Correct timing / pinking

[Route--66--]

Hi
my 1965 200ci runs fine and seems to have quite adequate power. (totally stock engine)
At higher revs however it starts pinking.
I've retarded the ignition from its standard 12 to about 9-10 degrees btdc.
I use standard unleaded petrol with octane boost additive.
It has an autolite vacuum advance distributor and an autolite 1100 carb without the spark control valve

It doesn't seem to pink at lower revs uphill, seems to just be high revs (can't tell how many revs exactly, no rev counter)

Should I just retard the timing even more? (although I hear that retarding will cause the cylinders to overheat.)
Also hear that different plugs may be the answer (i.e. cooler or hotter??) - can anyone send me a link to the correct plugs to get?

cheers!!

Dizzy;

Carb;

 

[thesameguy]

It's unusual for engine speed to create detonation/pinging/pinking. Usually, detonation is a side effect of load. Are you hearing this noise under heavy throttle, or just cruising at higher engine speeds?

FWIW, I would not rely on "octane boosters." Many of them simply do nothing, and virtually none (if any) of them perform as advertised. You may see a couple extra effective points of octane after using the better ones, but none of them are going to turn crap gas into something useful. You are substantially better off just using the right fuel in the first place.

If you are sure what you're hearing is detonation (and I'm not), maybe try filling up an empty tank with good/high octane gas and see if the nature of the problem changes.

 

[rbohm]

8) if your engine is pinging under load, and higher octane does help, then going two steps colder on the plugs might help. also make sure that your engine isnt running lean at higher rpms as that will also cause pinging.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Rte66:

And all. What do your spark plugs look like? I'm with TSG, in that you aren't likely to get ping at higher rpm unless; high speed lean condition, or to much advance at high rpms from too much vacuum advance and/or too much centrifugal advance. In either of those cases you'll likely see peppering and/or glazing on the spark plug porcellin, both indications of high speed excessive heat and/or pre-ignition.

You stated you initial advance settings, but have you verified the amount of centrifugal advance you distributor is getting? Also, your vacuum advance system should be giving max advance at a steady highway cruising speed. It could be too much with the combination of initial, centrifugal and vacuum advance. This is most likely to happen with a mismatch of carb/engine vacuum and distributor type.

Which Autolite 1100 are you using? What year? What engine size. If this is a '68 or '69 200 carb (Non-SCV) it is down on CFM as compared to a stock '65 1100- which could be contributing to a high speed lean condition.

Keep it coming. How about some photos of your spark plugs, after a high speed run.

Adios, David

 

[Route--66--]

Thanks loads for your input guys.

thesameguy: yeh it does only happen at higher revs when I'm giving it some stick, don't hear it when under load or lower revs (although will re-try it to make sure this is true)
With plugs I'm a real noob when it comes to hot or cold (???)
Interesting what you all say about pinking / pinging can be caused by a too-lean mixture at high revs .. didn't know about that.

The octane booster I use is castrol and is a 'lead additive' + octane booster so is probably as good as I'll get in the UK..
Interesting about what you say about filling with higher octane fuel to start with - I will try that next fill up, which should be this week sometime (maybe tonight it the flippin' rain holds off :/ )

I believe the dizzy is from something like 1967 (edit - see foot of this post for more info) .. it does have vacuum and centrifugal advance, and not sure about which model carb it is .. I do have the invoice for it .. don't think it will help with the ID though;

As requested - i do happen to have a pic of the plugs after a run (as below). they have never been the 'biscuit brown' that they are supposed ot be - always either grey, after a run, or black sooty (too rich) after short runs (obv from choke)..
They are in order from cylinder 1 to 6 (left to right) ..

bigger image of plugs here: http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/gg572/Route66uk/plugs12jan11.jpg

Thanks again chaps!!!

EDIT: from another thread Mustang6 said:
..point of clarification- model 1100 vrs 1101 is NOT determined based on SCV or not, 1100 is a smaller sized carb that typically came on 170/200 ci engines, 1101 is same design but a bit larger throttle bore/plate and sized to fit 240/250 engines. Early 1100s and 1101s up to about 1968 have the SCV, 1100s and 1101s from 1968+ typically do not. As mentioned before, the carb and distributor must be matched SCV or matched non-SCV. On your car, you have a non-SCV 1100 carb and a non-SCV distributor so while they are not original to your '65 (the distributor is from a 1970) they are a matched pair and will work correctly.

