Another Turbo 200 nears completion....

[Guest]

I had thrown that to does 10s, who also runs cast pistons.

With 20 psi boost, you got some serious detonation going.

I used to pop out the wristpins with a pin press at my dads shop long ago, and, with the junk cast pistons if I was P.O.'ed, Id whip the cast piston against the tile floor in there to see how she responded. An easy crack, chip, bust in half.

Even my Merkur project ended, with forged pistons @ 20 PSI. The outer edge of the piston cracked, and all pressure on the cylinder just leaked past the rings. At least it didnt shatter, like cast pistons, and ruin the rest of the motor.

Go forged, please. You can street-strip, and not have to tow to and from, in the fear that if you blew a motor, you didnt need a tow truck to tow you a hundred miles.

 

[Stubby]

Detonation can be avoided at 20 psi and cast pistons are tuffer than most people realise. I have ran them in budget restricted and rule restricted engines, as long as you avoid detonation they are great.

Forged pistons will also die from detonation as you stated. The 20psi didn't kill them the detonation killed them!!! If you were running cast pistons you probably would have grenaded the whole engine.

You can't tell someone they can't do something they are already doing. Forged pistons don't prevent destruction they only prolong it and give some safety margin. I would prefere a well designed cast piston over a stock replacement TRW forged slug that weighs a ton and has a slotted oil return under the oil ring

 

[Anonymous]

WOW, so MUCH!! I'll try to keep up...

IMO:

1 ) Do a large valve conversion with decently heavy porting and a 5 angle. Use the teflon seals when you decide to start, the umbrellas are the worst. Get the guides checked and replaced if necessary with bronze. The head is crucial.

2 ) Check for grooves on the block, either bore or just ball hone to spec. If you have an accurate scale and a wheel grinder, you can balance your own rods, pm me for ideas on that, Ive done hundreds. The wrist pin has to be popped out, but maybe a shop can do that.

3 ) Put a high volume or high pressure oil pump, upgrade that.

4 ) Change ALL seals, gaskets etc. Do it all the way, do it right, do it cheap, and have all the upgrades you can ever want for only slightly more.

5 ) Put a chunky cam in there do research on whats the best for race app with good tall lift and long dur., even research for a good roller system, or if you dont decide on that, an adjustable rocker system is here sitting for donation, all you have to do is buy a set of four pushrods, the other 8 or 9 are here.

6 ) I'd put an oil cooler on it, since that turbo oil gets the whole oil temp high and the pressure low. Use straight 60 oil, and change after every other trip to the strip.

My dad runs straight 70 in his dragster, and dumps it after every run.

7 ) Blows less oil, and some "glue" would help seal those rings. Youll get a more efficient and possibly quicker run once the car is warmed up for 5 minutes, and your compression % will go up sealing the guides, seals and most importantly the rings. 20(?) psi is pushing past some old rings, and hindering your performance. Throwing thick oil in a loose engine is a great way to tighten it up.

8 ) I hope you IC it with something substansial, or even a good route is a front mount Volvo in front of the rad. Volvos are CHEAP at the boneyard.

9 ) With your air inlet idea, be really careful with that. Road debris...well you know. Id disconnect it in transporting it.

10 ) All those ideas combined wouldnt take that much more money, not much more work than youd already be doing, and make it run maybe in the 12.5 or BETTER BETTER BETTER, IMO

11 ) To be honest, I JUST looked at your time slip (it was missing earlier), and your launch needs work or 60ft., the mph is "somewhat" low for that et.

12 ) I hope the tranny wasn't slipping. You are gonna need more rpm or shorter gears to pick up speed. If you are looking at 1/4 mile only, you max out at peak HP and rpm at the line.

13 ) I've read that the stock bottom end is good for 7000 rpm. Is that what you are shooting for? From a system standpoint isn't that related to the cam? I can easily see the stock cam pooping out at 5000.

14 ) I think you should pop for an A/F gauge and sensor.

