200 30 degree Timing Question

[Eaglo]

Tried to set my initial timing on a '65 200 today.

With the Loadomatic disconnected and the line plugged, the timing light told me that initial timing was advanced 30 degrees.

Couldn't be.

I pulled out the #1 plug, set the piston to TDC and the timing mark was on "Zero".

Checked the vacuum advance plate and it wasn't hung up but back where the springs return it.

If I try to retard the timing, I run out of space to turn the distributor and besides, the engine stalls.

This is an electronic Snap On advance timing light, with the advance set to Zero for initial timing.

Do you think the timing light is messed up, or am I missing something?

The reason I'm doing all this is with the vacuum advance hooked up it pings like crazy when accelerating and hot. Yes, the carb is correct with the tight Power Valve and it gives me 1 to 7 degrees of vacuum advance like it should.

Any thoughts?

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

More than Likely the Balancer has slipped , My first car ( a 1962 Falcon ) that I had back in 1976 , had a balancer slipped , is quite common on the Falcon 6's , that was almost 35 years ago , they are old cars with old parts , do more checking but I believe you will find it has slipped

 

[Lazy JW]

......

I pulled out the #1 plug, set the piston to TDC and the timing mark was on "Zero".

This is pretty reliable; it's actually fairly easy position a piston within a degree of TDC just by "eyeballing" it, and if the pointer is on the Zero then it's plenty close enough. If it were 30 degrees off you could see that from across the room.

I would try a different timing light (never did trust those fancy-schmancy dial backs).
Joe

 

[Eaglo]

This mystery deepens. Thanks for your thoughts.

I tried another timing light. It's still 32 degrees advanced. What the heck? How is this thing running?

As I said, I'm not just trusting the timing mark; I checked it against TDC on the #1 cylinder, so I know the timing mark is right.

Maybe the timing chain jumped a tooth or was put in wrong? But the car runs great. Idles smooth, no popping, accelerates great.

Every time I've seen a jumped chain the engine ran like crap. And the timing mark's steady. It's not jumping around as it does sometimes with a stretched chain.

This is really stumping me. If I turn the distributor even eight degrees, it stalls...

What if I move each plug wire one hole around on the distributor? That would be about 30 degrees...

Help!

Ed in NY
'65 200 in a '67 Econoline Pickup

 

[Lazy JW]

If you have breaker points you can check it the old-fashioned way with an ohmmeter with the power shut off.

Disconnect battery.
Rotate to about 90º BTDC.
Hook up ohmmeter across points.
Slowly rotate by hand toward TDC.
When the points open you will see it on the ohmmeter.
Read the advance scale at the pointer.

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

I realize you took out a plug and looked , but without using a positive stop method you can easy be off 15-20 degrees , that puts you at tdc , add 15 more for good running and there you are 30 35 , I stand by what I said

 

[Lazy JW]

I realize you took out a plug and looked , but without using a positive stop method you can easy be off 15-20 degrees , that puts you at tdc , add 15 more for good running and there you are 30 35 , I stand by what I said

I respectfully disagree; it isn't difficult at all to eyeball a piston within a degree or two of TDC. Try it, you may be surprised; 15º is a LONG way.
Joe

 

[Eaglo]

Thanks for the help gentlemen. I solved the problem.

The timing was indeed advanced 30 degrees.

Tried moving the plug wires down one position to no avail.

Back to basics, I changed the points and condenser. Whatever was wrong with the old dwell, after changing them, the timing mark came closer -- it was only advanced about 18 degrees.

Then twisting the distributor brought it where it should be.

Plugged the advance line, adjusted the idle speed, mixture with a vacuum gauge.

Now it's running great. Set the basic timing to the Ford spec of 4 degrees, and the Loadomatic adds about 15 degrees onto that at 2500 RPM.

Could probably advance it a little more, but I wanted to start here.

Also gone is a chugging that sounding a whole lot like a main bearing knock when the engine was hot at 2500 RPM. That's a good feeling.

It's nice to get lucky sometimes.

Thanks again

Ed in NY
'65 200 in a '67 Econoline Pickup

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

Glad you fixed it 18 degrees ???? not a degree or two ? as proposed ( by someone else ) , Sometimes I don't know why I try on this forum, There is a sticky on adjusting timing by ear ?, now we can set timing ( or check it ) by eye , why the heck use equipment like timing lights or degree wheels etc,when our senses are so keen , I'll tell you why , My cars and customer's run better than tractors,There ARE some on here that have their act together, I realize that some want to help , and that's great but by giving Grease Monkey Info, You Don't help , I should try it sometime ???????? I have been doing it, and doing it right for 35 years , Just because my name doesn't say Moderator after it, don't assume, and one last thing , the piston has dwell time at tdc , and if you do math , a Falcon 6 balancer only needs to move less than an inch to get 15 degrees add that to the fact of the dwell time at tdc and its easy to be off 15 or more

 

[Eaglo]

Yes, I believe the pulley was correct all along, and the static timing had been set to 30 degrees advance by someone who didn't realize or care that the vacuum advance diaphragm was blown.

