All Small Six Installing and Degreeing Camshaft - 1983 200lm

[Dr_Dan_WWW]

Two questions: 1. How do get the camshaft gear all the way on without hammering and destroying something? I have a new V.I. double roller gears and chain. And a new Howard cam. 2. How do I know how much to advance +/- the timing?

Howard 466-CL280028-08
Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft & Lifter Kit.
Lift: 0.420 in. Duration: 263/263 Degree.
LSA: 108 degree.
RPM Range: 1200-4800.

Background:
You can tell by my questions I have never done this before. But I am determined to learn (with much help). I started this new thread because I was piled on to the end of "No Oil Pressure / YT Full Roller Rockers" and decided that wasn't kind to the OP. So I am starting fresh here.

I have been slowly working on this 1983 Fairmont engine for over a year. It will go in my '66 Bronco, replacing the old worn out 170. This is a mild performance build according to Classic Inlines Tech Articles

Classic Inlines Performance Parts - Hopping up an Inline Six

. This is a E1BE block and E0BE head. Some of goals are CR of 1.92:1. I am shooting for a DCR of 7.52 using the Fel-Pro .050 head gasket, and a quench of 54cc's. (This is info is courtesy of Bubba22349).

The short block is now finished by Mann's Speed Shop here in Kansas City (excellent people, brothers Dana and Eric Mann): cylinders honed .030, pistons .009 out of the cylinder, new pistons, crank polished, connecting rods balanced, etc. Dana Mann took pity on me and installed the crank and pistons for me. Thx Dana.

Bubba22349 has been incredibly helpful in some private conversations. In order to spare him the pain of answering my noob questions, I thought I'd just afflict everyone equally.

 

[drag-200stang]

The cam sprocket is not a press fit, snug only. Find out what is not right, Is the pin to high is the keyway to narrow, is the sprocket bore too small. Light oil on the bore and snout would be good

 

[Dr_Dan_WWW]

Thanks for the reply drag-200stang. So no mallet! I checked the pin - i will look again and try to compress it more. Can the sprocket bore be too small??? That sounds like a bigger problem. Also, I didn't say above, but my photos show about an 1/8th inch slop back n forth in the cam. I didn't say anything because I assume the cam bolt will tighten things up. Am I assuming correctly? (It would help if my cam bolt wasn't worn and won't thread. I need to find another one.)

 

[drag-200stang]

We went through this not too long ago and that time it was the keyway, needed carefull filing and I think that the pin was a too high.

 

[drag-200stang]

It is OK to use the bolt to pull it on but if it takes much force over the interference bolt fit, stop. The ford bolt is an interference fit, maybe a standard bolt to pull it on would work better. You may have to take it off a few times to degree it in. Of course anything could be wrong.

 

[drag-200stang]

The cam will slide back, there is nothing to stop it but the cam block cup plug, so pulling it on is the easiest way.

 

[Dr_Dan_WWW]

I got the gear to snug up. It just took some serious fist. I just leveraged and held the cam in place with a short piece of 1x2 pine. Of course I will be taking it off again. Now the cam bolt: "interference?" What's that mean? I tried my other cam bolt and neither one wants to thread. I can get a head bolt and a normal bolt to thread, but not the cam bolt(s). What do I do about threading on the Ford interference cam bolt? I sure do not want to booger up the camshaft threads. Do I need a never-used new cam bolt?

 

[100_2023]

*

 

[Dr_Dan_WWW]

super4ford - Ha! The ring is shiny because it's brand new from Vintage Inlines. Bolts: I could have em wrong. I have two thrust plates - a 74 and the 83, and I think they both match. I didn't take enough photos when I disassembled. Classic mistake. But in my collection of disassemble bolts I don't see any thin head bolts. I'll double check. If anyone has a photo of thin head bolts, that'd help. thx

 

[Dr_Dan_WWW]

I found a photo of the thin head retaining plate bolts. Yes, they do appear to be thinner than mine.

 

[Dr_Dan_WWW]

I changed out the bolts. I found some slightly flatter heads but they are longer and go the full distance of the threaded hole - at least on the top one I can see. These new bolts are not lock washered. One has a B on the top, the other has the F, but they seem the same. The new ones seem a little beat up, which tells me they could have been external to the engine rather than internal. But that's speculation. Here's the new bolts...

