Part I & II - Part III coming soon
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part I
Engine: 250ci - Bone Stock - Headers - DUI ignition.
Upgrades: 2V Adpator (various carbs)
Carb - CFM - Max HP (Gain/Avg) - Max TQ (Gain/Avg) - C/O
Stock YF 1V- 180 - 75 @ 3950 (0/62) - 110 @ 2500 (0/100) 7.5% (rich)
Autolite 2V - 240 - 79 @ 3750 (4/67hp) - 118 @ 2550 (8/107lbs) 6.5%
Weber 2V- 300 - 80 @ 4100 (5/65hp) - 116 @ 2650 (6/105lbs) 6%
Holley 2V- 350 - 80 @ 3950 (5/68hp) - 120 @ 2600 (10/109lbs) 6.5%
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part II
Engine: 200ci - 264-110 Cam - Headers - Log Head
Upgrades: DUI dizzy - 2V Adaptor (various carbs)
Carb - CFM - Dizzy - Max HP (Gain/Avg) - Max TQ (Gain/Avg) - C/O
Autolite 1V - 180 - LOM - 62 @ 3900 (0/49) - 93 @ 2900 (0/81)
Weber 2V - 300 - LOM - 70 @ 4300 (8/51 hp) - 94 @ 3350 (1/83 lbs) 4% (lean)
Weber 2V - 300 - DUI - 85 @ 3900 (23/66 hp) - 105 @ 3300 (12/97 lbs) 4% (lean)
Autolite 2V - 240 - DUI - 83 @ 3950 (21/67 hp) - 105 @ 3400 (12/98 lbs) ?
Autolite 2V - 245 - DUI - 84 @ 3900 (22/68 hp) - 105 @ 3300 (12/99 lbs) ?
Holley 2V - 350 - DUI - 87 @ 3800 (25/69 hp)- 106 @ 3200 (13/100 lbs) 6%
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part III
Engine: 250ci - Bone Stock - Headers - DUI ignition
Upgrades: Modified Log Head w/ 2V & Larger Exh Valves (various carbs)
Coming soon - approx 9-30-08
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Details Follow:
PART I
We meet at Chucks Speed and RV Shop around 9am this morning, and finished up testing around noon, before having lunch courtesy of 82F100. Thanks Rich.
For part one of our testing, we started with Gene's Maverick, which has a bone stock 250ci block and head. The rings are pretty worn, as it was burning quite a bit of oil at first, however it did settle down after a couple of runs on the dyno. The only modifications are dual out headers and a DUI ignition system. Compression ratio is probably around 8.1 considering the condition of the rings, but this seemed like a great place to start.
We did a couple baseline runs using the Carter YF-1V, and then moved on to a Progressive Weber via a 2V-1V adaptor. Next we pulled the Weber and installed a Holley 350 and did a couple more runs. The final run was done with an old 1.01 Autolite carb that I purchased this past summer at Carlisle. We didn't even know if it would run in its current condition, but thought we might as well try it since we were there. To my surprise it started right up, and ran pretty good, all things considered. My guess is that it came off an old junker after sitting several years in some bone yard back east. While the outside was pretty clean, obviously from a bath in carb cleaner, who knows what it looked like inside?
The results of our dyno runs were just about what I thought they would be. I'll post the dyno graphs, pics, and some comments on the CI website, and will post a link to the page later tonight. However, here are some basic results.
UPDATE: Here's the link. The page isn't done yet, but at least you can check out the graphs. http://classicinlines.com/DynoDay1.asp
NOTE: All 2V carbs were tested on the log intake using a 2V to 1V adaptor. The results were surprisingly, quite similar.
Stock YF: 76HP - 111lbs
Weber: 80HP - 116lbs
Holley 350: 80HP - 120lbs
Autolite 1.01: 79HP - 118lbs
Total gains were about the same, regardless of which carb was used. Net gains over the YF-1V were approximately 4HP and 9lbs of torque at the rears wheels, or 5% HP, and 7-8% torque.
