Adding aluminum head to 250 in a 66 Mustang (engine running video added)

S

Stryker7314

Well-known member
What sort of things are a concern if adding the following to a stock 200 and c-4 with approx 95k miles. Is it a bad idea to not rebuild?

Aluminum head
YT roller rockers
Cam 264/264-109
Weber 38/38 DGS-2V
Dual Roller Timing Chain
Weber Fuel Pressure Regulator
D.U.I. distributor

Edit: Changed to a 250 build and T-5 trans. Component changes are in the thread.

Current list of things to do along with a pic of the lower radiator hose and vbelt installed. Again I've never done 99% of these things so any advice is welcome. Youtube has been my friend on this journey.

X Radiator Lower Hose- installed
X V-belt model Dayco 15485 Top Cog- installed
X Electric Choke installed no longer a choke delete (no room for a manual or electric choke so going without one, I can close it manually to start if need be but I'll just feather the gas to get her warmed up. Need to cover the vacuum port on the choke side, the manual choke I bought had a lead ball to do it with but I don't want a permanent solution so may just use some strong tape like gorilla tape to seal it off)
X Starter Powermaster 9503 (probably next thing I'm gonna do, requires some wiring modifications (longer wires)
X Fuel Line (needs relocation) taking line to advance auto and buying a longer one - ez and coming right up as well
X Pedal Assemblies (using air cutter to modify stock brake pedal and installing MDL clutch pedal)
X Driveshaft & Yolk (gonna need to get her to a driveshaft shop for this one)
X Wiring in for reverse lights (small adapter available and need to order)
X Exhaust has to be re-bent to fit properly since engine was dropped and it's too close to the Bellhousing (gonna try to install it myself and if no dice I'll go to an exhaust shop)
X Modify for the speedometer cable (have the Modern Drivelines kit and will install it myself)
X Route air cleaner (gonna do this nearly last to avoid removing it constantly)
X Cutout for the clutch cylinder and install clutch cylinder (I'll find a firewall location for this, currently calls for cutting the firewall where the front brakeline distribution block is and I'm not re-routing that if I can help it, instructions call for that location because it would be "compatible with all clutch setups", no thanks)
X Fabricate accelerator linkage (cross this bridge toward the end)
X Alternator wiring has to be stretched to opposite side of engine bay (need to get wire and spades to extend wiring to other side)
X Distributor wiring
X Intake Manifold vacuum port hole, need to plug it.

Edit: Updated with completed items.
 
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With that mileage you would be better to rebuild this engine.
Without knowing all the specs on your block, such as are you going to zero deck?? CC's in the head.
The DUI is not the best distributor for your engine.
The advance is a generic deal where one size fits all.
The DS11 or my HEI would be your best choice & can be set up for your engine. Bill
 
Stryker7314":leu6ja7w said:
What sort of things are a concern if adding the following to a stock 200 and c-4 with approx. 95k miles. Is it a bad idea to not rebuild?

Aluminum head
YT roller rockers
Cam 264/264-109
Weber 38/38 DGS-2V
Dual Roller Timing Chain
Weber Fuel Pressure Regulator
D.U.I. distributor
Click to expand...



You don't have to rebuild.

IMHO, Its always a bad idea not to rebuild.
1.The rings and bearings and crud in the engine may prevent the cam bedding in.
2. The rod bolts are suspect, and
3. pump pickup and
4. main rope seal are likely to be a problem.
5. Getting the lifters out and checking the cam bearings are important.
6. Generally, cam bearing wear is low, but oil galley cleanness is always suspect.

7. The Weber is known to suffer heat induced Hot Fuel handling lean outs which our modern gasoline and OEM or aftermarket fuel pumps make worse.

8. You'll have to use headers which will increase the problems.

9. The C4 has a tight 1650 stall ratio which requires a really good ignition set up to cover a huge off idle hole caused by low gas speed and huge intake ports on the CI or Vintage In-lines head.
10. The D.U.I, unless its custom reworked, wouldn't be my first choice.

its important to have a strategy if problems expand in these areas; but its your choice.

