All Small Six 200 six and a T5 tranny

[Blurooster]

I just purchased a 1964 Ford Ranchero. It has a 170 engine in it with a 3 speed on the column. I also got a 200six that has been rebuilt ,polished and ported with a cam upgrade ,a set of headers. Also a T5 tranny that came out of a 1989S truck .The shaft has 14 grove spline. This is my First time around with a car-truck rebuild ,I have restored a few motorcycles in the past.I would like to Change from the 3 speed to a 4 or 5 speed if the cost is not to great. I would appreciate any and all advice on this . Thanks Blurooster One more thing, I was trying to become a member but I cannot get to the payment choice. Any advice?

 

[rocklord]

A T5 is from a S10 has a different bolt pattern on the bellhousing mating surface, and different input/output spline counts than a T5 for a Ford. The rear tailshaft housing from a S10 T5 can be swapped onto a Ford T5 to place the shifter in the correct position for a Falcon.

Rickwrench on this forum installed a S10 T5 into his Falcon stationwagon. Here is how he did it:

Rickwrench, Alfa GTV, Falcon Squire, Corvair

Hope this helps.

 

[bmbm40]

The 200/T5 will be a very enjoyable performance upgrade for you Ranchero providing more power and all around drivability. Some good info to have on hand is the block and head casting numbers as well as the axle ratio.
Not sure on the member payment issue but someone will chime in.
Keep us up to date.

 

[Frank]

Blurooster- welcome! To contribute: click on your name in the blue strip at the top, right hand side. choose "Account Upgrades".

 

[Blurooster]

Thanks to all who replied.I was able to join Yeah. The block code is C8DE-6015B ,The head code is 6D25 C6DE-6090B So that makes it a 1968 engine . What would be the easiest way to put a four or five speed in ?As I don't think the bell housing from the 170 will fit the 200. Should I look for a Ford transmission and bell ? Or keep the 3 on the column ? I am looking for the easiest way to do it.Thanks again, I know this group has a ton of experience.

 

[vssman]

A C8 block is dual drilled for both small and large bellhousings. Your 170CID bell will fit along with the dished flywheel. Arguably, it would be better to find a large 200 bellhousing, flywheel, and plate as that would allow for a more modern 9” finger style clutch vs the 8 1/2 3 finger in the small bell. Easiest but more expensive is to call modern driveline. They’ll have everything you need. If you search a bit for more part numbers you can source them from less expensive suppliers. Most of my stuff came from Summit and Rockauto on my T5 conversion.

 

[bmbm40]

There were some parts available here including bellhousings, don't know what is left:

M

For Sale Thread '**'

Jul 4, 2024

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• MaverickAddict
• Replies: 9
• Forum: Buy, Sell, or Trade - Small Six

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[powerband]

"would like to Change from the 3 speed to a 4 or 5 speed if the cost is not to great. I would appreciate any and all advice ... What would be the easiest way to put a four or five speed in ? "
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the S-10 tranny tail housing or whole tranny has successfully been used as mentioned . Out yoke, Speedo question, rear mount and shifter location are to be considered.
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here's .02 cents more:
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With serious regard to simplicity, the more available and better geared for six' V8 T5 is an option. All small six blocks after @ '67 used the 'Toploader' 3/4 speed Bellhouse/FW/Clutch etc. . The 'Toploader' / six bellhouse on Falcon/Mustang/Maverick/Comet/Fairlane/Ranchero etc thru late 70's
uses simple inexpensive adapter plate to install (Foxbody) V8 T5. Early car pedal clutch linkage still works and available "C4 Tranny mount' works with minimal mods', DS yoke available T5 to early small universal.
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. . .
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etc:

'61 Comet 250 / Z-V8 T5 Overdrive 5 spd / 3.80:1 rear gears.
'63 Falcon Wagon w/ '71 Maverick 170 / NWC V8 T5 Overdrive 5spd / OEM 3.50 rear gears. / Bench Seat
'74 Maverick 250 / Z-V8 T5 Overdrive 5 spd / 2.79:1 rear gears / Vortech Supercharger. / Bench Seat
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Ford/Aftermarket T5 comparisons

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... from an advocate for the Overdrive use with 'modern' driving speeds in cars designed for pre-interstate travel.
.BTW - the 4 cyl. T5 has gearing for 4cyl's higher neede RPM power output and less deep overdrive, and the V8 T5 is more suitable to the small block six's low RPM torque (powerband) .
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have fun
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then and now :
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[rickwrench]

If your 200 is a 1966+ dual pattern block (not a big bell) you will be miles ahead using a Modern Driveline T5 kit.

To use the GM pattern S10 T5 with the small bell 170, you'll need:
an Econoline bell (C1UU 6394)
a muncie to toploader adapter plate
a GM 1x14 8-1/2" clutch plate
a pilot bushing that has the GM input shaft nose ID and I6 crank hole OD
S10 slip yoke
•••
Fabricate or modify trans mount crossmember
Shorten drive shaft
Figure out how you want to disengage the clutch/TO bearing
Match rear end drive angle to drivetrain angle (1/2˚ down)

For the pilot bushing... I had to very slightly cut down a GM bushing's OD to get it to fit. I have no recollection (at all) of what the original bushing's application was. I do remember combing through catalogues to find a GM bushing that was close enough to cut down the OD without much trouble.

The Econoline bells show up on eBay from time to time, and I'd bet a few members here have one squirreled away.
The Muncie/Toploader adapter plate -used- to be a common speedshop piece, but is getting harder to find, and expensive.

Consider using an Alfa/Mercedes 215mm diaphragm style pressure plate and skimmed flywheel step.