 

[CZLN6]

HowdyBack:

From the parts # on the distributor it is from a 1970 design. If the foot note is true for your carb it will likely be a '68 or '69 Non-SCV 1100 rated at 150 cfm, prior 1100 for the 200 engine were rated @ 185 cfm. All USA 200s after 1969 went to a Carter YF one barrel. To verify which 1100 carb you have you will need to remove to measure the diameter of the throttle bore and the internal diameter of the venturi throat, of the narrowest inside passage. A '68-'69 1100 will have 1 7/16" and a 1.1" venturi diameter.

It is hard to tell from the spark plug photos, but I' suspecting that your carb is running on the lean side OR You're getting too much advance at steady highway speeds. The darker color on the center plugs is not untypical and likely caused by fuel dispersion short comings of a center mounted carb on a log type manifold.

First steps for you will be to accurately determine which 1100 you have and to verify how much internal advance you distributor is giving. I can't tell from the pictures you've posted, but most vacuum canister of this era have some adjustibility as does the mechanical advance system. Also, I couldn't tell from the photos what brand or heat range your plugs are. There should be a brand name and a number/letter code on the top part. A change to a cooler heat range plug is quick, easy and relatively cheap and easy. What are you gaping your plug at? What coil are you useing with the Petronix Ignitor?

Keep it coming.

Adios, David

 

[Route--66--]

Thanks David

Just been out tonight, filled it with high octane and added the lead additive/octane boost!

It does still pink at high revs when being driven hard.. I have noticed a slight leak in the header gasket too so put some gunk in it while it's still warm and will give it a listen on Saturday.. although am pretty sure that was a completely different noise.

The pinking didn't happen at lower revs under heavy throttle up a hill ..so it is just higher revs ..
Am thinking that your thought about it running a bit lean may be the issue..

I daren't take the carb off just in case the gasket splits ..living in uk means it takes a while for parts to arrive ! ..and I've got to take my niece to her prom in it next Wednesday !!

The plugs are a bit mixed .. I did this deliberately to see which 'worked' the best.. i.e. gave the best colour result!
Plug 5 is a motorcraft ..this one; http://npdlink.com/store/products/T_12405_1-139216-2873.html
Plugs 2 and 4 are Champion RF7YC
Plugs 1 3 and 6 are Campion F7YC (non 'resistor' version of the above?)
Gap.. I put them at about .034"

Coil has 'WA768' marked on the side (just googled that and can't find a reference so is probably just a cheapo one) (marked 'use with external resistor' .. I believe that's correct and mine has resistor wire to the coil) so I think it's 1.5 Ohm

I was thinking that I was running way too rich as the plugs always seemed sooty black ..but think I was looking at them after short (5 mile) journeys... if it is running too lean can I just change the main jet ..??

doubt it will help at all ..but here are a couple more carb pics, one showing the venturi

Thanks again for your time !
Darren

 

[thesameguy]

It's very odd that you're not getting detonation at lower engine speeds. Virtually always that is when detonation occurs. Moreover, on modern cars knock sensors generally don't even do anything past 3,000 or 4,000rpm since engine mechanical noise causes such a racket the knock sensors can't "hear" anything anyway. It's interesting to me that your plugs look pretty normal - a bit lean, but hardly wrecked or abused. How many miles do they have on them now?

Do you have an adjustable timing light you could use to see your timing at regular intervals to check the centrifugal advance (or a shop that could do it for you), and/or a vacuum pump to check your vacuum advance? How about a fuel pressure gauge to get a sense of your pump's situation while on the road?

 

[Route--66--]

Hi
Plugs have done probably 2000 miles..

Not got an adjustable timing light - it's just a cheapo one I think I've had since the 80's !!! .. the last time I used it I think!
.. have to say I don't even know how an adjustable one works or how I would check centrifugal advance ..duh !

The fuel pump was new last summer .. not that that means anything as it was just a standard non expensive one from virginia mustang..

