65 200 ci running hot - Help!!!

[Anonymous]

Here's what I thought I bought in February 05:

- Original 1965 Mustang Convertible, 6 cyl 200ci automatic.
- Seller says the engine has been rebuilt to handle modern gas.

Here's what I NOW know:

- It originally was a standard trans.
- The engine Block number (C5DE 6015-H) is for a 65 Falcon.
- The Head number (C6DE-6090-B) is for a 66 Falcon.
- The exaust manifold number (C3DE-9430-A) is for a 63 Falcon.
- The engine does look to have been rebuilt. At least the head and valve cover gaskets appear to be new.

Here's my symtoms:

- Temp Gauge seems to show engine running hot, the higher the outside temp is, the higher the gauge goes. For instance, when I drive it when the temp is in the 50-60's the gauge will max at about half. But, when the temp is 70-80s, then the gauge will range from half to 3/4 and sometimes higher.
- After its HOT, and I try to start the car again - The starter turns over once, pauses for about a second, then the engine will turn over and start.
- No heat, even though both heater hoses get hot eventually.

Here's what Ive tried:

- Replace the thermostat - no change in symtoms.
- Get the engine hot (gauge about half), took the radiator cap off while engine running and put in a thermometer to test water temp. It showed 180, which is right. Water seemed to be flowing, so water pump seems to be working. I did notice that there was no pressure released when I took the radiator cap off. Also, there is a radiator overflow tank. It doesnt seem to ever get HOT water overflow from the radiator though.

Questions:

- Is it really running hot? Could the engine be partially blocked and I have HOT spots?
- Even though the temp sending unit looks new, could it be bad and messing up my gauge?
- Why the hard/funny start when the engine is hot?
- Could the head gasket be blocking some of the water outlets?
- Problem with the mixture of different year blk/head?

Thanks for any help!!!!

DB

 

[addo]

It could well be the original block with another head popped on. Falcon and Mustang blocks didn't vary in this respect. You won't have a head gasket blockage per se , but some of the passages are deliberately constricted on aftermarket gaskets to (theoretically) disperse the coolant better.

Sounds like clogged water passages to me as well! A shop reverse flush might be interesting. Your heater core may be blocked also.

Don't trust the factory gauge for temperature unless you've scoped it out fully. Your sender, voltage reg and gauge unit can all show discrepancies.

Heat soak to the starter is a common enough problem but more often found with some close-to-the starter brands of header. A healthy battery, correctly undercut starter commutator and good solenoid are all positives to confirm.

Oh, and since it's your first post, I guess we can spare a welcome.

Cheers, Adam.

 

[Anonymous]

First thing I would do would -replace the radiator cap. May be faulty and is a part that seems to never get replaced. If holding too much pressure will cause excess heat. Kinda like a pressure cooker. May try squezing and releasing upper hose while water is circulateing and see if maybe an air pocket is causing you problems. Also check that the timing is around 10-12* at idle, improper timing causes heat also. Hot start reaction is typical of a hot engine especially one that has too much advance in the timing.

 

[ludwig]

Addo is a thorough and generous soul. However, he failed to point out that running hot is a common complaint heard by Sixers. There are several threads here about radiators and cooling. You would do well to explore some of them. A common aftermarket fix is the three row radiator. There are other low tech fixes as well, such as the reverse flush. And welcome to the fray.

 

[LaGrasta]

Discontect all the hoses and run a garden hose through it until it's clear. YOu'll freak when you see the guck pour out. Fill it with water, drieve a VERY short while. Flush again. Refill with antifreeze, new cap & stat and you should be good to go. If htat doens't help, then evaluate if your radiator is just too far gone. If it is, replace. If it isn't add an electric fan. After that, you can do away with the mechanical fan altogether.

 

[MustangSix]

A lot of older Falcons and Mustangs suffer from cooling problems, but except in extreme climates the stock system is adequate. The usual culprit is rust and debris that clogs the radiator, cutting cooling capacity. Back flushing the radiaotr helps, but often it requires a trip to the radiator shop to have the core cleaned.

The heater core is suffering from the same problem. It is probably clogged, letting little water flow thru it. The most cost effective fix is to replace it with a new one and rebuild the ehater box at the same time with new seals and foams.

 

[StraightSixer]

Isn't there a way to cut off flow to the heater core altogether? Since it is summer practically you can probably take it out of commish while you fix it.

 

[ludwig]

Just loop one heater hose from the water pump out to the water pump in. Reconnect in the fall.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy DB and all:

And welcome to the forum.

A commonly overlooked problem is an old lower radiator hose. with time the coiled wire inside corrodes away. When the pump sucks it causes the hose to collapse, or cavitate stopping water flow.

Verify that-
*initial advance is not retarded
*all guage components are working properly
*cap and hoses are correct and working.

If all is correct, intact and functioning properly, proceed with flush and fill.

If it still shows hot, pull and have the radiator cores rodded out & pressure checked.

The electric fan conversion is a good suggestion under any circumstances.

FoMoCo used an "Empty bin" policy at the assembly plants. It is not unlikely that your Pony got parts from the Falcon bin and from previous years. It is also possible that parts have been replaced and swapped with whatever is available. You may never know for sure.

Adios, David

 

[Anonymous]

First, let me start out by thanking everyone. All the advice is a appreciated. Here's what I tried and where I'm at now.

1. Replaced the radiator cap. I did notice that now I have pressure build up, unlike the old cap. But, the "overheating" stayed the same.

2. I found my timing light which was buried in the cellar since I've not needed one for about 20 years. Of course, it didnt work. Off to autozone and got a replacement. The timing appeared to be WAY off. So, I set it to about 12 BTDC. Thought for sure, this would fix the problem. Well, it still shows overheating. But, the hard start after hot engine symtom seems to be fixed. Yeah - progress!!

