All Small Six Can you stack crank pulley sheaves?

[ags290]

Howdy,

It has been a while since I have posted anything, but I have been lurking for a while. A couple of years ago I started assembling parts for an A/C install on our early 1965 Mustang. It is a 170 with factory power steering car and the Eaton style pump. I was planning on doing a dealer installed A/C setup. I looked at the assembly manual and sorted through my boxes of parts and thought I was good to go.

I got to the point of mounting the compressor when I realized I had a problem. In the assembly manual it shows with power steering that the setup should use 3 belts total. The inner belt routes: crankshaft, water pump, power steering pump. The outer belt routes crankshaft, water pump, A/C compressor on the outer groove of the clutch pulley. Then the generator is driven by a belt from the inner groove of the A/C clutch pulley.

I thought I was in the clear because I already had 2 belts running from the crank and the water pump. The inner one went to the generator and the outer one went to the power steering pump. Once I got the compressor mounted and started trying to install the three belts I found my problem. I need a double sheave pulley on the crankshaft in addition to the inner pulley on the balancer. I currently have one belt on the single pulley balancer and an add on single sheave pulley for the power steering.

In the assembly manual it is listed as part number C20E-6A312-B. As it sits right now the power steering pulley, the A/C compressor clutch pulley inner groove and the water pump and crank shaft outer pulley's all line up together. I have looked at EBay, NPD and Kentucky Mustang and only have been able to find a single groove sheave pulley by ACP. The ACP part number is FM-EP006. In the application guide it says it fists most 200 from 62-67 with power steering or air conditioning but not both. NPD's catalog shows it compatible with a 170 as well.

So here is the question: Does anyone know where to get the correct two groove add on sheave pulley? And if not, can you stack two of the single groove sheave pulleys together safely?

As always, Thanks in advance for the help!

Kevin
ags290

 

[bubba22349]

Hi Kevin, yes you are right you will need to find a double sheave crankshaft Dampner pulley both 170 or the 200 are the same (they are more common on the later 1967 up models that came with power steering and or also with factory AC), and will have the same 3 bolt mounting for severial years but later models can be 4 bolt. If you find one of them then you can use your single sheave add on pulley with it to get your needed three sheaves. There were also some factory three sheave crankshaft pulleys made too. Best of luck on your install.

 

[ags290]

Thanks Bubba! I was hoping you would reply. You have helped me more times than you know. I have one more question. Should the existing 2 grove water pump pulley I have work? Will I need to shim it out from the face of the water pump shaft for it to work or do I need to find something else?

 

[bubba22349]

I think it should work fine if it's lineing up with your other pulleys now. There was a longer water pump made for the 200's about mid 1974 and newer engines. If you use all the early style short water pump pulley's and there matching crankshaft pulleys then it should all match up. Best of luck

 

[ags290]

I have a couple of spare engines that I was gifted by guys doing V-8 swaps and found that one of them did have a 2 sheave dampener and a 2 sheave add on for a total of 4 grooves. The dampener is junk, because even with my old eyes, I can see the rubber "pooching" out on one side. But the add on sheave is the correct diameter and 3 bolt mount so it should get my correct belt spacing on the crank. Of course the matching water pump and pulley is not on the spare engine so here we go again.

The current water pump pulley lines up with my original crank pulley and add on single sheave. When I remove the single sheave from the dampener and replace it with the double sheave I'm afraid that the outer most groove from it will not line up with the water pump pulley, It will be forward of it . Currently the two grooves on the crank pulley line up with the two grooves on the water pump pulley. The belt on inner groove goes to the water pump and generator and the outer groove goes to the water pump and power steering pump.

I know that during this time period Ford used several different pulley combinations. Does anyone have a list of part numbers that "work" with one another? Does anyone know how much longer the later style water pump is compared to the short style? Is there an adapter made to space the pulley out from the face of the impeller shaft? Will V-8 pulleys mount to the 6 water pump?

I hate to be so full of questions but I am trying to get my parts together so we can make a second attempt this weekend.

Kevin

 

[65coupei6]

If you have a short water pump and need to move the pulley forward you can buy a shim kit from Moroso.

 

[bubba22349]

The two grove bolt on Dampner shelve if it's a three bolt used on a 1961 170 up to end of 170 production and the early 1963 1/2 to early production 1975 200 should all be space perfectly the same. I would bolt it up and try it out the water pump pulley might not need to be changed the early first style water pumps from 1960 to early 1975 were 4 inches long. All front dress items bolt on engine brackets, pulley's, water pumps, Dampners from those years of 1960 to late production models of 1975 in mid April are the same spacing and will all be interchangeable.

The late longer 200 water pumps started being installed after on or about April 18, 1975 to end of 200 production in 1983 they are 1/2 inch longer. In the link below it has some pictures of the two pumps side by side with a tape measure, as well as some other info on pulley's and Dampners that were used that might be of help in a post by Xtascy 6th down from the top. Somewhere on this site I also did a post or two on the differances in water pumps as it related to our US engines, however I haven't found them back as of now. By the way you can also get your old 2 shelve engine Dampner rebuilt or exchanged if you wanted at the Damper Doctor in Redding Calif. https://damperdoctor.co
Check out your spare engines block casting numbers and date code if you want to verafy it's year.