CHeers!
D

 

[thesameguy]

I would try higher octane fuel still, but what I really believe you have is a starvation problem (pump not flowing enough fuel at higher engine speed, or a float set too low), an ignition timing problem (too much advance at higher engine speed) or not detonation at all, but some other problem that sounds like detonation. The only way I can see that you'll be able to eliminate a fuel or ignition problem is to measure the performance of each system at an engine speed where the problem is occurring. That would be my approach, anyway.

 

[Frankenstang]

Higher octane would definitely be worth a shot IMO, but to know you're not alone...I have experienced detonation at WOT (wide open throttle), without the additional load of an incline, on my 'generally' stock setup. The stock setups seem particularly prone to leaning out detonation with a healthy amount of advance dialed in...limited flow of the log & one barrel combination, as mentioned.

The tech guy had upped my jet size when he last dyno'd my 1100...but I don't have the number for reference. MPG had run some variations on jetting his 1100...you might search his old posts for reference. 'Mike's carbs' here in the states has the jets, but IIRC at one time a main source for autolite jets was out of Italy.
http://www.carburetor-parts.com/Autolit ... /120-4.htm
I don't think stepping up a jet size or two would hurt in diagnosis/experimentation, but as David mentioned identifying your carb spot on may also yield some of the best clues (btw I thought 1101's did not have anti-stall dash pots...but that may be supposition or poor recolletion)...bore & venturi diameter would be good info to know.

Another option to verify detonation might be to dial in as much initial as your comfortable with 18-20*+ or so and lock out the rest of the advance...then run her up near WOT and see what happens. A fatter jet let me run more total advance, but I also could step back down and limit the total to negate WOT 'ping'. Good luck

[EDIT] PS A 'dial back' timing light will let you adjust the dial on the gun upward until you move the light back to the TDC mark on the timing chain cover...reading total advance at a particular rpm from the number on the dial, although obviously stationary and not out drivning under load.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Back D and All:

How about starting with verifying your timing mark is correct. With the plugs removed rotate the engine by hand until the timing mark on the damper is at the "O" on the timing tab. The piston in the #1 hole should be at the top. Verify that it is at the top by rolling the engine slightly past top and then back slightly short of top. It is hard to see so I use a piece of dowel stick of hard wood to slowly roll to piston up against, both before and after the top. IF the timing mark is off of the zero mark, the outer ring of the damper has likely slipped. Make a new mark and reset your initial advance. Are your disconnecting the vacuum to the carb to set the initial?

YOu might want to try a drive with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged, as Frank suggested, to see what symptoms you get.

Also it is time to verify what main jet you currently have in your 1100. That will require removing the top of the carb, so it's time to get a carb rebuild kit for gaskets and some spray on carb cleaner.

Also get a new set of Autolite 42s or 82s gapped at .045".

Keep up posted on your progress.

Adios, David

 

[Route--66--]

Hi guys
just wanted to post back to say thanks again, will read properly later, but looking quickly at what you've said, am very interested in Frankenstang's thoughts about general inability for the carb/log setup to deliver at higher revs.
Also interested in the thought that my timing mark might have slipped to will run that tdc/timing mark check this weekend too thanks.

I always used to perform all my car related maintenance in the 80's partic (when I was young) and always thought I had a pretty good idea about engines .. but think I need to start reading up again on things I don't really understand like static timing and using one of those dial back timing lights!

Quick question though, do you guys get the 'biscuit brown' plugs that are in the pics in all the old reference pictures???... or do you get something in the 'grey' range like I do ??

CHeers again, as I say, will get around to reading your comments properly later or tomorrow when I have time, thanks loads though, REALLY REALLY appreciete your time! ... (Just seen another thread on pinking / plug temperatures on here that I'll look at later too; http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=57296)

Cheers!
D

 

[Route--66--]

ok.. so now I've had a nose at what setting total timing is..
my static is set to about 9-10 which I assume should have been done with vacuum disconnected and at idle?
looking around I see total timing should be about 34 .. is this correct for this engine? .. one vid said 34 would be more for performance engines and maybe only something like 24 for standard engines.(?)

re Petrol / octane I filled with the highest octane available at the pumps AND added the octane boost/ lead additive so there should be plenty there..