Next week we'll be testing a freshly rebuilt 200ci with a 264-110 cam and headers. Right now it’s running the stock 1100-1V carb, the old points style dizzy, and non-adjustable rockers. We'll be testing the Weber, Holley, and Autolite carbs, all via an adaptor. Plus the DSII and DUI ignition systems, and a set of high ratio adjustable rockers, which are all bolt on modifications.
Then a few weeks later, we'll be testing Gene’s car again. Only this time with the modified (direct mount) log head. We plan to test the same Holley and Autolite carbs, along with a couple of rebuilt Autolite carbs of various sizes. In the end we should have some good real world comparisons with dyno numbers. I’m really curious to see how the modified head does? I’m guessing we will see quite an improvement over the adaptors, but how much remains to be seen.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PART II
Well, we did PART 2 today. The cost of the dyno time adds up fast, so I hope the info is helpful, and appreciated.
We weren't able to test the DSII today as planned, as we couldn't find one. We checked with three different chains, and all three told us they no longer stock them, as they are now a special order item. That was disappointing, as I was really hoping to test the DSII vs. the DUI. Guess we'll just have to do it another day. As a result, I'm going to see if I can get the DSII and keep them in stock.
We wanted to test the high ratio rockers too, but that also had to be put off for another day, as I am currently out of ball and cup pushrods for the 200ci. I've had them on order for several weeks, but getting parts from this supplier is difficult, to say the least. I keep making phone calls, and had my fingers crossed, but no luck. Hopefully I'll get them next week.
We did test the DUI however. Again, this was on a 200ci with a fresh rebuild, a 264-112 cam, and headers. Keep in mind; the baseline Weber had no provisions for vacuum advance. Using the Weber baseline with the stock dizzy, we gained 15HP & 13 lbs of torque after installing the DUI. The Weber/DUI combo, over the 1100 and stock dizzy, gained 23HP and 10 lbs of torque, while the Holley/DUI combo netted 25HP and 12 lbs of torque. That's a 29% increase in HP.
One problem I noticed, is that the motor doesn't make much power down low, but takes off once it gets past 2500rpm. My guess is that the cam is retarded, maybe as much as 6-8 degrees, as it wasn't degreed when it was installed. Even if the cam is ground spot on, Clay Smith recommends installing them 4 degrees advanced (their cams are ground straight up), therefore it's at least 4 degrees retarded. I'm guessing even more based on how the motor was performing, as it should make a lot more bottom end power.
However he is going to replace the damper soon, as it has slipped considerably. At that time, he plans to degree the cam. Once that's done, I'd like to take it back for another go around. If I'm right, it will make a huge difference.
EDIT: I had to take a break for dinner. LOL
As for the carb test, we did the baseline last week with the stock 1100 carb. This morning, the Weber was already installed when we got there, so we were able to get right to it. We did our first run with the Weber, then pulled the stock dizzy and installed the DUI. After a run with the Weber and the DUI, we installed the Autolite 240cfm and did two more pulls. Next we installed the Holley 350cfm and did another run. Our finally pass was with an Autolite 245cfm, which I decided to bring along.
Remember, both Autolites were used carbs purchased at a swap meet earlier this summer, so we had no idea of their condition, or if they would even run. To our surprise both worked fine, however it was obvious that the 245cfm needed a rebuild. It also needed to be re-jetted as it was quite lean, however we didn't take time to re-jet as it was lunchtime and the guys were ready. Therefore we decided to call it a day. We got the info we were after using the first three carbs, so the last run didn't really matter.
SUMMARY: The progressive Weber made the least power, while the Holley 350 made the most. The Autolite 240 [1.01] & 245 [1.02] were in between, with the 245 making more, even in its poor condition. However, all the runs were within 2 HP and 3 lbs of torque. If I can afford it, I'd like to try an Autolite 287 [1.08] and a 300 [1.14], to see how they'd compare to the Holley 350. Maybe even a 351 [1.21] or 356 [1.23], but I'm guessing they might be to big? NOTE: the venturi size is in [parenthesis].