Can't help you on the pulley numbers but if I remember correctly site member "Chad" had did a lot of research for his Bronco build project and had assembled a list of some pulley part numbers. I do also think the V8 pulley's can also fit I know the water pump flanges will have the same bolt spacing and pilot hole center at least on some engine sizes that I tried in the past from my collection of old Ford parts. Best of luck

Ford 200 Water Pump Lengths

Harmonic Balancer

Ok whats the best available? For supercharging a 200

fordsix.com

 

[ags290]

As always, Thank You Again Bubba!

 

[chad]

2 groove H2 Pump pulleys (and more at)
http://www.mustangtek.com/pulley/Pulley.html
here's some numbers:
C9ZZ-8509-A .. Double Sheave Water Pump Pulley - 5 29/32" O.D. / Marked: C9ZE-A or B
D1OE-8509-AA
D1OE-AA 71 250 Torino w/AC
71 250 Mustang w/AC
71-72 250 Maverick w/AC
72 250 Mustang w/AC 2 Grooves
6 7/16" dia
D1OZ-8509-B
D2OE-BA 72 250 Torino Integral/AC 2 Grooves
6 7/16" dia
D2OZ-8509-B
D0OE-8509-J Torino Water Pump pulley 2 Grooves
C9ZE-A
C9ZE-B 69 250 Fairlane/Torino w/AC
69 250 Mustang w/AC
70 250 Torino w/AC
70 250 Maverick w/AC 2 grooves
5 29/32" diameter
C9ZZ-8509-A

D1OE-8509-AA D1OE-AA	71 250 Torino w/AC 71 250 Mustang w/AC 71-72 250 Maverick w/AC 72 250 Mustang w/AC	2 Grooves 6 7/16" dia D1OZ-8509-B
D2OE-BA	72 250 Torino Integral/AC	2 Grooves 6 7/16" dia D2OZ-8509-B
D0OE-8509-J	Torino Water Pump pulley	2 Grooves
C9ZE-A C9ZE-B	69 250 Fairlane/Torino w/AC 69 250 Mustang w/AC 70 250 Torino w/AC 70 250 Maverick w/AC	2 grooves 5 29/32" diameter C9ZZ-8509-A
C5DE-8509-A	65 200 Fairlane w/AC 65 200 Fairlane XC(w/PS & auto/trans) 65 200 Mustang AC (w_or-wo/PS) 65 170 200 Falcon AC (w_or-wo/PS) 66 200 Fairlane Integral/AC-w_or_wo/TE 66 200 Fairlane HangOn/AC-dir. wo/TE 66 200 Mustang HangOn/AC w_or-wo/TE 66 170 200 Falcon Integral/AC w_or_wo/TE w_or_wo/PS 66 170 200 Falcon HangOn/AC wo/TE 67 200 Fairlane AC w_or_wo/TE 67 200 Mustang AC w_or_wo/TE 67 170 200 Falcon AC w_or_wo/TE w_or_wo/PS	2 grooves 5.00" diameter C5DZ-8509-A
C4ZE-8509-A	64 Mustang 170-200 6-cyl wo/AC w/PS 65 Mustang 170 w/PS(exc w/AC) 65 170 Falcon PS(exc/AC) 66 200 Fairlane (PS exc/AC-fact,dir.), 53·55amp wo/TE 66 200 Fairlane std.(PS exc/AC), 53·55amp, Power_fan, w/TE 66 Mustang 200 std.(exc w/AC), (PS-factory)-XC w/TE 66 Mustang 200 w/PS-factory, dir. wo/TE 66 170 200 Falcon PS-wo/AC wo/TE 66 170 200 Falcon std,(PS exc/AC), XC w/TE 67 200 Fairlane Std., PS, XC, Power_fan, 53amp, w/TE before_14-nov-66 67 200 Fairlane (exc/AT_w/Imco or AC)-w/TE from_14-nov-66 67 200 Fairlane PS, (53·55amp wo/PS)-wo/TE 67 200 Mustang PS wo/TE 67 200 Mustang Std.(exc/AC),PS, XC-w/TE before_14-nov-66 67 200 Mustang ST(exc/AC) w/TE from_14-nov-66 67 170 200 Falcon PS, (53·55amp wo/PS), wo/TE 67 170 200 Falcon Std, PS, XC, wo/TE before_14-nov-66 67 170 200 Falcon ST(exc/AC) w/TE from_14-nov-66 68 200 Fairlane w/55amp.w/Imco wo/AC, w/std&55amp.w/TE wo/AC 68 200 Mustang wo/AC, w/TE 68 200 Falcon wo/AC, w/TE	2 grooves Diameter : 5.625" Overall depth : 1.85" 3/8" belt groove C4DZ-8509-A

