All Small Six "Built" 250 Dyno results

This relates to all small sixes

mad_science

Well-known member
Just ran my 250-powered Ranchero in Lemons, but on Friday we had time to get it dyno-ed.

Figured it could be a useful benchmark for what you get from a build.

The specs:
  • 250 D5DE block, standard bore
  • 255 V8 pistons
  • D3 Head opened up for 2V conversion, decked level but not milled down. Combustion chambers measure 62cc.
  • Clay smith 274/274 108 LSA cam
  • ^^^Based on my calculations this gives a static CR of 9.58:1 and a dynamic CR of 8.47:1
  • Holley Sniper 2300 TBI EFI system kinda sorta tuned, but far from completely dialed in
  • eBay HEI distributor, plugs gapped like 35-40thou
  • Long tube headers running through dual 2.5" exhausts + glass packs
  • Toploader 4 speed, 3.55:1 8" diff
  • 205-50-R15 Falken Azenis tires on aluminum wheels

Results, at the wheels:
140hp @ 5000
175lbft @ 2600-2700

(see attached)

At 10% drivetrain loss, that's 156 crank
15% --> 164 crank
20% --> 175 crank

It makes sense in a way because the Sniper is rated to support 300-350hp and at max RPM we were running the injectors at about 50% duty cycle.

Honestly it's more than I thought we'd get but also basically on par with a mediocre V8.
 

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Thanks for sharing!
And especially thank you for info on your DCR. May I ask what gas are you running and at what engine temperature?
 
One more question:

Whats your rocker ratio?
 
nice round body (my dream is 1 in SCCA livery). Like the 8 (or 8,8) rear too.
Many of us go w/the HSC pistons, ARP rod bolts, DSII ignit rather than hei dizzy, late log head and (I think) ~50 cc chambers.
However I like the results you've gotten.

Thnx so much for your 2 threads ! Keep on chooglin~
 
Opinions are like sit me down orificas, so excuse mine and apply a pinch of salt.

I'm a trained Laboratory Technician.

From my reading with Experimental data, I'm satisfied with the set loss for given situations formula pioneered by GM Powertrain engineers in 1972, a nominal
1.14 to 1.31 factor loss depending on
1.Air Con,
2. air cleaner type,
3. hood heat ( Ram Air, or enclosed, or close coupled Corvette style without good air)
4. headers,
5. air pump
6 power steering
7. Viscous fan clutch engagement
8. air con clutch losses.

That lot is an imputed set SAE Gross to SAE Net engine HP/lb-ft loss, depending on each of those 8 items.

I'm happy with the Hale and Moroso computation David Vizard used in the Modifying A series Engines book. He famously stated HP loss is not a set amount through the power curve.

The collective formula Hale used endorses the American and Australian experience with against SAE Net HP and Mustang Chassis dynomometers and Standing 1/ 4 mile plots. That allows SAE Net to be calculation against chassis dyno HP and lb-ft figures.

If you tune into the Richard Holdener channel and his live Feeds, I am really satisfied with Richard Holdener explanations on chassis to engine dyno losses, but it's important to know what he is and isn't saying when he says there is no set up loss on a Chassis to engine dyno reading.

So 140 Rear Wheel HP is 177.1 SAE Net HP, and 175 rear wheel lb-ft is 220 lb-ft SAE Net torque using my 45 years of combined info from Engineering sources, for a manual stick, rear drive axle and 205 section tire case like yours, the drive train loss is 1.264 based on experimental data. If it was a C4 auto with 2350 rpm stall, it would be 1.484. Thats an estimate based on using a system Chevy Off Road and Engines in Australia used for it's engine HP ratings. They used cutting edge inputs from the guys above for years

Hope that gives you some insight into the positive work you've done. Once you control oil splash and substandard, de- contented, sub par metal compromises made on the 250 engine, you might be able to keep it all together in your awesome race car.