The stock 65 rwhp always goes on up to at least 50%, and 65 rwhp was 95hp net horsepower, and even our first auto 2V Ford head swap C4 auto dialed in at 105 rwhp in 2002. When any lower tier 260, 289 2-bbl was rated at 164 or 195 gross, the little six is often quicker and lots of fun.

You're doing the right thing. You decide on if you wanna skip a rebuild.

The whole Aluminum head, cam and intake swap forces you to do the exhaust and fuel system too.
 
100K is nota lot to go forward on. W/da rest? mights well redo.
Y shoot ur wad on these upgrades (major) w/o the rest? U wanna collapse
after the "add ons"? Course not, Cam, head, the rest? All lost. Begin from
square one or fahgedaboudid. Matt, (beddah) or us can assist - do it right~

short answ:
"... things are a concern if ..."
an auto is a system = change 1 thing it effects the others. Breaks, suspension, other
drive train components, also depends On Use (final application) can't tell unless ID it ALL...
 
Thanks for the advice, I do have a freshly built 200 short block I got from fast64ranchero that has forged rods and arp'd mains and rods with everything else new that has been zero decked on standby but wasn't sure if I needed it for my light application. Couldn't find the for sell listing otherwise I would probably know more. I will get it all built at a machine shop then drop it in. It is a weekend cruiser and nothing more, will never be raced or tracked, just want a little more power than stock and reliable. Long story short I was just going to go the lazy route if I could, I know lame. If anyone knows someone near Jacksonville, NC that wants this job please let them know. I am mechanically inclined but this is well above my paygrade because I have zero experience building/installing an engine though I have been reading about it and watching videos for the last two years. All that did was help me familiarize myself with everything but also know someone else should be doing the job.

Other components going on or available:
Headers
Single 2.25" Exhaust
Carb hat remote induction
Holley Electric Fuel Pump Red
ARP studs all around
Rebuilt Harmonic balancer
Billet Water Pump Pulley
Aluminum rad with electric fan
Weber DGV Carb Spacer & Base Insulator
Stock Valve Cover

Other things-
Doesn't have power steering, power breaks or a/c and I will leave it that way.
Added dual rate springs to the front and composite leaf springs to the back and sway bars front and back.
Deleted rear seat, all carpet, all the sound matting, sanded it all down and POR-15'd it and will not be adding those back.
Swapped Corbeau Classic buckets to the front w/sliding brackets, and shoulder locking seatbelts
Added dual bowl master cylinder, kind of wanted disk brake fronts but I want to keep my stock 14' with spoke hubcaps because I like the stock look and they only make disks for 15's from what I found.
Swapped in Ididit Pro-Lite Collapsible steering column
 
Since you are going to run Yella-Terra 1.65 full roller rocker arms you need to block the oil passage in the block that goes to the head & shaft rocker arms.
Reason the head gasket cannot seal full line oil pressure & you will have an oil leak at the drivers side rear of the block.
pHlIcii.jpg

With YT's you need to use small block ford lifters which are oil through.
The YT's get there oil through the pushrods.
 
"...I will get it all built at a machine shop..."
I'm glad U R still researching the full build. Some assumptions may B wrong but w/the research - B4 U drop it off (4 mo?) U will have the knowledge to TELL the shop (w/understanding) what U want (not them telling U). Now this is just my style, but a house? should know something abt building, build an auto? (ur straying frm OEM) a good bit of knowledge can go far (keep them on track, get $ worth, understand components, etc). Thanks for checkin in w/us.

W E L C O M E !!!
to the forum (& site)
U got lucky already &
have been visited w/by
2 of the international
experts of these motors.
Get a 3rd: "the Handbook"
@:
https://www.vintageinlines.com/product- ... e-handbook
& ck in at the big blue box above (click on the crossed screwdriver'n wrench) NOW w/the latest 'migration'
Tech Archive
 
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Yes I am very grateful and appreciate everyones inputs and time while I try and get another awesome straight six build on the road. I have picked up that book and plan to have it available to the machine shop as well as point them to this forum in case of questions. Hope it is possible to get a dependable hopped up six engine because some of the comments almost just make me want to keep it stock lol!
 