Carb - CFM - Dizzy - Max HP - Max TQ - HP/CFM - Gain
Autolite 1V - 180 - LOM - 62 @ 3900 - 93 @ 2900 - 0.34 - Baseline
Weber 2V - 300 - LOM - 70 @ 4300 - 94 @ 3350 - 0.23 - Baseline
Weber 2V - 300 - DUI - 85 @ 4900 - 105 @ 3300- 0.28 - 27 %
Autolite 2V - 240 - DUI - 83 @ 4950 - 105 @ 3400 - 0.35 - 25 %
Autolite 2V - 245 - DUI - 84 @ 4900 - 105 @ 3300 - 0.34 - 26 %
Holley 2V - 350 - DUI - 87 @ 4800 - 106 @ 3200 - 0.25 - 29 %
As for the drivability with the DUI, here are his comments after the drive home.
Quote:
The DUI makes a very noticeable difference in the drivability of the car.
First, you can really notice the difference coming off idle. As you are leaving a stoplight, or whatever, it is much more responsive down low.
Next, is during highway cruise. Before when accelerating around a car, going up a hill, or over a long overpass, the car seemed to labor as you added a little gas. Now when you add a little throttle it just picks up and goes.
Lastly is when in passing gear. Before when you hit passing gear at 55, or so, it made a lot more noise and a little more speed. Now it makes the same amount of noise, but has a nice acceleration.
NEXT UP: Testing the modified log head, hopefully next week.
The log head had 180/150 oversized valves installed, plus a little port work in the intake runners and a basic cleanup in the bowls. While the test won't be apples to apples, it will still give us a good comparison. I figure most guys who pull a head and modify it, are probably going to install bigger valves. Why go to the trouble of modifying the intake, if your not going to make to most of it?
Again, the idea is to test what most are doing to their motors, rather than strictly apples to apples. Why go thru all the extra labor and expense to pull the head twice, plus the extra dyno time to retest. I'm betting more guys will install oversized valves, rather than just modifying the intake and leaving it at that. Sure it would be nice to know; unfortunately I have a budget and need to make the most of it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part III
Coming soon
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part I
Engine: 250ci - Bone Stock - Headers - DUI ignition.
Upgrades: 2V Adpator (various carbs)
Carb - CFM - Max HP (Gain/Avg) - Max TQ (Gain/Avg) - C/O
Stock YF 1V- 180 - 75 @ 3950 (0/62) - 110 @ 2500 (0/100) 7.5% (rich)
Autolite 2V - 240 - 79 @ 3750 (4/67hp) - 118 @ 2550 (8/107lbs) 6.5%
Weber 2V- 300 - 80 @ 4100 (5/65hp) - 116 @ 2650 (6/105lbs) 6%
Holley 2V- 350 - 80 @ 3950 (5/68hp) - 120 @ 2600 (10/109lbs) 6.5%
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part II
Engine: 200ci - 264-110 Cam - Headers - Log Head
Upgrades: DUI dizzy - 2V Adaptor (various carbs)
Carb - CFM - Dizzy - Max HP (Gain/Avg) - Max TQ (Gain/Avg) - C/O
Autolite 1V - 180 - LOM - 62 @ 3900 (0/49) - 93 @ 2900 (0/81)
Weber 2V - 300 - LOM - 70 @ 4300 (8/51 hp) - 94 @ 3350 (1/83 lbs) 4% (lean)
Weber 2V - 300 - DUI - 85 @ 3900 (23/66 hp) - 105 @ 3300 (12/97 lbs) 4% (lean)
Autolite 2V - 240 - DUI - 83 @ 3950 (21/67 hp) - 105 @ 3400 (12/98 lbs) ?
Autolite 2V - 245 - DUI - 84 @ 3900 (22/68 hp) - 105 @ 3300 (12/99 lbs) ?
Holley 2V - 350 - DUI - 87 @ 3800 (25/69 hp)- 106 @ 3200 (13/100 lbs) 6%
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part III
Engine: 250ci - Bone Stock - Headers - DUI ignition
Upgrades: Modified Log Head w/ 2V & Larger Exh Valves (various carbs)
Coming soon - approx 9-30-08
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Details Follow:
PART I
We meet at Chucks Speed and RV Shop around 9am this morning, and finished up testing around noon, before having lunch courtesy of 82F100. Thanks Rich.