15 ) The pinging and oil burning sound bad. But it IS running, and hard !!

16 ) I can't tell you guy's how much this impresses me.

17 ) . Here's 2 cents.

1. Build a new stock motor, but build it right. Blueprint (I hate that term) it. Fit your rings, balance your rotating assembly, cc your chambers. get everything as right as it can be.
2. Move up one notch. Build a stock bottom end, ditto above. Use your new rods with stock pistons, but get a cam !!

18 ) A/F is my big worry. I see the carb as the weak link in this whole picture. You just can't really tell what is happening unless something blows up.

1 ) Getting the head done right is a huge priority. A great engine with a crappy head will run like a crappy engine.
I plan on bronze guides and stainless valves.

2 ) The next block I have is standard bore, no ridge.
It will be honed straight and true a few thousands larger and standard forged pistons are ready to go in (you need to go back and read the thread again)

3 ) I have never seen a HV oil pump for a 200.

4 ) I have, like, 5 gasket sets already? (go back and read the thread again )

5 ) I bought and received and have ready a FSPP 214*/214* @ .050" cam (go back and read the thread again )

6 ) It doesn't get that hot in 13 seconds! I use Shell Rotella T 15W-40 weight with 1/2 quart of Lucas oil stabilizer.

7 ) I don't think thicker oil will help at this point.

8 ) I HAVE a FMIC (go back and read the thread again page 1! )
Volvo intercoolers grenade over 15 psi and are just barely enough for 2 liters and are completely worthless for what I am trying to accomplish (read: WAAAY too small!)

9 ) I plug it with a piece of foam when not in use - is for track only.

10 ) Just a super 60 foot would get me in the 12's!!!

11 ) For the 1/8 th, no way. For the 1/4, yes.
A guy with a firebird was running 13.6 at 106 - he was pissed I was faster than him! ( a couple posts up - go back and read )

12 ) Tranny was not slipping, it was working perfectly!
I am not going to change gears (that is way too much hassle and money involved!)
What I NEED is more RPM's in high gear.

13 ) I'll take what ever I can get RPM wise. The stock cam - - - when testing this engine N/A with a freshly rebuilt carb - - - topped out at only 4,000 RPM. That was it. The boost is good for another 1500 RPM on top of that.

14 ) I have one ! (go back and read the thread again )

15 ) It was terrible on the last run, and I hit 10 psi on the return road and it was pinging. This motor is worn out.

16 ) I am impressed myself!!! I NEVER, EVER thought I would make it this far!!!

17 ) I already have forged pistons. The new rods (look up a few posts - - pic ) are on their way. I have new bearings and rings. I have a cam - - 214*/214* @ .050"
I will be checking all clearanaces closely. I do plan on balancing it.



Oh yeah, just one more thing for y'all - - - - - - - - - - (go back and read the thread again )


Thanks for all the comments....More to come!!! AS ALWAYS!)
Linc

 

[Stubby]

Yes sir

 

[Anonymous]

Me too

I type real slow, and I missed about 4 posts by the time I got mine in there.

I have read about this high RPM capacity 7 main engine in a couple of mag articles. I wonder if that is acheivable with the log. Most of the copy included photo's of a chopped log with individual injectors or carbs for each port.

The tuning involved is over my head. Do you mess with total timing and jets? or are there mysterious hand wavings and incantations involved? I know how to read plugs, but never had to deal with pre ignition much.

 

[Guest]

214? More lift, Lincs, more lift more lift more lift=more flow. More duration too. More duration more duration. 8)

Get them valves way open. IMO.

 

[Anonymous]

214? More lift, Lincs, more lift more lift

214 degrees at .050"
The cam Will and Kelly ("Does 10's") runs is 224 degrees at .050" lift.


Duration @ .050" is the standard by which all cams are measured. At least by true performance enthusiasts.
"Advertised Duration" (264 degrees, 272 degress, etc. ) is not as important.


