All Small Six Installing and Degreeing Camshaft - 1983 200lm
- Thread starter Dr_Dan_WWW
- Start date
This relates to all small sixes
Dr. Dan, you could also use some Blue or red Locktite on the Cam Retainer bolts if you wanted to.
Dan so you can sleep better, you can look at the pic on the first page of the no oil pressure thread, it shows the bolts clearly.
Advance: Yes I bought a degree wheel and the magnetic dial indicator. I was lazy and bought an Amazon piston stop. Ok I believe I can attempt to degree the cam as soon as I resolve this thrust plate bolt mystery.
Back to bolts.
I have looked through my '74 and '83 bolts. The two engines have nearly the same set of miscellaneous engine bolts, with no AA Place bolts in 1/2". The 1983 engine has the following possible retaining plate bolts:
All are 1/2" drive, course; all have attached washer
"R" 5/8" - has an "R" on the head; thin washer
"f" 3/4" - has the stylized "f" shape on the head; thin washer
"four dots and a T" 1" - has dots and T; thick washer
When I zoomed in on Roy Permenter's old youtube video (see previous photo), the thrust plate bolts are not AA Place bolts. And if I use some imagination, I think there may be an "R" on the top of the bolt. That would match drag200stang's info. My "R" bolt is 5/8" including the thin split washer. BUT - Roy's bolts do not have the lip around the top edge of the bolts. The R bolt is what I used to begin with. They cleared the gear even with the thick head. I haven't torqued the cam bolt down yet. The R bolts seem a bit short at only 5/8ths. As a default, I will use the R bolt with some thread locker.
Back to bolts.
I have looked through my '74 and '83 bolts. The two engines have nearly the same set of miscellaneous engine bolts, with no AA Place bolts in 1/2". The 1983 engine has the following possible retaining plate bolts:
All are 1/2" drive, course; all have attached washer
"R" 5/8" - has an "R" on the head; thin washer
"f" 3/4" - has the stylized "f" shape on the head; thin washer
"four dots and a T" 1" - has dots and T; thick washer
When I zoomed in on Roy Permenter's old youtube video (see previous photo), the thrust plate bolts are not AA Place bolts. And if I use some imagination, I think there may be an "R" on the top of the bolt. That would match drag200stang's info. My "R" bolt is 5/8" including the thin split washer. BUT - Roy's bolts do not have the lip around the top edge of the bolts. The R bolt is what I used to begin with. They cleared the gear even with the thick head. I haven't torqued the cam bolt down yet. The R bolts seem a bit short at only 5/8ths. As a default, I will use the R bolt with some thread locker.
Oh man! I saw that earlier this week and then forgot about it. Okay that settles it. Thanks.
First - make sure the hole and threads are clean. use a bottoming tap or arp thread cleaning tap.
Second- screw a flanged head bolt in by itself and see how big the space is between the block and the underside of the bolt head. As long as this is less that cam gear thickness you are ok. This will determine if the bolt is too long.
Third- check the distance from the bolt head and the cam gear. as long as it clears you are OK.
Fourth - A grade 8 bolt class 2A thread engagement should work. If the head of bolt is to thick, put in a lathe and cut down or file. I do not think that the clearance is that tight but not sure. Bolts and nuts are made with different thread engagement specs.
www.mcmaster.com
Of course if you can get the ford bolts use them. Don't over think this. Put blue Loctite on the bolts if you care to. Red loctite with cast iron I am not sure of.
Second- screw a flanged head bolt in by itself and see how big the space is between the block and the underside of the bolt head. As long as this is less that cam gear thickness you are ok. This will determine if the bolt is too long.
Third- check the distance from the bolt head and the cam gear. as long as it clears you are OK.
Fourth - A grade 8 bolt class 2A thread engagement should work. If the head of bolt is to thick, put in a lathe and cut down or file. I do not think that the clearance is that tight but not sure. Bolts and nuts are made with different thread engagement specs.
ANSI Internal and External Thread Classes
Thread classes are specified to designate the amount of tolerance allowance and installation fit desired.
www.engineersedge.com
McMaster-Carr
McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.
Cam bolt:
Here's a photo of the cam gear on the camshaft. It is not snugged on all the way up flush. Does it matter? If it is supposed to be flush then I believe the thrust plate bolts will hit the gear. Also, my cam bearings are looking real good. They are sitting right inside the journals. Keep in mind my gears and chain are new double rollers. Not stock. So that could make a difference in spacing. Flush or no flush? Should I torque the bolt and see what happens? OR will the gear eventually slip/slide back and forth while the engine runs?
Here's a photo of the cam gear on the camshaft. It is not snugged on all the way up flush. Does it matter? If it is supposed to be flush then I believe the thrust plate bolts will hit the gear. Also, my cam bearings are looking real good. They are sitting right inside the journals. Keep in mind my gears and chain are new double rollers. Not stock. So that could make a difference in spacing. Flush or no flush? Should I torque the bolt and see what happens? OR will the gear eventually slip/slide back and forth while the engine runs?
What is important is that the sprocket is tight to the cam spacer, not retainer, and there is .002 -.007 end play when bolt is tight.