For part one of our testing, we started with Gene's Maverick, which has a bone stock 250ci block and head. The rings are pretty worn, as it was burning quite a bit of oil at first, however it did settle down after a couple of runs on the dyno. The only modifications are dual out headers and a DUI ignition system. Compression ratio is probably around 8.1 considering the condition of the rings, but this seemed like a great place to start.
We did a couple baseline runs using the Carter YF-1V, and then moved on to a Progressive Weber via a 2V-1V adaptor. Next we pulled the Weber and installed a Holley 350 and did a couple more runs. The final run was done with an old 1.01 Autolite carb that I purchased this past summer at Carlisle. We didn't even know if it would run in its current condition, but thought we might as well try it since we were there. To my surprise it started right up, and ran pretty good, all things considered. My guess is that it came off an old junker after sitting several years in some bone yard back east. While the outside was pretty clean, obviously from a bath in carb cleaner, who knows what it looked like inside?
The results of our dyno runs were just about what I thought they would be. I'll post the dyno graphs, pics, and some comments on the CI website, and will post a link to the page later tonight. However, here are some basic results.
UPDATE: Here's the link. The page isn't done yet, but at least you can check out the graphs. http://classicinlines.com/DynoDay1.asp
NOTE: All 2V carbs were tested on the log intake using a 2V to 1V adaptor. The results were surprisingly, quite similar.
Stock YF: 76HP - 111lbs
Weber: 80HP - 116lbs
Holley 350: 80HP - 120lbs
Autolite 1.01: 79HP - 118lbs
Total gains were about the same, regardless of which carb was used. Net gains over the YF-1V were approximately 4HP and 9lbs of torque at the rears wheels, or 5% HP, and 7-8% torque.
Next week we'll be testing a freshly rebuilt 200ci with a 264-110 cam and headers. Right now it’s running the stock 1100-1V carb, the old points style dizzy, and non-adjustable rockers. We'll be testing the Weber, Holley, and Autolite carbs, all via an adaptor. Plus the DSII and DUI ignition systems, and a set of high ratio adjustable rockers, which are all bolt on modifications.
Then a few weeks later, we'll be testing Gene’s car again. Only this time with the modified (direct mount) log head. We plan to test the same Holley and Autolite carbs, along with a couple of rebuilt Autolite carbs of various sizes. In the end we should have some good real world comparisons with dyno numbers. I’m really curious to see how the modified head does? I’m guessing we will see quite an improvement over the adaptors, but how much remains to be seen.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PART II
Well, we did PART 2 today. The cost of the dyno time adds up fast, so I hope the info is helpful, and appreciated.
We weren't able to test the DSII today as planned, as we couldn't find one. We checked with three different chains, and all three told us they no longer stock them, as they are now a special order item. That was disappointing, as I was really hoping to test the DSII vs. the DUI. Guess we'll just have to do it another day. As a result, I'm going to see if I can get the DSII and keep them in stock.
We wanted to test the high ratio rockers too, but that also had to be put off for another day, as I am currently out of ball and cup pushrods for the 200ci. I've had them on order for several weeks, but getting parts from this supplier is difficult, to say the least. I keep making phone calls, and had my fingers crossed, but no luck. Hopefully I'll get them next week.
We did test the DUI however. Again, this was on a 200ci with a fresh rebuild, a 264-112 cam, and headers. Keep in mind; the baseline Weber had no provisions for vacuum advance. Using the Weber baseline with the stock dizzy, we gained 15HP & 13 lbs of torque after installing the DUI. The Weber/DUI combo, over the 1100 and stock dizzy, gained 23HP and 10 lbs of torque, while the Holley/DUI combo netted 25HP and 12 lbs of torque. That's a 29% increase in HP.
