I .
EDIS-6 Ignition
- Thread starter tri-power 250
- Start date
guy's calm down, the OP is intrested in learning more about 'engine theory' and specifically 'timing theory' it just so happens he is going to test his ignition on a 6cyl, let alone the falcon i6 (at least it's bullet proof). the OP would like to learn, and is willing to go and be a pioneer in this topic for the i6.
please don't make me edit posts, cause I will if this continues.
please don't make me edit posts, cause I will if this continues.
Remember, with every engine there is also an owner, and the goals of the owner are as varied as the goals of the engine.
Why "ice a turd"? Maybe because the owner wants to learn how to curve a distributor. With a computer or with a box of springs...either way works. Is the technology "way too advanced" for a 50-year-old design engine with a cast-in intake manifold and a carburettor that is less advanced than the one on the average lawn mower?
Maybe. Is it too advanced for the guy that wants to do that tuning? That's his (or her) decision.
For what it's worth, that old Windsor went from a distributor in the early 60s or so, up to the EDIS system before it was finally finished 40 years later. Nothing radically different inside--most of the major differences were bolted to the outside (aside from a change in firing order and adding a roller camshaft in the late 80s--which is hardly a rocket science leap like computerized ignition and injection).
Like Rocklord and Tri-Power, I built my engine plans around electronic controls. It's not the engine's decision, and it had more to do with my resources and goals than with the actual abilities of the engine.
I've rebuilt and recurved old Bosch and Lucas dizzies and I know how to do it. Am I good? Hardly. I had a friend with a Sun machine and a box of springs and weights and 20 years of experience.
FSD, you're a guy with the box of springs and weights and years of experience. I know you can set up a great dizzy for each of these engines before morning coffee is done. But you're talking about the engine, and these guys are talking about the owner.
So let's get back to Tri-Power, the owner who has the question. I think 170-3tree's answer is what I would have said. You can use a crank or cam wheel fort the timing, or look at replacing the dizzy with a sensor that also allows the oil pump shaft to turn, like Ford did on the Explorer V8s and some of the DIS 6-cylinder cars (and possibly on the 2.3L although those used a crank wheel in the applications I've tinkered with).
Why "ice a turd"? Maybe because the owner wants to learn how to curve a distributor. With a computer or with a box of springs...either way works. Is the technology "way too advanced" for a 50-year-old design engine with a cast-in intake manifold and a carburettor that is less advanced than the one on the average lawn mower?
Maybe. Is it too advanced for the guy that wants to do that tuning? That's his (or her) decision.
For what it's worth, that old Windsor went from a distributor in the early 60s or so, up to the EDIS system before it was finally finished 40 years later. Nothing radically different inside--most of the major differences were bolted to the outside (aside from a change in firing order and adding a roller camshaft in the late 80s--which is hardly a rocket science leap like computerized ignition and injection).
Like Rocklord and Tri-Power, I built my engine plans around electronic controls. It's not the engine's decision, and it had more to do with my resources and goals than with the actual abilities of the engine.
I've rebuilt and recurved old Bosch and Lucas dizzies and I know how to do it. Am I good? Hardly. I had a friend with a Sun machine and a box of springs and weights and 20 years of experience.
FSD, you're a guy with the box of springs and weights and years of experience. I know you can set up a great dizzy for each of these engines before morning coffee is done. But you're talking about the engine, and these guys are talking about the owner.
So let's get back to Tri-Power, the owner who has the question. I think 170-3tree's answer is what I would have said. You can use a crank or cam wheel fort the timing, or look at replacing the dizzy with a sensor that also allows the oil pump shaft to turn, like Ford did on the Explorer V8s and some of the DIS 6-cylinder cars (and possibly on the 2.3L although those used a crank wheel in the applications I've tinkered with).
tri-power 250
Well-known member
Here is the system I'm going with: http://www.autosportlabs.net/MegaJolt_Lite_Jr.
I have an old laptop and now all I need is the MegaJolt controller. Here are the parts I bought so far: http://www.ebay.com/itm/120835264796?it ... 23&vxp=mtr
Thanks Greywolf for the oil pump drive idea, I'll see if the pick'n'pull has a 2300 I can get the oil pump drive off. Even if I can't use it, it'll be a good starting point.
Ken
The last phase of this engine will be an aluminum head and fuel injection, that will be a couple of years from now.
I have an old laptop and now all I need is the MegaJolt controller. Here are the parts I bought so far: http://www.ebay.com/itm/120835264796?it ... 23&vxp=mtr
Thanks Greywolf for the oil pump drive idea, I'll see if the pick'n'pull has a 2300 I can get the oil pump drive off. Even if I can't use it, it'll be a good starting point.