I wasn't trying to get on your cases - - - I just think you are missing out on a lot of good information if you are skipping over certain portions of the thread. I think a lot of people are learning from this experience of mine, but the knowledge is useless if you only have part of the story.

 

[Funky Cricket]

melling makes a pretty beefy oil pump for the 200. I can't remember where I got mine but I was working for a melling machine shop at the time. might want to give them a call. i can't rememeber flow numbers but it was better than stock.

(i was making 35 lbs of oil pressure on two spun bearings..if thats not beefy i don't know what is )

I have to think that the log is the limiting factor, even more so than the 1 bbl. this is a great engine, just the head is a dog.

have you pulled it apart yet, was 1 and 6 the worst?

 

[Anonymous]

have you pulled it apart yet, was 1 and 6 the worst?

Ill do this so link's doesnt have to,

Go back and read through the thread!! There are pics!

 

[wallaka]

:rolflmao: :rolflmao: :rolflmao:

RTFM!!!

 

[Anonymous]

1) melling makes a pretty beefy oil pump for the 200.
2) have you pulled it apart yet, was 1 and 6 the worst?

1) Thanks for that!
2) Nope - still runs smooth on all six, just burns a lot of oil.

 

[Anonymous]

Go back and read through the thread!! There are pics!

that was the FIRST time I grenaded the engine - and it was NOT running smoothly on all six!!

Right now it runs fine, but with lots of oil smoke.

 

[Linc's 200]

1) I believe it's gotta be the 1bbl. Just not enough flow. I'd spring for the 2bbl upgrade, since you've already got the A/F gauge, the I/C et al. I read the buildup part! (I'm a geek.)
2) As far as you've come, I don't believe that there's much I could tell you that you wouldn't have thought of already. Good job!

Thanks, I can't say I have thought of everything, though.
This old dog is always trying to learn new tricks!!

1 ) I guess the import guys are holding a blow off valve open at the line and slamming it shut at the launch.

2 ) I think you've exceeded the 300 more rpm than NA at 5500 with a stock cam. It is shorter on lift and duration than any other engine.

3 ) I'd wait until you take the motor apart before you make any decisions. Maybe you'll discover a problem.

4 ) How was your rebuild? Ridge removed, bores honed? What's your crank case ventilation like?

5 ) On your forged rods I'd knock off the hugh balance pads and rebalance yourself like sixty-2-tonfalcon suggested. They're there for factory ease of balancing but they won't do you any good hammering up and down.

6 ) I know you want to try and get the best ET out of your stock one-barrel combo engine but more HP could be made with less stress on the engine with pocket porting, back cut valves, maybe larger exhaust valves - I ran 1 1/2" - maybe larger turbo, cam and a little more induction.

7 ) PS - I think you're doing a great job. What are you at? 5 times the stock HP with a stock engine.

1 ) That sounds like too much work. I'm looking at maybe using a transbrake.

2 ) If I do the math right I am definitely over 300 HP at the flywheel. I would like to dyno it so I can see the line drop dramaticly as I "hit the wall" !!!

3) I don't expect any major damage like before - - - Just really worn stuff, maybe some small cracks but we'll see!

4) I never rebuilt it.

THAT IS WORTH REPEATING - - -
This engine has NEVER, EVER been rebuilt!

I used two pistons from another used engine to replace my broken ones. They were in an engine that had already had the head off. I pounded them out, did a half as$ed clean up on them, then dropped them in . EVEN USED THE SAME RINGS!! No new parts - except the timing chain. NOT REBUILT.






All used, high mileage stuff for ALL THE TESTING I HAVE DONE UP TO THIS POINT!!







See - - - that is another amazing thing about this whole entire 1 bbl experiment. This engine has 1xx,xxx miles on it.


It is not like I started with a fresh engine then turboed it - - - - -
NO - the whole idea behind turbocharging the 200 six in the first place was because they are worth just as much at the scrap yard with all the rods in the bottom of the oil pan as they are when running well.