One problem I noticed, is that the motor doesn't make much power down low, but takes off once it gets past 2500rpm. My guess is that the cam is retarded, maybe as much as 6-8 degrees, as it wasn't degreed when it was installed. Even if the cam is ground spot on, Clay Smith recommends installing them 4 degrees advanced (their cams are ground straight up), therefore it's at least 4 degrees retarded. I'm guessing even more based on how the motor was performing, as it should make a lot more bottom end power.
However he is going to replace the damper soon, as it has slipped considerably. At that time, he plans to degree the cam. Once that's done, I'd like to take it back for another go around. If I'm right, it will make a huge difference.
EDIT: I had to take a break for dinner. LOL
As for the carb test, we did the baseline last week with the stock 1100 carb. This morning, the Weber was already installed when we got there, so we were able to get right to it. We did our first run with the Weber, then pulled the stock dizzy and installed the DUI. After a run with the Weber and the DUI, we installed the Autolite 240cfm and did two more pulls. Next we installed the Holley 350cfm and did another run. Our finally pass was with an Autolite 245cfm, which I decided to bring along.
Remember, both Autolites were used carbs purchased at a swap meet earlier this summer, so we had no idea of their condition, or if they would even run. To our surprise both worked fine, however it was obvious that the 245cfm needed a rebuild. It also needed to be re-jetted as it was quite lean, however we didn't take time to re-jet as it was lunchtime and the guys were ready. Therefore we decided to call it a day. We got the info we were after using the first three carbs, so the last run didn't really matter.
SUMMARY: The progressive Weber made the least power, while the Holley 350 made the most. The Autolite 240 [1.01] & 245 [1.02] were in between, with the 245 making more, even in its poor condition. However, all the runs were within 2 HP and 3 lbs of torque. If I can afford it, I'd like to try an Autolite 287 [1.08] and a 300 [1.14], to see how they'd compare to the Holley 350. Maybe even a 351 [1.21] or 356 [1.23], but I'm guessing they might be to big? NOTE: the venturi size is in [parenthesis].
Carb - CFM - Dizzy - Max HP - Max TQ - HP/CFM - Gain
Autolite 1V - 180 - LOM - 62 @ 3900 - 93 @ 2900 - 0.34 - Baseline
Weber 2V - 300 - LOM - 70 @ 4300 - 94 @ 3350 - 0.23 - Baseline
Weber 2V - 300 - DUI - 85 @ 4900 - 105 @ 3300- 0.28 - 27 %
Autolite 2V - 240 - DUI - 83 @ 4950 - 105 @ 3400 - 0.35 - 25 %
Autolite 2V - 245 - DUI - 84 @ 4900 - 105 @ 3300 - 0.34 - 26 %
Holley 2V - 350 - DUI - 87 @ 4800 - 106 @ 3200 - 0.25 - 29 %
As for the drivability with the DUI, here are his comments after the drive home.
Quote:
The DUI makes a very noticeable difference in the drivability of the car.
First, you can really notice the difference coming off idle. As you are leaving a stoplight, or whatever, it is much more responsive down low.
Next, is during highway cruise. Before when accelerating around a car, going up a hill, or over a long overpass, the car seemed to labor as you added a little gas. Now when you add a little throttle it just picks up and goes.
Lastly is when in passing gear. Before when you hit passing gear at 55, or so, it made a lot more noise and a little more speed. Now it makes the same amount of noise, but has a nice acceleration.
NEXT UP: Testing the modified log head, hopefully next week.
The log head had 180/150 oversized valves installed, plus a little port work in the intake runners and a basic cleanup in the bowls. While the test won't be apples to apples, it will still give us a good comparison. I figure most guys who pull a head and modify it, are probably going to install bigger valves. Why go to the trouble of modifying the intake, if your not going to make to most of it?
Again, the idea is to test what most are doing to their motors, rather than strictly apples to apples. Why go thru all the extra labor and expense to pull the head twice, plus the extra dyno time to retest. I'm betting more guys will install oversized valves, rather than just modifying the intake and leaving it at that. Sure it would be nice to know; unfortunately I have a budget and need to make the most of it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part III
Coming soon