Cams Infinitum…

[kboldin]

So I’ve read a ton on cams over the past few weeks and the more I’ve read, the more I get numb about all the variations and possibilities there within. I have gathered an all-around street/strip cam is a 264/2642@112* Hydro (for the 200ci).

I understand how many have come to the conclusion that this is a decent compromise between performance/idle quality/power/vacuum etc… Where I start getting off in the woods is the correlation between hydro and solid lifter equivalents, that is, if there are equivalents?

Looking at the different vendors who produce cams, it seems there is a common correlation between hydro’s and solid lifters were the solid lifter cams consistently start with a higher duration among cam grinds offered.

From my reasoning (likely flawed) a solid lifer cam 264/264@112* should be identical to a hydraulic lifter cam 264/264 @112*. The lifters (hydro and solid) should be identical dimensions when the hydraulic lifter is fully “pumped” up.

If that’s true, why is there consistency between manufacturers who start solid lifer cams at such a wider duration? (example: clay smith hydro’s start at 264/264@108*, their solid lifter cam starts at 278/278@108*. Among the manufactures, going to their sites, they are all virtually the same.

Maybe I’m making a mountain out of a mole hill but I’d like to understand the difference and I'd rather use a 264/264@112* solid lifter cam rather than a 264/264@112* hydraulic lifter cam (all things being equal).

 

[falcon fanatic]

Great question and I can't wait to be reminded of the correct answer (I'm sure I knew it once upon a time). That said, I'm pretty sure that it is because with a solid lifter cam you set the valve lash to have a certain amount of space, whereas with a hydraulic cam you set the lash to zero. So really you are losing lift and duration with the solid lifter cam, so you have to add some back to the lobe. On the plus side, you can play with the amount of lash you have to slightly change the performance characteristics. Tighter = more high rpm power, looser = more low end power. Theoretically, at least.


As regards which you'd rather have, remember that a solid lifter cam pretty much needs a valve adjustment every 3000 miles whereas a hydraulic cam can go much longer between adjustments. Hydraulic cams are quieter, too, since they have no lash. Both traits are better for a street car.

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

Solid cams of today's metallurgy DO NOT NEED READJUSTED !!!, I I check my stuff once a year and in the last 3 years needed no change , unless there is a wear issue , why should it , this is not the 60's , the reason a Solid cam shows a larger duration is due to the opening and closing ramp design , a Solid cam will give a more usable rpm range ( starts sooner , ends higher ) , but some do NOT like the noise ( ticking ) I run Solids in all my performance engines , for a all stock combo or if customer insists , its a Hyd , I do like Hyd rollers , But no one makes one ( or solid roller ) for the Falcon 6's ( that I am aware of )

 

[rbohm]

Solid cams of today's metallurgy DO NOT NEED READJUSTED !!!, I I check my stuff once a year and in the last 3 years needed no change , unless there is a wear issue , why should it , this is not the 60's , the reason a Solid cam shows a larger duration is due to the opening and closing ramp design , a Solid cam will give a more usable rpm range ( starts sooner , ends higher ) , but some do NOT like the noise ( ticking ) I run Solids in all my performance engines , for a all stock combo or if customer insists , its a Hyd , I do like Hyd rollers , But no one makes one ( or solid roller ) for the Falcon 6's ( that I am aware of )

^^this^^ solid lifter cams with similar duration numbers have longer opening and closing ramps to soften the shock of opening and closing the valves. those opening and closing ramps have no effect on the net duration of the cam, nor do they have an effect on power.

 

[wsa111]

If you plan to run solid lifters get the lifters with a laser .005" oiling orifice in the center contact area of the lifter.
Solid lifters can open the valves at a faster rate of lift if designed so by the grinder.
Thus the valves will be open more than a juice lifter. The area under the curve is increased.
One might have to run valve springs with more tension to handle the faster rate of lift.
A solid lifter camshaft will put out more power & can be run at a higher rpm.