What is important on the cam bearings is each one is different and that they are in the correct order and that all of the oil ports are aligned along with being centered on the journals.
I try to explain things with less words, if it does not make sense, just ask.
What is important on the cam bearings is each one is different and that they are in the correct order and that all of the oil ports are aligned along with being centered on the journals.
I try to explain things with less words, if it does not make sense, just ask.
Last edited:
"Align the oil ports with the journal oil grooves" - that is good info. I believe I am there.
drag-200, by "cam spacer" you mean the beveled cam ring? bevel is hidden)
drag-200, by "cam spacer" you mean the beveled cam ring? bevel is hidden)
After checking to see that the gear is up against the camshaft and spacer, I torqued the cam bolt to 45 ft lbs. Then I turned the engine a few times and checked for any play and watched n listened for anything hitting. The big thrust plate bolts ("R" bolts) did not appear to move any closer. There's probably about a 1/16th clearance between gear and bolt heads. I used the new provided Vintage Inline washer/spacer behind the cam bolt up against the gear. It is slightly thicker than the original, which gives me a little concern because it means there's less cam bolt thread inside the cam.
Here's a photo of the gear up against cam...
Note in the photo the cam gear dot aligned with "+4" on the crank gear. Unless someone sees something of concern here, I am ready to attach the degree wheel.
Here's a photo of the gear up against cam...
Note in the photo the cam gear dot aligned with "+4" on the crank gear. Unless someone sees something of concern here, I am ready to attach the degree wheel.
Yes ring is slang, it is a spacer in the books. Do not confuse cam spacer with the two hole cam thrust retainer plate. The end play must be min .002'' to max of .007'' Position the dial indicator plunger on the end of the cam bolt or washer where flat and push the cam back and forth, if it is not within the above spec. it must be fixed.
The bolt could be short because you are not using stock parts, just get a longer grade 8 bolt if needed, that is what hot-rodding is about.
Mr. Muller is the best at explaining cam degreeing
The bolt could be short because you are not using stock parts, just get a longer grade 8 bolt if needed, that is what hot-rodding is about.
Mr. Muller is the best at explaining cam degreeing
Last edited:
Thanks good. The cam no longer moves after torquing down the cam bolt at 45ftlbs and blue threaddlocker. I feel good about the position of the bearings and journals. The cam bolt is probably shorter than stock. Drag-200stang and others what shop manual do you have use? I don't have one. For torque specs I seem to remember a list somewhere - classic lines, or The Handbook.
I have a Chilton's car and truck 73-80 and I cross check it with the specs on the classic inlines tech.
The cam no longer moves is not the way it is done, you need to check the end play as I posted, it is not hard.
Do not think that the cam timing will be ok, it may or may not, must be checked. The locker was to do after cam was degreed.
The cam no longer moves is not the way it is done, you need to check the end play as I posted, it is not hard.
Do not think that the cam timing will be ok, it may or may not, must be checked. The locker was to do after cam was degreed.
I feel that I need to expand on this, what I meant was there is oil ports in the block, and they need to line up with the hole or slot hole in the cam bearing, I do not remember 1,2, and 3 being hard to figure out but 4, people some time miss that there is two oil ports that need to line up one down and one up for rocker shaft oiling.
As "drag-200stang" previously posted, you need to check the cam endplay using your dial indicator.
Set the dial indicator straight out from the cam bolt you torqued to 45 ft lbs.
Push the cam gear into the block.
Set the dial indicator to zero.
Pull the cam gear out from the block.
The reading on the dial indicator will be the end play.
Set the dial indicator straight out from the cam bolt you torqued to 45 ft lbs.
Push the cam gear into the block.
Set the dial indicator to zero.
Pull the cam gear out from the block.
The reading on the dial indicator will be the end play.
Last edited:
Okay that's understandable. I was having a hard time figuring it out. I mean, I get that the cam cannot move back and forth. I will check it tomorrow. Thanks.
You set the timing gears at 4 degrees advanced.
If the cam was already indexed at 4 degrees advanced when it was made, then the cam could be 8 degrees advanced.
You will need to check the cam timing for sure.
For too little of a play one could shim under the cam thrust retainer plate I guess.As "drag-200stang" previously posted, you need to check the cam endplay using your dial indicator.
Set the dial indicator straight out from the cam bolt you torqued to 45 ft lbs.
Push the cam gear into the block.
Set the dial indicator to zero.
Pull the cam gear out from the block.
The reading on the dial indicator will be the end play.
How would too much play be corrected?
That would not work, It is the relationship between the thickness of the cam sprocket ''spacer'' and the thickness of the two holed thrust plate.
If the end play is to tight which does not happen much at all , then the spacer is too thin and a thicker spacer would fix that or the two holed cam thrust plate is not to spec and too thick.. If the end play is too much it would usually be because the thrust plate, cam, or sprocket are worn and new parts usually fix that. If that does not fix it then the cam spacer can be machined thinner or get a thinner spacer assuming that the thrust plate is within spec.
Similar threads
All Small Six
Camshaft Degree Troubleshooting Help