Stryker7314":1aekql67 said:
...almost just make me want to keep it stock lol!
Click to expand...
Plenty 2B said bout that as well. Mild ta wild we like 'em -most- . ;)
 
wsa111":b92hen8r said:
Since you are going to run Yella-Terra 1.65 full roller rocker arms you need to block the oil passage in the block that goes to the head & shaft rocker arms.
Reason the head gasket cannot seal full line oil pressure & you will have an oil leak at the drivers side rear of the block.
pHlIcii.jpg

With YT's you need to use small block ford lifters which are oil through.
The YT's get there oil through the pushrods.
Click to expand...

What's the best way to block the oil passage?

I just got a wild hair and I'm considering getting an engine stand and building this myself slowly... :unsure: :mrgreen:

I'm confident about bolting parts on and using a torque wrench, issue is the techincal stuff like degreeing the cam, timing chain, and distributor... I should be able to figure it out... mehbe.

What other concerns like the oil passage exist?
I'm aware of the head stud that needs to be sealed and not threaded too far because it will hit the water pump impeller or something to that effect. :beer:
 
"...not threaded (in) too far..." right concept/wrong idea.
The #11 head stud (recommended over bolts, more later) has the oil passage, the #13 may need grinding off (not even a 1/4 inch usually, do it and feel) the bottom due to H2O pump impeller interfearence. Also apply the 'goop' to water seal/protect from rust.
The studs allow easy assembly, removal/replace later, have the best clamping force. We use something like this:
https://www.vintageinlines.com/product- ... 70-200-250
as we wish to support our member Matt. He caters to these motors exclusively. So what comes around goes around~
:oops:
( o0OP, that's the iron head, go to the nxt page for the alu stud. )
 
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chad":38662s3z said:
"...not threaded (in) too far..." right concept/wrong idea.
The #11 head stud (recommended over bolts, more later) has the oil passage, the #13 may need grinding off (not even a 1/4 usually, do it and feel) the bottom due to H2O pump impeller interfearence. Also apply the 'goop' to water seal/protect from rust.
The studs allow easy assembly, removal/replace later, have the best clamping force. We use something like this:
https://www.vintageinlines.com/product- ... 70-200-250
as we wish to support our member Matt. He caters to these motors exclusively. So what comes around goes around~
:oops:
( o0OP, that's the iron head, go to the nxt page for the alu stud. )
Click to expand...

So do I need to block the oil passage with a stud that comes with the aluminum head ARP bolts? or another way?

Trust me I have gotten everything from Matt, from exhaust components, aluminum head to everything that goes on that engine lol.

If I am limiting the fuel pressure to 3 psi with the weber regulator do I need the electric pump or stick with the mechanical?

Does it make any sense to bolt the short block to the motor mounts then work on it in the bay and add cam/head/all other components? or is that a bad idea?
 
Stryker7314":hyiud25o said:
So do I need to block the oil passage with a stud that comes with the aluminum head ARP bolts? or another way?

Trust me I have gotten everything from Matt, from exhaust components, aluminum head to everything that goes on that engine lol.

If I am limiting the fuel pressure to 3 psi with the weber regulator do I need the electric pump or stick with the mechanical?

Does it make any sense to bolt the short block to the engine then work on it in the bay and add cam/head/all other components? or is that a bad idea?
Click to expand...

You can't use a stud or a bolt to seal off that rear oil passageway nothing can be sticking up above the blocks deck surface. This is usally done using a set screw (Allen head) by taping the hole with threads then the set screw threaded in so its not sticking up above the block deck surface.

On fuel pumps it depends on your likes the stock mechacnical pump will probally handle the engines fuel needs or if you like the electric type pumps that will work too. In any case you should run a fuel return line system to keep the fuel from getting to hot you can probally also skip the regulator just by using the return line system and installing a metering jet in the line to get the fuel pressure right.