 

[Gene Fiore]

I think the basic rule of thumb is that if you are looking for all out performance then a solid lifter cam is the way to go. Anything else then a hydraulic cam is your best bet. Just my 2 cents.

 

[kboldin]

I think the answer may come down to one word…. “Performance”

Those who want a more performance oriented cam will start with a higher duration cam than those who seek a compromise between worlds. It sort of makes since that if you want a solid lifer cam, you presumably you know what traits come with it.

Stated another way, why would anybody buy a nosier high maintenance cam if you could buy something quitter with more drivability for the same price and result (performance).

Apologies fellas, it makes more since now. Once I start down the logic path, facts must correlate or the synapses start to misfire.

 

[rbohm]

I think the answer may come down to one word…. “Performance”

Those who want a more performance oriented cam will start with a higher duration cam than those who seek a compromise between worlds. It sort of makes since that if you want a solid lifer cam, you presumably you know what traits come with it.

Stated another way, why would anybody buy a nosier high maintenance cam if you could buy something quitter with more drivability for the same price and result (performance).

Apologies fellas, it makes more since now. Once I start down the logic path, facts must correlate or the synapses start to misfire.

well actually these days hydraulic cams can make the same power as a solid lifter cam of similar specs. the difference is that the solid lifters are going to have a higher rpm range as they dont pump up like hydraulic lifters do at high rpms. that is one thing in the favor of hydraulic cams is that they can act like a poor mans rev limiter.

 

[wsa111]

I think the answer may come down to one word…. “Performance”

Those who want a more performance oriented cam will start with a higher duration cam than those who seek a compromise between worlds. It sort of makes since that if you want a solid lifer cam, you presumably you know what traits come with it.

Stated another way, why would anybody buy a nosier high maintenance cam if you could buy something quitter with more drivability for the same price and result (performance).

Apologies fellas, it makes more since now. Once I start down the logic path, facts must correlate or the synapses start to misfire.

well actually these days hydraulic cams can make the same power as a solid lifter cam of similar specs. the difference is that the solid lifters are going to have a higher rpm range as they dont pump up like hydraulic lifters do at high rpms. that is one thing in the favor of hydraulic cams is that they can act like a poor mans rev limiter.

I disagree you can get a much faster rate of lift with a solid lifter camshaft at the same duration which gives the valves more area under the curve than a juice lifter camshaft.

 

[rbohm]

well actually these days hydraulic cams can make the same power as a solid lifter cam of similar specs. the difference is that the solid lifters are going to have a higher rpm range as they dont pump up like hydraulic lifters do at high rpms. that is one thing in the favor of hydraulic cams is that they can act like a poor mans rev limiter.

I disagree you can get a much faster rate of lift with a solid lifter camshaft at the same duration which gives the valves more area under the curve than a juice lifter camshaft.

part of that is because of the longer take up ramps built into the solid lifter cam to mitigate tappet noise. but i dont disagree with you that solid lifters can have faster lift rates than a hydraulic lifter does. in fact i do agree with you, but again that is because the lifter is already in motion because of the take up ramps, where the hydraulic lifter is still sitting in its bore. that doesnt change the fact that both will make about the same power with similar specs.

 

[wsa111]

No hydraulic can match this.
http://i.imgur.com/PoMuo6k.jpg
However for general street driving a hydraulic camshaft is maintenance free.
The above is a radical short seat duration extremely fast rate of lift camshaft with very high duration @ .050"
Remember on a solid lifter camshaft subtract 10 degrees off that figure @ .050" because of valve lash.
I have this camshaft already installed & degreed in on my 10.5 compression short block on the engine stand.
Waiting for cooler weather for installation.
Yes the valves are .100" longer to handle the higher lift & the use of proper valve springs needed for this camshaft.