Ken
The last phase of this engine will be an aluminum head and fuel injection, that will be a couple of years from now.
I
tri-power 250
Well-known member
FSD, I'm a 51 year old truck driver that enjoys playing with cars. Maybe I'm making up for when I was 20 and couldn't afford to play with cars. I appreciate your input and hope I can ask questions in the future.
Ken
I have a 396 SBF in my basement ready to be put into something. The 250 is a neat challenge to me.
Ken
I have a 396 SBF in my basement ready to be put into something. The 250 is a neat challenge to me.
My PM is always open and viewtopic.php?f=1&t=63062 I also posted this recently good luck
Ha ha. I love this thead! Why Ice a Turd?
Why indeed? Well over here, the advent of propane conversions has made understanding EDIS essential for every Kiwi or Aussie mechanic. Lots of people have been using US Impco propane kits, and Ford OZ then had a huge problem with backyard mechanics putting special cams into there 4 liters sixes, and then having massive problems with the sparking system. My background is propane systems on the 1982 141 hp Falcon 250 six, and a propane turbo conversion on a formerly 110 hp Cologne V6. Each of theses came with stock Duraspark systems, but had factory EDIS systems you could retro fit. I did two system set-ups back in 1996, and again in 2000, and I can tell you, a nice distributor is the best idea, or you'll have a legion of other issues to contend with.
Bearing in mind I'm with FSD on the concept that if you are basically competent on ignition, there is no place for EDIS on a log head six. I'd say the advantages are minor if you know how to set up a Motorcraft or DUI distributor, and dollar for dollar, EDIS is spit polishing a log. I'd add that the stock 1973 to 1983 Ford Duraspark is pretty much the best ignItion money can buy, and that for 90 bucks labor, any reworked Duraspark will piddle all over a backyard EDIS set up because when you add another level of complication to ignItion, screw ups are common. So if you running a triple carb six, and you don't know what your doing, an EDIS system will most likely give you the extra rope you needed to hang yourself. That's like me warning a motorcylist that there is a low hanging piano wire with EDIS. It can take you down, and when the system goes down, you need an EEC 5 fault code list to find out what the problem is. So I see EDIS systems as a dangerous portal to trouble for anyone who doesn't understand the basics of ignition.
However, here are the advantages.
Firstly, Because Ford Australia went down this road some time ago with its 4 liter OHC 6, and you can fit a 1998-2002 AU Falcon part to any 1960 to 1983 log head engine block, and totally eliminate the distributor using standard Ford Australia Geelong six or Ford USA Cologne V6 engine parts.
Ford OZ actually had serious managment issues with how they went about lost spark...they even had 3 versions of now you see it, now you don't distributor and EEC system changes from 1993 to 1998. It was a turbulent time when one week a Falcon had EEC 5 EDIS, then it reverted to EEC 4 non EDIS, then back to EEC5. If you had a Falcon pickup (X-series ute based on the US Falcon Ranchero chassid), it had four differnet kinds of igntion set up during the 90's.
But the system itself is world class, a step up even on the seriously smart 48 degree adavance GM 3800 system which yields such terrific results in those old 90 degree port efi front drive Buicks.
The second reason for EDIS 6 is for the same reason racing BDA's respond to lost spark ignition...the stock distributor on X-flows and Super charged Log head engines is in a dopey location, and the electronic system just sings when set up right on a high winding engine! When you add an M90 or turbo, inject, or triple carb an X-flow, the factory EDIS stands out if its set up correctly.
Third is that the conversion to waste spark is sooo easy, see Page 1 from 02-04-2007 of KLR 250's 27 page epic on http://www.xfalcon.com/forum/showthread ... -The-build.
Specifically, the later X, E and A series Fords ( 1994-1996 XG, 1996-1998 XH, 1993-1996EF, 1996-1998 EL, 1998-2003 AU) harmonic balancer parts and triggers bolt right on the non cross flow and x-flow blocks from 1960 to 1993. 33 years and 4 million Aussie Falcons to retrofit, using technology which was rock solid stable and supremely reliable in all 600,000 Falcon 4 litres sixes made from 1993 to 2002.
Fourth and last reasons. Waste spark engines comply with emissions and are easier to tune and keep in tune if you follow the rules. Like any system, if you can do better with less, then you don't need to go to EDIS. I won't go into all the things that can go wrong with EDIS, though. If you fail to follow the factory Australian or US Ford six system, your gonna be chasing your a*** fixing a plethora of problems, and you have to then consider what your going to do to manage the system. EEC 4, EEC 5, or something else like Megasquirt or an aftermarket system. I'll repeat again, The advent of propane conversions has made understanding EDIS essential for every Kiwi or Aussie mechanic.