I had already built up a twin-turbo, all forged, aluminum headed 351W to go in the car.

These six bangers were just a distraction. Since they were prety much free and I had no plans for them, and no one wanted to buy them, I was going to drop one after another in the car and nitrous/boost the smithereens out of them until they were all used up.




Problem is - I haven't really "broke" one yet. I mean "broke" by pieces scattered about and such.....



That was my original plan. I have since got sidetracked.....

Funny thing is that dude in the El Camino blew up his $5,000 big block chevy doing a burnout! I still have stock CAST rods......


5 ) Good idea. I will run that idea by my balancer/machinist.

6 ) I do plan on working the head over. I also am thinking of moving up to a P-trim turbo with a V-1 compressor, but right now I need faster boost, and the "O" trim/S-3 makes plenty of boost.

7 ) THANK YOU!!! I am having way more fun with this 200 six than I thought I would have had.
I was originally just going to blow these engines up and get rid of them, but this is a bigger challenge and I am really enjoying myself.
No one around here is doing what I am doing, and there are alot of folks volunteering/giving their old 200's to me (word of mouth travels fast!)

stock = 88 HP I guess I am around 3-1/2 times as much as stock??

 

[Guest]

Yeah, Ive been reading the whole tread along the way, but I forget details along the way. Its hard to review 6 pages to find out what I forgot. Just trying to help.

I have cast iron, billet, and forged aluminum chips flowing through my veins, growing up in a machine shop, and pops did it once and did it RIGHT. I get guys at cruise spots who, when I bring up my name, some have said they still have his motors in their hot rods for 25 years and running.

Thats him of course, but I learned a chunk along the way, and not trying to be egotistical in saying what I said, Ive had my share of experience, thats all. Doesnt mean Im right, its all just IMO, take it as a "consideration" at the least, or consider it just garbage info.

Wed all love to see you in the 11's down the road with a tight motor, and what youve done with a "weaker" (not as an insult, as a realistic statement) motor is, well, freakin awesome! I was reeally hoping that motor would have gotten into the 12's, but looking like shooting a dead horse.

Lucky its fall, the best time to switch setups.

OK, so this is all IMO, to let you know.

There are other cams with more lift and duration (lift being how much the valve will be open at tdc (more flow of air in, exhaust out)) duration being the length of time in reference to 360 degrees that the valve is open. They all are referenced at .050, which is the least important aspect of the cams specs. Its how much the valve is opened (lift) and how long its opened (duration) thats the most important aspect of a cams performance. If the duration also has a good lift throughout, that is also something to look for in a cam. If, during the duration, the lift is considerably diminished, it isnt as good as a cam which has a high lift on the duration of valve opening.

There are some greatcams hope you find the best one after alot of research. Maybe Ill look in Isky's catalogue and find something up to date for perfomance.

Anotherwards if a cam has a higher lift and longer duration (at the same spec .050 or whatever), you got more flow in AND out, at a longer amount of time. Guess what, higer rpms too More of the A/F mixture coming in, more exhaust blowing out. A bigger cam is like porting th crap out of the head as far as flow, but port the crap out of the head too to double it up.

As far as valve seals, the more they seal, the higher compression and less blow-by into the valve cover, less mess. Add some bronze guides to the setup (if tested to be needed), and you have a nice tight seal in the combustion chamber on that end. If the seals and guides are bad, you got all theat compression seeping into the valve cover, and oil shooting out of the pcv and oil inlet. Make it all tight.

A good 5 angle with an ACCURATE lapping by a good shop (or yourself if know how) will keep compression high, and the rings are the only thing next. See if you can get some perfect circle performance rings, maybe someone makes performance rings for the 200, not sure. You can blow a hole in a ring (as I did) and the compressed air just trickles down the piston to the pan. Under 50 psi on a cylinder dont make it run too good.