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

Hyd Cams are better than those of old , BUT then so are Solid Versions , a solid cam is like a poor mans roller without the extra cost , That being said the Falcon 6's ( other than an aluminum headed version ) are out of breath by 5500 so a Hyd can do most of anything you want , BUT for just a tad more you can have MORE of the cake and eat it ( starts earlier , Finishes Later ) with no issue of lifter pump up to worry about , in other words more vacuum when you need it ( power brakes / Carb signal ) If a customer lets me chose its always a Solid Grind

 

[xctasy]

But no one makes one ( or solid roller ) for the Falcon 6's ( that I am aware of )

Not in America, but in 1990, an American called JR ran one in his Econo rial with a Crow Cams 250 X-flow roller cam. Crow is an Aussie company, who don't offer it anymore, but it is available on request as a "special". Tigue Cams do make it, though. Again, its a special item.

And the Argentinians do too.

With the Aussies, it was formerly made by what was Ivan Tighe in Australia, now Tighe Cams http://www.tighecams.com.au/different.htm. One particular item was for the 200 and 250 X-flow engines. A Mr Jason Stewart runs a Cortina with a 375 hp from just a 256@50 584liit exh. 265@50 607lift 107split cam and one 650 dobule pumper on his 250. See http://www.fordaustraliaforums.com/foru ... y&p=369716

When it had a carb, it did 11.9 at 111 mph at sea level with ease.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnzViPwBXQA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyf9rQMRYXM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic38oRfyJ_8

The roller cam is a brilliant part, and uses 385 Lima roller lifters. For the older non cross flows, a spider or brass button is needed for all 12 tappets, as unless you riffle drill a 0.625" hole the span of 21 inch long hole through the block bulkheads to allow the tie rods to work at the lifts you require, that's all that works. The Argie guys do both set ups, but mostly running a bore bar through the block.

X-flow blocks are different to the non cross flow, they moved the water galliers away to the other side of the engine, but asside from te valve order, the X-flow roller cam fits the non cross flow block, and just needs buttons to secure the roller followers.

 

[FalconSedanDelivery]

 

[xrwagon]

A guy in OZ on Ford Forums just done a roller six build, 250 crossflow, cam was from Tighe in Ipswich, about 1 hour from me, thing sounds mean, he is going to run 3x500 methanol carbs.

AZZA

 

[xrwagon]

Incorrect info on the above cam i gave its a Clive Cam the mech roller in the crossflow, motor is quite epic.

 

[kboldin]

If you plan to run solid lifters get the lifters with a laser .005" oiling orifice in the center contact area of the lifter.
Solid lifters can open the valves at a faster rate of lift if designed so by the grinder.
Thus the valves will be open more than a juice lifter. The area under the curve is increased.
One might have to run valve springs with more tension to handle the faster rate of lift.
A solid lifter camshaft will put out more power & can be run at a higher rpm.

Where are you finding the "laser .005" oiling orifice" lifters? I was looking to do some more research and I am having trouble locating them.

kindly,

kb

 

[kboldin]

For the older non cross flows, a spider or brass button is needed for all 12 tappets, as unless you riffle drill a 0.625" hole the span of 21 inch long hole through the block bulkheads to allow the tie rods to work at the lifts you require, that's all that works. The Argie guys do both set ups, but mostly running a bore bar through the block.

I'd like to see how this is done, I must have spent an hour looking at my block working through the details. I'm not an engineer but I think its a very interesting exercise. Looking at SBF's (the older blocks) and using their link-bar roller design I tried to picture just how that would work. I'd like to see what the Aussie's came up with!

 

[xctasy]

x-flow roller cam conversion basics

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh12 ... 0_1611.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh12 ... 0_1625.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh12 ... 0_1629.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh12 ... 0_1614.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh12 ... 0_1714.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh12 ... 0_1634.jpg

Asside from the roller cam, its all American parts from an 429/460 roller cam kit.

 

[kboldin]

That must be an aussie cross flow block? Our's look a bit different, we don't have that much clearance inside the block on the ourter most lifters. I'll have to take a pic tonight and post it up.