But the dwell was so far off and the capacitor was out of a junk box. What this did was cause the spark to break up when I attempted to retard the timing to the correct point.

With the points set properly, the timing could be brought back where it belonged, which Ford calls for 4 degrees BTDC. The Loadomatic adds another 14 degrees or so at 2500 RPM

There's no substitute for good tools. I think what people fail to realize is that the less you know the more you need quality instruments. An experienced guy can wing this or that and call on his experience, but a guy who doesn't do this every day needs all the help he can get!

 

[Lazy JW]

....... and one last thing , the piston has dwell time at tdc.........

If you do math, you would know that this is not true; here's a link to a LONG thread over at SpeedTalk that discusses this in great detail (you need to be a member and logged in to view)
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 5&start=60

....... and if you do math , a Falcon 6 balancer only needs to move less than an inch to get 15 degrees add that to the fact of the dwell time at tdc and its easy to be off 15 or more

An inch is pretty easy to see, actually, a sixteenth of an inch is readily discernible to the naked eye (just get out a tape measure and take a gander).

Dude, mellow out. I wasn't giving advice on building a space shuttle; the original poster had a discrepancy of almost 30º, by your math that's about two INCHES on the balancer; I was merely pointing out that a balancer which has slipped 30º is pretty easy to spot with the eyeball method.

I challenge anyone who is interested in learning to go pull the spark plug on an engine in which the piston can be seen and just for kicks wiggle the crank back and forth with the piston at TDC and see how close you can eyeball it. Anyone who doesn't care to learn is free to ignore.
Joe

 

[MustangSix]

TDC is tough to eyeball. You could be off a lot.

The only good way I know to do it is with a piston stop. Rotate it forward to the stop, mark the balancer from a known point, then rotate it backwards until it stops again. Then split the difference between the two marks.

 

[Lazy JW]

TDC is tough to eyeball. You could be off a lot.

The only good way I know to do it is with a piston stop. Rotate it forward to the stop, mark the balancer from a known point, then rotate it backwards until it stops again. Then split the difference between the two marks.

Agreed.
Once again, I am NOT suggesting this as an accurate means of degreeing a cam, but I am confident that I could spot a balancer that has slipped 30º. And if I were out in the toolies with a sheared distributor pin and a slipped balancer I could also get the thing to run without having to walk home.

I take it no one has accepted my challenge
Joe

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

I never said , nor did the original post say it was off 30 he said it ran good at 30 , I was saying it could of been off by 15 , which is about .785 of an inch and that is easy at tdc , it slipped by 15 , he needed to add 15 to make it run , not that it had slipped by 30 , Although , my first car a 62 with a 144 was off over 50 degrees ,

 

[Lazy JW]

I've earned a comfortable living the past thirty years working in sawmill maintenance as a saw filer; I use dial indicators, micrometers, and straight edges daily in the process of keeping modern, high-speed sawing equipment running profitably. These are fully computer- optimized machines using the latest lazer scanning technology; prior to this I was an avionics technician in the Marine Corps.

I understand the need for precision, and am fully qualified to accomplish this.

One thing I have learned is that whenever something doesn't LOOK right, it probably isn't, and one had best be investigating further. I have had the pleasure of training many young saw filers during my career, and one thing I have always stressed is to know what it is SUPPOSED to look like, somewhat like bank tellers being trained to spot counterfeit money by practicing handling GOOD money.

If you KNOW what "right" looks like, then "wrong" is easy to spot.

The human eye is a marvelous thing; we use a hammer, an anvil, and a straightedge to flatten saws so that they run within a few thou total runout at the rim. With a straightedge one can readily discern a half-thou at arm's length; this is no great feat, all of my colleagues can do it as can anyone with reasonable eyesight and proper training.

Spotting a few thou movement of a piston near TDC really isn't that tough, and certainly isn't hard to tell if it is moving up or down. Next time you have the head off of a shortblock, stick a dial indicator on the piston and wiggle it back and forth at TDC, then look at the timing marks. A small amount of practice with an indicator can really build confidence.

I recently helped a guy install the timing belt on an old junker Isuzu four-banger; we had good marks on the cam but there was not a mark to be found on the crank. The book called for TDC so we eyeballed it; just to be certain we moved it each way enough to jump one tooth, it was obvious that the piston moved downward significantly when moved by only one tooth in either direction. Back to TDC (eyeballed) and it runs fine. His comment to me: "I didn't think that was possible".

This was written for the benefit of those who wish to learn. To those who are done learning...... sorry about your demise.
Joe