C4GE-8509-K or C4GE-8509-A

65 200 Mustang PS (exc/AC) 65 200 Falcon PS (exc/AC) 68 200 Fairlane w/AC or PF, w/TE or Imco 68 200 Mustang w/AC 68 200 Falcon w/AC 69 200 Mustang w/AC 69 170 200 Falcon w/AC 70 200 Mustang w/AC 70 170 200 Maverick w/AC 70 200 Falcon w/AC 71-72 200 Maverick w/AC

2 grooves 4.98" diameter C5AZ-8509-K

C0DE-8509-A

65 200 Fairlane HangOn/AC (XC-wo/PS) 65 170 Mustang (exc/AC or PS) 65 170 Falcon (exc/AC or PS) 66 200 Fairlane std.(exc/PS,AC,53·55amp)-wo/TE 66 200 Mustang std. (exc.PS, AC) wo/TE 66 170 200 Falcon std.(exc/PS, AC) wo/TE 67 200 Fairlane std.(exc/PS,AC,53·55amp)-wo/TE 67 200 Fairlane AT_w/Imco(exc/AC)-w/TE from_14-nov-66 67 200 Mustang std. (exc.PS, AC) wo/TE 67 200 Mustang AT_w/Imco(exc/AC) from_14-nov-66 w/TE 67 170 200 Falcon std., wo/TE 67 170 200 Falcon AT-w/Imco((exc/AC)- w/TE from14-nov-66 68 200 Fairlane w/std_alt.wo/AC 68 200 Mustang wo/AC w/Imco 68 200 Falcon w/Imco wo/AC, PF w/55anp 69 200 Mustang wo/AC 69 170 200 Falcon wo/AC 70 200 Mustang wo/AC 70 170 Maverick (AT)-wo/AC 70 200 Maverick wo/AC 70 200 Falcon wo/AC 71 200 Maverick wo/AC wo/PS 72 200 Maverick wo/AC

1 groove 5.60" diameter 1.88" overall depth C0DE-8509-A

 

[ags290]

Thanks Chad! This gives me something to work from. I currently have a C4ZE-8509-A on the car which according to your chart above would be correct since it is a 170 with power steering but no A/C.

I am trying to add a cobbled together dealer add on set up. From what I can tell the kit came with an A/C specific water pump pulley C4ZE-8509-B. My guess is that it is a different diameter to spin the water pump a little faster to combat overheating.

 

[ags290]

So I looked a little closer at the power steering pump set up. It has never really looked correct to me. The way the rear brace snakes past the distributor and fuel pump look off. It’s a kind of strange set up with the way the brackets bolt together. I looked at some photos on Google and found another one set up like mine, but I’m still not convinced it is mounted correctly

 

[ags290]

 

[chad]

Thanks Chad!

format did not hold. Its excerpted from the site linked, HTH

 

[ags290]

If you have a short water pump and need to move the pulley forward you can buy a shim kit from Moroso.

How far forward can I safely shim the pulley? I need almost 3/8”

 

[bubba22349]

Something isn't quite right.

 

[chad]

swap stuff around to the front or back of brackets (a lill grind needed?)?
Just the right brackets can make it rather than sheavs (buncha washers at bolt holes?)~

I wanted to do all this w/the motor ona stand but time'n space would not allow~
I figured it would be the most lengthly of all the rest0mod wrk. An oem AC could B the ultimate find in accessories!
I got sno plow, on board air, PS, and Pull Pal welder. A lotta accessories. Not sure the tech archive could assist but there's
some radical frnt dress on there (is it the alloy head w/a turbo or sompin? got idler in there)...

 

[ags290]

So I loosened the power steering pump brackets and then re torqued everything and got the power steering pump to square up to the front of the engine much better.

I measured the water pump shaft flange from the front edge to the block and came up with roughly 4 inches which is right. I picked up a new water pump just to check and it’s the same.

I checked the block that I got the add-on sheave from and it’s a C8 casting. The sheave is a 3 bolt and matches the diameter of the existing single balancer (roughly 6 inches). I have it soaking in evapo-rust right now. If I can find a part number on it I will post it tomorrow.

I know I need a 2 groove 5” water pump pulley that has the smallest offset I can find. The one it calls for is made out of “unobtanium” I guess because the only reply I have had on locating it is from a Nigerian Prince.

I still have a bunch of parts ordered that should be here next week. I am still working on relocating the existing horn to the left fender apron from the right frame rail. I made the harness pictured in the assembly manual and am in the process of making the mounting bracket. So some progress is being made.

I really do appreciate everyone’s help and suggestions.

Kevin

 

[bubba22349]

Can you take some side view pictures showing how all the pulley,are aligned?

 

[chad]

'...pulley that has the smallest offset..."
not sure what that is. We got so many machine shops round here (where they invented them) it aint funny (only 1 may B 2 are automotive). One might "skinnieze" one 4 U? (lathe chuck, boring bar on tool post)

 

[ags290]

Chad I guess I should say thinnest overall depth.