Why indeed? Well over here, the advent of propane conversions has made understanding EDIS essential for every Kiwi or Aussie mechanic. Lots of people have been using US Impco propane kits, and Ford OZ then had a huge problem with backyard mechanics putting special cams into there 4 liters sixes, and then having massive problems with the sparking system. My background is propane systems on the 1982 141 hp Falcon 250 six, and a propane turbo conversion on a formerly 110 hp Cologne V6. Each of theses came with stock Duraspark systems, but had factory EDIS systems you could retro fit. I did two system set-ups back in 1996, and again in 2000, and I can tell you, a nice distributor is the best idea, or you'll have a legion of other issues to contend with.
Bearing in mind I'm with FSD on the concept that if you are basically competent on ignition, there is no place for EDIS on a log head six. I'd say the advantages are minor if you know how to set up a Motorcraft or DUI distributor, and dollar for dollar, EDIS is spit polishing a log. I'd add that the stock 1973 to 1983 Ford Duraspark is pretty much the best ignItion money can buy, and that for 90 bucks labor, any reworked Duraspark will piddle all over a backyard EDIS set up because when you add another level of complication to ignItion, screw ups are common. So if you running a triple carb six, and you don't know what your doing, an EDIS system will most likely give you the extra rope you needed to hang yourself. That's like me warning a motorcylist that there is a low hanging piano wire with EDIS. It can take you down, and when the system goes down, you need an EEC 5 fault code list to find out what the problem is. So I see EDIS systems as a dangerous portal to trouble for anyone who doesn't understand the basics of ignition.
However, here are the advantages.
Firstly, Because Ford Australia went down this road some time ago with its 4 liter OHC 6, and you can fit a 1998-2002 AU Falcon part to any 1960 to 1983 log head engine block, and totally eliminate the distributor using standard Ford Australia Geelong six or Ford USA Cologne V6 engine parts.
Ford OZ actually had serious managment issues with how they went about lost spark...they even had 3 versions of now you see it, now you don't distributor and EEC system changes from 1993 to 1998. It was a turbulent time when one week a Falcon had EEC 5 EDIS, then it reverted to EEC 4 non EDIS, then back to EEC5. If you had a Falcon pickup (X-series ute based on the US Falcon Ranchero chassid), it had four differnet kinds of igntion set up during the 90's.
But the system itself is world class, a step up even on the seriously smart 48 degree adavance GM 3800 system which yields such terrific results in those old 90 degree port efi front drive Buicks.
The second reason for EDIS 6 is for the same reason racing BDA's respond to lost spark ignition...the stock distributor on X-flows and Super charged Log head engines is in a dopey location, and the electronic system just sings when set up right on a high winding engine! When you add an M90 or turbo, inject, or triple carb an X-flow, the factory EDIS stands out if its set up correctly.
Third is that the conversion to waste spark is sooo easy, see Page 1 from 02-04-2007 of KLR 250's 27 page epic on http://www.xfalcon.com/forum/showthread ... -The-build.
Specifically, the later X, E and A series Fords ( 1994-1996 XG, 1996-1998 XH, 1993-1996EF, 1996-1998 EL, 1998-2003 AU) harmonic balancer parts and triggers bolt right on the non cross flow and x-flow blocks from 1960 to 1993. 33 years and 4 million Aussie Falcons to retrofit, using technology which was rock solid stable and supremely reliable in all 600,000 Falcon 4 litres sixes made from 1993 to 2002.
Fourth and last reasons. Waste spark engines comply with emissions and are easier to tune and keep in tune if you follow the rules. Like any system, if you can do better with less, then you don't need to go to EDIS. I won't go into all the things that can go wrong with EDIS, though. If you fail to follow the factory Australian or US Ford six system, your gonna be chasing your a*** fixing a plethora of problems, and you have to then consider what your going to do to manage the system. EEC 4, EEC 5, or something else like Megasquirt or an aftermarket system. I'll repeat again, The advent of propane conversions has made understanding EDIS essential for every Kiwi or Aussie mechanic.
I
FalconSedanDelivery":2rp1bxqg said:
Why climb everest? Why do anything?