I'm a Bryan WoodyWood devotee, and really like your work, Mad Science. The Clydesdale your using has a great reputation, but not as a race engine. Hence your 250 experience has note been a reliable one, but IMHO, that's not your fault, it's an oil drain back and con rod and crank walk problem. The Blocks aren't strong on these tall deck thin wall engines either, not the US ones, anyway. Some are great, others break. A variablity in outcome is a base Quality issue, not a sports modification issue. Ak Miller in 1970, explained the 30% less metal short cuts Ford was forced to take. An average core thickness of the cylinder heads had gone down to 187 thou in 1969 from 243 thou in 1962s 144/170 engines. So be careful out there with your budget.
 
that an endorsement for the 300, X?

Can one be used ina Chero @ Lemons? I think not...
a 260?, 144, 170, 200, agreed these 4, no? I thought the 250 was 'out' (oh, of course U can 'sneak' it in). Then the 300 could sneak too?
 
Mad Science and others here. Just my opinion.

The Big Six 300 awaited till 1994 to get great pistons. It never got degraded crank and engine castings. 65 to 93 Fords and the 240 have poor quality pistons compared to the better SBF and Big Block pistons. Conrods are generally good. Fit for purpose with a safety factor. Ford over engineered most things on the Big Six, except pistons. Lots of people will vouch for how great the Big Six is. I can vouch for how strong the Aussie non cross flow 1 and 2bbl 250 six is. Your Results for the US 200 and 250, are a lot more variable than the Big Six and Oz 250. It doesn't mean the US 250 or 200 is in any way a turkey 🦃.

Have a nice day, Chad. I'm watching the last Holden's racing around Bathurst at Mount Panorama in New South Wales, Australia tomorrow and the next day via Subscription TV here in New Zealand. Ford Australia definitely learned well from GM Australia's Holden division in making six cylinder cars reliable 600 mile endurance race car engines....
 
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Just ran my 250-powered Ranchero in Lemons, but on Friday we had time to get it dyno-ed.

Figured it could be a useful benchmark for what you get from a build.

The specs:
  • 250 D5DE block, standard bore
  • 255 V8 pistons
  • D3 Head opened up for 2V conversion, decked level but not milled down. Combustion chambers measure 62cc.
  • Clay smith 274/274 108 LSA cam
  • ^^^Based on my calculations this gives a static CR of 9.58:1 and a dynamic CR of 8.47:1
  • Holley Sniper 2300 TBI EFI system kinda sorta tuned, but far from completely dialed in
  • eBay HEI distributor, plugs gapped like 35-40thou
  • Long tube headers running through dual 2.5" exhausts + glass packs
  • Toploader 4 speed, 3.55:1 8" diff
  • 205-50-R15 Falken Azenis tires on aluminum wheels

Results, at the wheels:
140hp @ 5000
175lbft @ 2600-2700

(see attached)

At 10% drivetrain loss, that's 156 crank
15% --> 164 crank
20% --> 175 crank

It makes sense in a way because the Sniper is rated to support 300-350hp and at max RPM we were running the injectors at about 50% duty cycle.

Honestly it's more than I thought we'd get but also basically on par with a mediocre V8.
Last time i had my 205 with C4 trans was 139 RWHP on a chasis dyno.
You might want to get me to recurve your HEI so you get more HP. Now your torque was way more than my 205"
 
Lucky X, race seasn just comin in? we're done ;^ ( here in NE usa.
 
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Ak Miller in 1970, explained the 30% less metal short cuts Ford was forced to take.
So is there any difference in the '69 blocks and heads Vs the 70s ones? I forget the exact numbers/years, but I know I've had C9___ blocks and heads in some builds, while my current ones are D2/3.

Can one be used ina Chero @ Lemons? I think not...
a 260?, 144, 170, 200, agreed these 4, no? I thought the 250 was 'out' (oh, of course U can 'sneak' it in). Then the 300 could sneak too?

The Ranchero is so horrible a vehicle I can show up with whatever motor I want and no one will care. The whole $500 budget thing isn't really enforced, so much as meant as a wholistic guideline. They make it up with classing and penalty laps. E.g. show up too cheaty and they put you a class up (A Vs B Vs C) and/or start you at negative XX laps.