3. I disconnected the heater hoses from the engine. Used the garden hose to flush it out. Yuck - full of crap. I did that several times in each direction until all I got was clear water. Now I have heat!! But my gauge still shows hot.

4. Decided to try the back flush kit from prestone. Didnt see much dirt or junk dumped out as a result - but I figured it could only help. Engine still showed hot.

All of the above was last weekend. So, during the week I tried to drive it a little and see if anything changes. About mid-week, I started to notice a puddle under the engine. It appears that now the water pump is leaking. I dont know if its a result of stuff I did or not. Maybe the new radiator cap put more pressure on the pump. Or, maybe the back flush did something.

My next step is to replace the water pump. While I'm at it, i'll take the radiator out and take it to the local radiator repair shop. Hopefully one of those will fix my problem.

Anything I should worry about while buying a new pump? Any difference in quality from NAPA or the retail autozone/advanced auto,etc?

Thanks again for the feedback. I'll let everyone know how it turns out!

DB

 

[WhitePony]

How about the temperature sending unit? You may be chasing phantoms if the sending unit is putting out the wrong resistance.

 

[shetland]

Welcome DB,
I just went through the same thing with my pony. I replaced the radiator with a three core. I drove it yesterday and had no problem. It was 110 degrees here in Phoenix AZ yesterday. The only other thing I need to install is a shroud as I heated up to about 3/4 guage when i was not moving.
I also found that I had to double up the water pump gasket so that the impeller fins didn't hit the #1 cylinder wall inside of the block. Make sure that the water pump turns freely after install and before you bolt any thing else. I cut my extra gasket out of a sheet of thick gasket material.
Good luck
Dale

 

[gtm1086]

You may want to try installing a 160 degree t-stat. I have also found that if you drill a small no larger that 1/8" hole in the flange of the t-stat it will help vent off any steam?air in the system. Also make sure that your timing is not retarded.

 

[Anonymous]

As I understand it, water pumps are pretty much the same, i.e. not much difference between those at one retailer or another.

Another thing; fill your coolant and see if you are losing any after driving. Indeed it could be your water pump, but it could be a blown head gasket, or in my case, a leaky freeze plug on the firewall side of the motor.

Also, as has been mentioned above in dealing with this problem, watch that lower radiator hose. If it is soft or spongy, replace it with one that has a coiled wire in it to make sure it does not collapse under pressure, thus restricting flow.

Inliners often upgrade to a three or four row radiator, as well as replacing the original fan with a flex fan. Just be careful to not increase cooling capacity in one way, and cover up a ongoing cooling problem that has not been fixed.

Stay with it, you will figure it out.
Ryan

 

[Anonymous]

One thing that can make the gauge screwy is the in-dash "CV" (constant Voltage) regulator. If it is too "high" it will make the temp appear higher than normal, but it will also make the gas gauge read high, like'way past FULL when filled up. That's one clue to it's status: another test is to hook up a small dashboard light bulb, maybe using 'gator clips, to the "hot" wire on the gauge. You'll see the lamp flash ON-OFF-ON-OFF rather quickly, typically at 1/2 to 1 second intervals. Try to estimate the ON vs. OFF times: they should be pretty equal. When they get too old, they stay ON too long, which raises all the gauge readings on the dash...

Another thing that can make a rebuilt 200 engine run hot is low compression. This can happen if the head gasket is thick, like a FelPro gasket. These are about 100% thicker (twice as thick) than the original gaskets and can lower the compression ratio by a whole number, like from 9:1 down to 8:1. The result is more heat with less efficiency.

Also, I recently discovered (in Colorado, at least) that the sparkplug listings of Champion and Splitfire at Checker Auto are too hot for the older Mustang version of the 200 engine: they are listing the Fairmont genre plugs, which are for EGR-fed engines. You might want to try one step colder on the sparkplugs.

These water pumps tend to move very little water at idle speeds, which increases engine heating in slow traffic. You can check with that new one to make sure the clearance between the impeller and the block is as small as practical (test it with clay) to improve the pump's efficiency (go for less than .100" clearance). I like the TRW pump, when I can find one, because the bushing is better quality.

Rich carbing makes heat in slow running, too. So, make sure your carb is not set too rich, that the power valve inside of it is not leaking, and that there are no vacuum leaks. All these things will also make these inlines heat up in slow driving situations.

 

[I66coupe]

I recently replaced the stock 4 blade fan with a 5 blade fan from a Maverick with A/C. Its larger in diameter and has more blades. It fit right on the stock spacer. I had to trim the battery hold-down clamp for clearance. The radiator inlet and outlet clear the blades. This fan moves WAY more air than the stock fan and covers the radiator better. Temps have been cool here in MN lately so I haven't yet checked it out in hot weather.

I'm taking a trip to Orlando in a week and I'll see how it does down there.

 

[Guest]

Sometimes improper gapping on plugs can heat it up too. I think ths smaller the gap, the more heat on the motor. Check the specs on the gapping of the plugs (I dont know them off hand), and make sure you have the right plugs in there. I usually just call a retailer and act like Im buying plugs, and he looks up the number, and you can get the gap from that guy that way too.

 

[Anonymous]

What is that distance between the fan blads and the radiator? It looks too far in the picture. Although your battery clamp is a problem, most engines I have use a clearance of about 1" (Dodge van) to 1/2" (1967 Ford LTD) with my much-modified Fairmont at 3/4".

If it is over 1", you're losing almost 50% of the flow at idle speeds.

 

[I66coupe]

Not sure what sort of clearance I have between the radiator and fan blades. You'll have to wait a couple weeks for an answer. I'm leaving on the power tour in a few minutes.