I pulled the plugs earlier today and checked tdc on the pulley and it looks to on the mark at tdc on no. 1.
Checked the gap and they're at 0.035"

Interesting you mention fuel pump.. when I start it from cold after it's been standing a few days it dies quickly for a couple of pulls .. almost as if the fuel pump needs to refill itself before it can get on with feeding the engine.. although saying that.. it does stall straight away .. but there should at least be enough in the float chamber to keep it running a few seconds so maybe that's something else . .. .?

Cheers!
D

 

[Frankenstang]

Likely no earth shattering insight to add here Darren, prolly more an expansion of David’s thoughts above...

It is hard to tell from the spark plug photos, but I' suspecting that your carb is running on the lean side OR You're getting too much advance at steady highway speeds. The darker color on the center plugs is not untypical and likely caused by fuel dispersion short comings of a center mounted carb on a log type manifold.

but for what it’s worth...on the stock setup, It’s very difficult to obtain a nice tune on the center cylinders that doesn’t leave the outer banks running lean, or conversely a good tune on the outer cylinders that doesn’t leave the inner running rich, as David mentioned. One reason why a tri-power is such a ‘natural’ modification for the log head, even though dynamic syncing can be a challenge, the results are far more efficient in fuel for power tradeoffs. At a certain point in the top end of a ‘stocker’ setup you can only massage so much 'more' out of increased fuel to air ratios and/or total advance as the anemic stock cam and log intake design peak too early (diminishing returns).

To expand on my anecdotal experience relative to your current issue, I’m running a full mechanical advance distributor (ie no vacuum component) the disadvantage of course is not having the unnecessary vacuum advance drop out '@WOT' and 'approaching @WOT' operating scenarios. This makes my setup more prone to +/- @WOT ping. However, I do think there is some corollary here, with regard to your questions on max advance for your dual advance setup.

I’ve been able to get away with approx 34-36* total advance with richer jetting. Just as I’ve been able to get by with leaner jetting by limiting total advance to 28-32 (nice thing about the little mallory dizzy is a simple adjustment to limit max advance without affecting the entire curve over the rest of the rpm range). So of course it becomes a tradeoff at the top end of a stocker, a little more advance and richer combo for a 'little' more performance, or a little less advance and leaner combo for a 'little' more mpg’s. And as with most things it comes down to striking that correct ‘balance’ of fuel and ignition tunes to maximize 'your' end goal. Hope your tuning nets you some of the desired results. In the meantime I'd probably stay out of the upper end of the pedal to avoid the 'ping' IIWIYS. Good luck

 

[jimlj66]

Interesting you mention fuel pump.. when I start it from cold after it's been standing a few days it dies quickly for a couple of pulls .. almost as if the fuel pump needs to refill itself before it can get on with feeding the engine.. although saying that.. it does stall straight away .. but there should at least be enough in the float chamber to keep it running a few seconds so maybe that's something else . .. .?

Cheers!
D

I'll have a stab at these issues as they sound like a couple I have been dealing with. Check out this thread where I got answers to one of the problems I was facing. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68202

On the "stall straight away" issue, look down your carburetor and make sure you are getting a squirt of fuel when you work the throttle. If not, you need to rebuild your carburetor and make sure all of the check balls are in the proper place and install the new diaphragm for the accelerator pump. If you get the squirt of fuel, it needs to happen AS SOON as you start to move the throttle. If there is any delay, that will cause the stall you are having. To repair this I had to remove the linkage that connects to the operating lever on the accelerator pump and bend it ( in effect shorten the linkage ). It took a few try's for me to get it right. Before I figured out this fix, the car was just about impossible to drive when the engine was cold, and annoying most any other time.

Good luck!

 

[Route--66--]

cheers
Interesting about the fuel evaporation thing - I thought the system and carb was all kinda closed / sealed.. that would explain the issue though. It's no biggy though, and only involves a couple of short pulls after it's been standing .. and to be honest.. if it is the fuel evaporation that contributes to that gloriously gorgeous 'old car small' when I open the garage door I'd rather leave it like that !! !!

Re the throttle pump action it does produce a good squirt of neat fuel as soon as the throttle is touched - I'll check the setting though to make sure it produces a shot as soon as the slightest touch is applied.

Thanks again too Frankenstang (nice car btw ) I've got a bid in on ebay for an advance timing light and will look for a 28-32 total advance..

But as for immediately .. will just keep out of the upper rev range

Cheers!
D