81_2_01.jpg
20A.jpg


http://www.ascmclarencoupe.com/Liter...Oct81_2_02.jpg
20B.jpg


http://www.ascmclarencoupe.com/Liter...Oct81_2_03.jpg
20C.jpg


http://www.ascmclarencoupe.com/Liter...Oct81_2_04.jpg
20D.jpg
 
xctasy":1o4oie6n said:
MustangSix":1o4oie6n said:
The tank is actually a bit over 15 US gallons, 12.4 Imperial. Smallish, but still far larger than the tank on my Mazdaspeed MX5.


No, not in my case. Note that the 1981 was supposed to have the 63 liter tank, or US 15 gal, but pre 1980 was 47 liter 12.5 US gal.

My 1981 car is really latey 1980 build, and has the US 12.5 gal tank for some reason. Maybee for clearance for the non standard dual exhast with behind tank cross over pipe.

In that case you'll need two jerry cans lashed to the rear - one for water and one for fuel!
 
MustangSix":2eo3mmx0 said:
In that case you'll need two jerry cans lashed to the rear - one for water and one for fuel!

Easy.
IMG_1563_zps9c792e7a.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uIGeY2xZos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... uIGeY2xZos
[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uIGeY2xZos[/bbvideo]


I adapted a 2.3 litre V6 Capri/Cortina radiator to the Mustang. It's peak cooling capacity is lower, so I can push the operating temperature up a little and experiment with the knock levels.

The old small log head has had about 6000 miles to flush out the rust...you'd be surprised what you find in one...

IMG_0507.jpg

IMG_0506.jpg

IMG_0505.jpg

IMG_0504.jpg

IMG_0503.jpg


I used my machinists laser cutter to run up an 80 thou thick plate to do the job.
 
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