 

[drag-200stang]

Those retainer bolts look right to me for a 200. ford used interference bolt to hold the cam on so that it would stay tight. Just use a grade 8 bolt that is long enough to give full thread engagement but not so long as to bottom out and use medium loctite under 5000 rpm and high strength over, after you degree the cam.

 

[drag-200stang]

It is imperative that you do not use too long of bolts and bottom out, consider that the bolt will stretch some when tight. One of the water pump bolt holes will push in the cylinder into the piston if too long. Not sure if that one bolt will distort the lifter bore if a too long of bolt is used, Blocks are not as strong as you may think.

 

[bubba22349]

I don't think the Camshaft retainer plate bolts are the right ones the many Original Ford engine's that I have disassembled of all sizes that I have seen are a thinner head thickness with 6 notches in them and they also don't use any washer under them. These special bolts are called an AA Place Bolt here is a recent post by site member "sixseventwo4d" describing their history, use, and showing them. https://www.fordsix.com/threads/new-dumb-question.83537/#post-665116

 

[Dr_Dan_WWW]

Hmm. I may need to find those special bolts Bubba. I don't have anything with that thin of a head, no washer. But - this said, I don't think I bottomed out. Thank you all for the input. I really appreciate the help.

On to the advance question. It's a "when and how" question. I believe it is measured against the cam specs on the cam card, right? echo1955's video just says he knows to advance 4 degrees. How'd he know that?

 

[Dr_Dan_WWW]

Wait a sec! I just followed the AA bolt fordsix.com link. I have three of those kind of bolts. Checking.

 

[pmuller9]

On to the advance question. It's a "when and how" question. I believe it is measured against the cam specs on the cam card, right? echo1955's video just says he knows to advance 4 degrees. How'd he know that?

The Howards 466-CL280028-08 cam has a Lobe Separation Angle (LSA) of 108 degrees.
It will be 4 degrees advanced when the intake lobe center is at 104 degrees ATDC.

If you look at the cam card it should show the .050" duration opening and closing timing events for both the intake and exhaust when the intake lobe center is at 104 degrees ATDC.

The intake will open at .5 degrees BTDC and close at 28.5 degrees ABDC.
The exhaust will open at 36.5 degrees BBDC and close 7.5 degrees BTDC.

Those are the points you will checking when using your degree wheel to see if the intake lobe center is at 104 degrees ATDC

Can you post a picture of the cam card?

 

[Dr_Dan_WWW]

The AA bolts are 9/16". The retaining plate takes 1/2". Plus the AA bolts are rusty and have blue paint on them. I still need to find the correct bolts.

Advance.
Here's the card:



Apparently, my first question isn't "how to degree my cam" but rather "how to read a cam card." pmuller9 that was very clear. Thanks. Therefore, it appears that I should advance 4 degrees. And when I degree the cam it should come it at 104. Am I thinking correctly?

 

[drag-200stang]

I don't think the Camshaft retainer bolts are the right ones the many Original Ford engine's that I have disassembled of all sizes have seen a thinner head thickness with 6 notches in them and they also don't use any washer under them. These special bolts are called an AA Place Bolt here is a recent post by site member "sixseventwo4d" describing their history, use, and showing them. https://www.fordsix.com/threads/new-dumb-question.83537/#post-665116

Bubba that may be for the big six and ford may have used the place bolts on some small six, but I looked at a virgin C8 and they are like the first ones Dan used first showed. Of course, pics are hard to measure. The bolts have a captured slot lock washer and measured 9/16'' from washer to end of bolt threaded end. Just make sure there is clearance to the sprocket no matter what bolt you use especially with an aftermarket sprocket.

 

[pmuller9]

Advance.
Here's the card:

View attachment 11201

Apparently, my first question isn't "how to degree my cam" but rather "how to read a cam card." pmuller9 that was very clear. Thanks. Therefore, it appears that I should advance 4 degrees. And when I degree the cam it should come it at 104. Am I thinking correctly?

Yes
If you follow the cam card and the timing points shown by the degree wheel are the same as the ones on the right side of the card, the intake lobe center will be at 104 and the cam will be 4 degrees advanced.

Do you have a degree wheel and a dial indicator with a magnetic base?