This is a hobby for most of us, not a job. I build stuff because tinkering is my hobby. Putting something unique together to pop your hood at a show and have people actually talk to you vice the "Oh, saw that same blown V-8 build in the september 1998 issue of blah blah blah"
You say you love it for the simplicity. How is the fordsix any simpler than a 289? Both had pushrods. Both are solid engines, both have carbs, fuel pumps. They are the same. any pre EFI engine is simple.
Some of us are not out for 500RWHP drag queens. Some of us are here for the hobby and to tinker. I could have three times the HP in my mustang for the money. My car is all V8 except for the engine and radiator. But honestly, seeing V-8s, blown or not, is boring to me. Walk down the isles at a show and it's all you see.
Remember, this is a hobby. Everyone has a right to do what they want with their money. You want to build blown V8s, go ahead. Everyone here knows the limits of the I6. How you define worth may not meet someone elses description. I don't find the value in cigerette boats with twin 454's. I'd much prefer a Swan 42 sailboat. Is a corvette WORTH the extra money when you can build a mustang to match performance for less money (talking new mustangs and corvettes)? We understand you don't see the worth of it. But sometimes worth is not a pure $$$/HP to everyone. For me, its worth it because of the fun of building something original and not something I can buy out of a catalog or build by watching HP TV.
edited.
I
Ive deleted all my comments as obviously I offended , I will be just a reader , good luck with all your projects .
tri-power 250
Well-known member
I thought this video was kind of cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXVVkrybNpg
For the computer settings dealing with the EDIS-6 ignition here are my starting parameters:
http://1bad6t.com/Maverick/diagrams/DSSPECS.htmL
I am cleaning up a 250 I have in the backyard, getting the grime off, then bringing it into the basement and making all the necessary brackets and wiring harnesses and mounting the EDIS-6. I'll post pictures.
Just to let you know, the engine will be run on a dyno to get the ignition correct before the engine is installed in the car.
Again, thanks for all of the input, please keep it coming.
Ken
For the computer settings dealing with the EDIS-6 ignition here are my starting parameters:
http://1bad6t.com/Maverick/diagrams/DSSPECS.htmL
I am cleaning up a 250 I have in the backyard, getting the grime off, then bringing it into the basement and making all the necessary brackets and wiring harnesses and mounting the EDIS-6. I'll post pictures.
Just to let you know, the engine will be run on a dyno to get the ignition correct before the engine is installed in the car.
Again, thanks for all of the input, please keep it coming.
Ken
I've been downloading all ignition responses in my old EDIS-6 Explorer on the first 1300 miles of my 2500 mile state highway based circuit. I spent 7 years behind a coil pack 1993 GM 3800 engined THM 700R Holden when doing International Ride Index surveys. It was renowned as one of the most aggressively timed engines, but they made awesome fuel economy with excellent acceleration. I always knew the Ford EDIS was even better, now I can see its advantages. Unlike even a really good manifold pressure retard Duraspark, the EEC programmed ignition is even more responsive to changes in road load, temperature, throttle postion etc.
Been really interested to see that at various revs, EDIS is massively aggressive too. My son and I saw 36.5 degrees of advance on 1/3 rd throttle at 2000 rpm in over driven top at 3000 feet while the engine was at 190 degrees on a 70degree day, a huge amount of lead considering we had 4400 pounds yet were still getting 24 miles per US gallon at the time. It's this aspect of EDIS which wreaps rewards at the bowser, but if added to a non port on port carb engine, could blow the living daylights out of it in less than hour if the condition are unfavourable.
Been really interested to see that at various revs, EDIS is massively aggressive too. My son and I saw 36.5 degrees of advance on 1/3 rd throttle at 2000 rpm in over driven top at 3000 feet while the engine was at 190 degrees on a 70degree day, a huge amount of lead considering we had 4400 pounds yet were still getting 24 miles per US gallon at the time. It's this aspect of EDIS which wreaps rewards at the bowser, but if added to a non port on port carb engine, could blow the living daylights out of it in less than hour if the condition are unfavourable.
A while back I used a scantool while driving my mazda and on multiple occasions saw timing in excess of 50*. usually on decel or hard launches, and never lasted more than a second. I know it's more advanced, but still intriguing in the topic at hand.
I think that being able to optimize the timing curve to fractions of degrees could see improvements, though minor, in power and economy. It won't net a tenth in the 1/4 but might save a gallon of fuel driving cross-state.
the only hard part is deciding what is "optimal"
I think that being able to optimize the timing curve to fractions of degrees could see improvements, though minor, in power and economy. It won't net a tenth in the 1/4 but might save a gallon of fuel driving cross-state.
the only hard part is deciding what is "optimal"
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