S10 NWC T5 is excellent for this application. S10 gearing works very well with the I6. Most had a 3.76 1st and 0.76 OD. I have a 3.00 rear in my Squire, so highway cruise (65mph) is around 2000 rpm.

I've got 180,000+ miles on mine at this point.

 

[awasson]

I’m curious; is there an advantage with the GM T5 rather than a Fox body T5? I’ve been planning my swap for a little while and thought that the Fox body T5 was the simplest swap to 5-speed success. I’ll likely stay the course because I’ve got all of the parts to make it happen now but I’m still interested in knowing other people’s thoughts and opinions on 5-speed recipes.

I don’t think my approach will be anything ground breaking since it’s a pretty well established recipe:

1) 1993 Mustang T5 from a 4 cylinder car. I chose this transmission because it is supposed to be a good fit for the torque curve and powerband of the 200 and the length of the 4 cylinder Fox body T5 allows for the stock driveshaft to fit by just changing the slip yoke. A V8 Fox body T5 can also be used without changing the drive shaft if you swap the tail housing with the one from a 4 cylinder as well.

I lucked out. I got the transmission from a guy who swapped a 302 and transmission into his 93 fox body mustang. I paid $75 and gladly drove the 100 miles to get it.

2) 9” Clutch kit with diaphragm type pressure plate. I’ve got one from Rock Auto for a 78 Fairmont. https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog...6,1127562,transmission-manual,clutch+kit,1993

I also picked up a pilot bearing from a 1983 4 cylinder Diesel Ranger, which fits the T5 input shaft. https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog...transmission-manual,clutch+pilot+bearing,1964

3) T5 upgrade kit from California Pony Cars. Comes with the adapter plate, Transmission crossmember, trans mount and slip yoke that fits the output spline on the T5 (the link is for the 66 kit but they do a 67-70 kit too). https://calponycars.com/collections...ts/1966-6-cylinder-t-5-5-speed-conversion-kit

4) I will need to change the speedo drive gear but I’m not certain what one I’ll need to use.

I think that covers what is probably the simplest swap to a 5-speed in a 1st generation mustang.

 

[rickwrench]

I’m curious; is there an advantage with the GM T5 rather than a Fox body T5?

One design is no better or worse than the other.
Parts is parts, and there were literally hundreds of T5 applications.
Just happens that the S10 T5 input shaft is the correct length to match the Econoline bell and handy hotrod adapter plate depth.
The T5s had a lot of available gear ratios and OD sets. Most of the parts interchanged easily. It was pretty easy to build a FrankenT5 to suit your exact desires.
Even between NWC and WC, there is very (very) little functional difference. None that I could tell when shifting, anyway.
Maybe the WC's fiber lined synchros make bang shifting a bit less crunchy?

 

[powerband]

The "World Class" controversy' - NWC vs WC T5 doesn't add up to much. WC' T5's (foxbody) use ATF and roller bearings where Non-World Class use regular old gear oil and different (bronze ...) bushings and suitable bearings, syncro materials. Early Mustang V8 GT (Cobra?) had NWC T5 (32-126) , NWC GT T5 is in my '63 Falcon Wagon after inexpensive rebuild. NWC T5 is a little stiff when cold but shifts as good or better when warm.
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Most available/usable are 80's-93 Mustang 4 and 8 cyl T5's (WC) and rebuilding is not cheap vs 'aftermarket' tranny unless you rebuild and internals are mostly intact. After '93 T5/BH change made 6Cyl swaps more complicated.
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"Cobra / Z" T5 trannys use improved Input/Output shaft 'pocket bearing' for increased torque handling. Aftermarket Z T5 in the '61 Comet , I rebuilt' factory Z (32-218) with the more expensive gears and parts ...
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GM used/uses NWC more regularly in cars and vans ( Camaro, Astro etc).
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Ubiquitous T5 4WD version was in my '95 Isuzu Trooper ...
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Factory HP Cobra T5 and typical V8 T5 (52-218 and 52-169
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alum' TO carrier was common issue
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have Overdriven fun
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[Jmustang_65]

4) I will need to change the speedo drive gear but I’m not certain what one I’ll need to use.

Most common one's are going to be yellow 17 tooth (Come standard) and black 20 tooth. It's best to use a calculator like this one.
https://lmr.com/products/Mustang-Speedometer-Gear-Calculator

I think that covers what is probably the simplest swap to a 5-speed in a 1st generation mustang.

You will just need to decide what linkage type; z bar, cable or Hydraulic.

 

[Frank]

awasson- To know what speedo drive gear to use, you'll have to know the rear ratio/tire size of the donner car. Then divide by your rear ratio/tire. Multiply the dividend by the teeth on the donner trans to calculate needed gear.
Example : (Assume same tire size)
Donner car had a 3.15 gear, you have a 3.50 gear. 3.15 over 3.50= 1.11 (11%) If the trans came with a 19 tooth gear, 19x1.11= 21.1 . You need a 21 tooth gear.

 

[awasson]

Thanks for the advice on sprockets @Jmustang_65 and @Frank.

I found the following on another forum regarding rear end ratios.

Here are all the Ford rear end ratios offered for a 65-67 mustang along with the codes;
Code 1 = 3.00, 2 = 2.83, 3 = 3.20, 4 = 3.25, 5 = 3.50, 6 = 2.80, 7 = 3.80, 8 = 3.89, 9 = 4.11. All of these are conventional axles.

WIth this in mind I believe mine has a 3.00 so I've used the calculator and it looks like I'll need a 19 tooth but I'll double check before I do my swap (when it's above freezing around here). I'm using the Z-Bar for now and will switch to a cable in due time.