Right now my plan for the Ranchero is to buy a super cheaty built V8 shortblock, throw on some Explorer GT40 heads and a cheap intake. The best combination of 250 parts will go in my 12-year-old's 1960 Falcon project car.
 
All 250 in line sixes were downgraded to the new Shell moulded cylinder bores, and the cylinder block and head castings from June 1968 were all downgraded to thiner "thin-wall" castings. There aren't any better ones, C9 or D8, any 1969 to 1980 US 250 block and head is going to be downgraded ultra thin-wall by new foundry Boss, Bill Gay.

The US 250 has many crank changes comparred to the later Oz 250....differing thrust bearing width, and main and rod bearing crush from the normally bomb proof Aussie Log, 2V, and cross flow 250 engines made from 1971-1991. Down here, taxi cab in line sixes were pulled and dropped into Oval track racers, and left stock except for sump mods, a big solid cam with adjustable earlier rocker gear, and three big 2bbl DCOE 45 Weber or Dell Orto DHLA 48 or SU 2 or HIF7 carbs on some sawn up and TIG welded concoction intake. And some home made tubing headers. Pistons, cranks, gearboxes, clutches, normally bullet proof.

The difference is...your Garden US V8 step up option 5.0 engines were always well furnished with parts around everywhere. The corporate edit from HFII effected the SBF too, the 302 is no were near as reliable as an endurance engine as a good A code 4bbl 225 hp 289, but it's always been a cake walk to any 5.0 from a 129 hp 1974 plodder to a 325 HP Fire brand with just Heads, Cam, Intake and exhaust.

Have a good rest. The late Al Turner and Bill Bourke were the North American guys down here who authorised many subtle endurance changes over the US 250 engine. It was 9 times out of 10 a manual gearbox engine in Australian cars, so the thrust bearing from a 3 or 4 speed clutch in bulldust conditions with bad oils and searing out back heat required different crank and con rod bearings, and that thrust bearing change was made for a reason. Repco, a consultant F1 racing company, supplied the bearings and did the development work for Ford's tall deck 200 and 250 engines, while doings Holden and Chrysler's work as well. So the somewhat incestous relationship between the Big Three in Oz, certainly didn't hurt reliability and endurance.

The oil pump and distributor hex drive pin differs too. So do the valve stem diameters and water pumps, and the quoted engine block weights of 407 pounds vary a little over the US 250s.

If I had to use the US 250 tomorrow, I'd rework the stock US crank to take the Aussie main bearings and rod bearings, and do the Mike1157 crank spigot mod, and use the US made, but Aussie spec Silvo-lite Hypereutectic pistons, and non HT989 solid lifters with the right solid lifter cam bearing change. That's a large cost, but as long as the oiling system has a restricted supply to the top end and good drain back and a good sump, with some good E6 1986 Ford Taurus 4 cylinder rods, you should have something bullet proof. People would line up for a solid base like that.


I feel many make excuses for endemic hi rpm, higher load reliability problems, putting down there own efforts they have made. Piston breakage, rod breakage, block cracking head cracking, crank walk, and very bad detonation are typical of this Ford engine. I know based on Ak testimony that the base six cylinder small six engines were was downgraded, and that's why Ak Miller decided to add turbos and automatic gearboxes to every US 250 he modified. I think something with a 4 grand rev limit that makes 185 HP with a draw through TO3B Garrett and a big fat 4bbl 600 CFM vac secondary carb with less than 9 pounds of boost eliminates big cams, big revs, and big oil downs.

How bout a totally stock engine with a 165 dollar BW blow through turbo and a 4000 rpm rev limit making 185 hp? Critical loads of all components should drop, and , as Duet Howlett said to Ak..."Stop all this messing around and try one of these whistles on there"
Here's what 9 pounds of boost does to a 3100 pound 4.1 liter Fuel Injected Falcon

 
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