Port that mofo, and IMO a better flowing exhaust log would probably help flow=rpms beyond 5500. You can also have it heavily ported, youll get the same results. More spool quicker too, if the exhaust ports of the head and the log ports match or exceed size, the turbo is driven more, and quicker response.

I forgot what exhaust you have on it, and its hard to read through 6 pages to figure it out, but a bigger downpipe and full through exhaust would also get the rpms beyond where you dropped off.

I say (IMO) 2bbl conversion.

Whatever I said that was already here, just forget that I wrote it. Not a big deal...

 

[Linc's 200]

1 ) Yeah, Ive been reading the whole tread along the way, but I forget details along the way. Its hard to review 6 pages to find out what I forgot. Just trying to help.

2 ) what youve done with a "weaker" (not as an insult, as a realistic statement) motor is, well, freakin awesome! I was reeally hoping that motor would have gotten into the 12's, but looking like shooting a dead horse.

3 ) duration being the length of time in reference to 360 degrees that the valve is open. They all are referenced at .050, which is the least important aspect of the cams specs.

4 ) Its how much the valve is opened (lift) and how long its opened (duration) thats the most important aspect of a cams performance.

5 ) A good 5 angle valve job

6 ) Port that mofo,

7 )and IMO a better flowing exhaust log would probably help flow=rpms beyond 5500.

8 ) I forgot what exhaust you have on it, and its hard to read through 6 pages to figure it out, but a bigger downpipe and full through exhaust would also get the rpms beyond where you dropped off.

Hey man, I APPRECIATE greatly all the thoughts and contributions made to this thrread!

I think folks reading it get as much out of your posts as mine!

1 ) I know, it is long. I tried reading through the whole thing the other night and quit after an hour!!
I'll start a new one with the new engine combo.

2 ) Thanks! With a transbrake and a 1.80 60 foot time, that would have been a 12 second run on an old, worn out high mileage 200 six.

3 ) I disagree - I think duration at .050" lift is the most important aspect when comparing cams.

4 ) The 200 head is done by .400" lift, so going farther won't help.
I selected from current offerings - this still has to stay somewhat on a "BUDGET" so a custom cam is out of the picture.

I also selected the 214/214 cam to help with low end torque. I'll let the turbo make the HP for me.

5 ) I don't think that's possible........Look at how close the seat is to the wall of the port. That isn't going to work.

6 ) I PLAN TO!
At least do a good clean up job, try some tried-and-true methods.

7 ) I'm thinking tubular stainless turbo header - that should help a bunch! The log has ports the size of my thumb!!

8 ) Straight 3" open downpipe the whole way, baby!! (see page 1 ) Good for 800 HP!!

 

[Anonymous]

you say yur not going to switch gears...too much hassle and $$, how bout bigger tires ( if they will fit). Maybe you could borrow some for a run and see how it does?

 

[Funky Cricket]

i can't find an oil pump for the 200 with the online retialers. i found a couple 240/300 pumps.
I was working for Melling at a machine shop at the time, and ordered from the melling catalog (along with my cam and lifters) but they may not make those parts anymore so they may not be advertised. You may have to call melling. the price was super cheap for me, so I bet retial won't be bad on the pump if they can locate one.

 

[80Stang]

Melling M65B was the pump that came with two rebuild kits from Northern Auto Parts.

 

[Stubby]

Well Linc,
Have you decided which path you are going to take with project turbo?

You never realy said if the smoke was there after the piston swap or if it got progressively worse. I feel most of the smoke is probably from the rings. The crankcase pressure could be from the rings and guides.

If crankcase ventalation is an issue with a turbo. You might benefit from a catch tank with baffles and a breather. Kinda like the tank on a dry sump system.

 

[Anonymous]

I wasn't getting any oil "wetness" around the breather cap (cheap cap with holes around the perimeter underneath and foam inside) and blowby doesn't seem bad.

I haven't touched the car yet.