Yes its much better and faster to work on the engine out of car if you have the room to do it. To get an idea in what's involved in doing all this work check out the set of videos by Echo1955 see the below link showing a full mild performance rebuild of a 1965 Mustang 200 six. Your parts selection for the most part is very good the cam may or may not not be the ideal.

Not a fan of the D.U.I. Ignistion or the China H.E.I. Clones yes they can be made to work but how much is it going to cost in time and money? I like the DuraSpark II for a budget type build up or a Hi Performance build with a few parts upgrades. There is a newer solution now that's totally digital so no more mechanical advance parts to wear out and is programed by using your smart phone, I Pad, ect. These are a little more cost upfront than the base price of the D.U.I. before you start working on fixing its flaws. Check out the Progression Ignition distributor features for the Ford small six (and other engines too) in the end it is likely to be less money and time for a much better ignistion system. https://progressionignition.com/shop/ol ... istributor

For best performance results out of your engine combo you will also need to change a few things in your C4. This includes changing to a 1967 or newer valve body (or replace the compleate C4 to a 1972 or newer trans that has all of Fords factory internal improvements) then install a TransGo shift Kit, plus you need to get a higher stall torque convertor, and adding a small trans cooler for longer life. With your taking the time to ask questions and do things right you should get really great results out of your engine build. Best of luck on your 200 rebuild. (y) :nod: Edited

Echo1955's 200 Rebuild Videos
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77528
 
The stud kit does not block the oil passage. The rf stud extends into the area where the water pump impeller is. You might have to grind the end of the stud to prevent interference there.
Also since it is the only stud that goes into water it needs sealer put on it during final assembly.
Before you tap out the oil passage at the LR of the block stuff some cloth or a small section of a paper towel into the passage so chips from tapping do not go down into the oil passage.
I believe i used a 5/16 set screw to block the passage. Tap just enough to get the set screw below the surface. Before installing you need to remove the chips & cloth of paper with a magnet & a shop vacuum cleaner.
Remove the oil sender & blow compressed air into the passage & that will blow out any remaining chips of metal.
Put sealer on the set screw & the install till it bottoms out & seals the passage.
 
When I first did the Aussie 250-2v head swap I didn't do a rebuild.
I did the head with a 350 Holley, cam/lifters, DSII and headers. Nothing else. This engine ran good for many years. Don't ask how many because I don't remember. :shock:

The second time around with the aluminum head I did do a rebuild because of the items mentioned above.

You could also opt for adjustable 1.6 rockers. In my mind I didn't see the benefit of the YT Rockers for a weekend cruiser/summer car.

I would also skip the DUI. Beside's the concerens mentioned above. It is ugly in the engine compartment. :)
 
"...skip the DUI..."
yup. DSII all the way
or
hybrid DSII/hei 4 pin
(go fast 4 less:
http://www.gofastforless.com
modern cam'n carb upgrade, may B headers,
APR rod bolts, timing set, H2O & oil pump,
dissasemble ck berrings, rings...
All just insurance.
:nod:
 
HEI Module on a GM heat sink.
I do have one left for sale $75.00 + $7.00 shipping.
Wa0E24v.jpg

This can be used to trigger the DS11. However you also need a coil such as the MSD Blaster 2.
 
Stryker7314":l509467c said:
What sort of things are a concern if adding the following to a stock 200 and c-4 with approx 95k miles. Is it a bad idea to not rebuild?

Aluminum head
YT roller rockers
Cam 264/264-109
Weber 38/38 DGS-2V
Dual Roller Timing Chain
Weber Fuel Pressure Regulator
D.U.I. distributor
Click to expand...
Check your private messages cause i sent you one.
 
bubba22349":2l9mq0dx said:
HI Stryker, how are you doing on your 200 rebuild plans. :nod:
Click to expand...

Still undecided on who will build it but leaning toward a machine shop.

Waiting on a few more parts: water pump
alum head arp studs
Fuel blockoff plate
Weber adapter for the aluminum intake manifold

Other than those I have everything else listed above and want to get this show on the road. :D
 
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