Engine Upgrade

[Vin Man]

Hello all. I'm new here and wanted to jump right in and get some opinions. My 67 Coupe has the 200CI engine in it and I'm ready to upgrade. I have acquired an Aussie head and 2 bbl intake. I live in the metro Phoenix area and I'm looking for some help/guidance on a ouple of questions off the bat:

1- Should I exchange my current short block for a new one? I've used 5 Star Engine in Peoria on past projects with no issue, but not sure what experience others have had. Other alternative would be to have current long block redone at a machine shop.

2-What work should I have done to the stock Aussie head I've acquired? I am not at all knowledgeable about engine internals/machine work. I can pull the engine/tranny/etc. and replace, but I wouldn't know how to spec out and build an engine.

3-This is a daily driver. What type of cam should I put in?

4- Where do I get the needed parts for this project such as gaskets, headers, etc?

Those questions will get me going for now. Thanks.

-Vinny

 

[Eric Rose]

Classic Inlines (one of the few companies that make hop-up parts for these motors) is pretty much right in your backyard.

As far as buying a new engine v/s rebuilding your current one... that depends on a couple of things, the first being how worn your stock engine is now. If it can be overhauled with minimal machine work, you will save money over a new engine.

Second, by having your engine built, you get to control what goes into it and what gets done to it. You will know the quality of the parts and you will be able to specify any modifications (piston to deck height, dish top/flat top pistons, compression ratio, etc). It requires more time and research than buying a motor thats already been done, but the finished product could be more suited to your application.

Some things to think about:

1.) What octane fuel do you want it to run on?
2.) Are you willing to sacrifice performance for economy or vice versa?
3.) What RPM range would you want the engine to reach peak power?
4.) Do you have an auto or a manual? Do you need the engine to produce vacuum?
5.) Is overheating a major concern?

 

[Vin Man]

Thanks Eric. I've been browsing this site for the last 30 mins and its starting to come back to me. Mike is the guy here in town that I've connected with in the past. Now that I'm ready to invest, I'll track him down again. He had some great ideas for me in the past as well.


1.) What octane fuel do you want it to run on?
I want to put the cheapest gas I can in the car. 87
2.) Are you willing to sacrifice performance for economy or vice versa?
I will sacrifice performance for economy, yes. However, I'm expecting to get more out of the engine once I rebuild it. I plan to add headers in addition to the Aussie head. I'm hoping I can at least keep my current mpg while gaining hp.
3.) What RPM range would you want the engine to reach peak power?
I don't really know how to answer this question as I'm more a less a get in and drive it type of a guy. I'm not going to race the car, just drive it to work, and maybe a cruise in once in a while. I would guess that peak power will probably happen in an rpm range that I don't get to very often.

4.) Do you have an auto or a manual? Do you need the engine to produce vacuum?
I have a C-4 automatic in the car right now. A future project I would like to take on is to install an AOD tranny I have acquired. I thought I would do the engine first, enjoy it for a while, then do the tranny.
5.) Is overheating a major concern? Absolutely not. The car has never had a problem in this area - luckily. I added aftermarket a/c a couple of years ago, drive it in the heat of summer in PHoenix with A/C on, and never have a problem overheating.

Ultimately, I guess I want a daily driver with a little more power than I have now. I also want a better sound - but suspect the headers and exhaust will fix that.

 

[Gene Fiore]

You will definately want to check with Mike at www.classicinlines.com

 

[Eric Rose]

You your AOD might not bolt up to the '67 block without an adapter or machining. You could get around this by getting an early '80's "big bell" 200 or a 250. Both of those have a bolt pattern that will be more accomodating to a SBF bellhousing.

You want the engine to make peak power (and more importantly, peak torque) in the RPM where it will be driven most. If you do a lot of low speed city driving you will want torque to peak from idle up to 4,000. If you do a lot of driving on the highway in high gear, you might want more top end.

The automatic will play into the cam specifications. You will want something with more lobe seperation that will make more vacuum for operating the modulator valve etc.

Running a low octane fuel will limit you as to how high you can go with compression. But there are things you can do to improve efficiency like valve jobs, zero decking, and porting.

 

[Vin Man]

Eric,
Since I'm considering an exchange short block, I'm wondering if I should exchange my current stock 200 for the big bell you mention. Do all of the engine accessories, including my aussie head, bolt right onto this big bell block you mention?

Since I want to run the low octane, I would opt for the head modifications you mention to make up the compression difference.

 

[Eric Rose]

Eric,
Since I'm considering an exchange short block, I'm wondering if I should exchange my current stock 200 for the big bell you mention..

The big bell still requires a little bit of modification to mount a V8 bellhousing to it. I think you have to drill 2 holes. You'll probably need a flywheel from a 300 truck six too. You can search this board and find the answer though, I'm sure its been covered.

The big bell blocks are also low compression, so if you go with one it would probably be your best bet to rebuild it yourself so you can raise the compression.

 

[Vin Man]

Wow. I'm just starting to do my research using this forum and the Classicinlines tech section. I didn't realize I had so many questions.

My original thought was to pull the existing stock engine, have the short block redone by a machine shop to stock specs except for the cam, install the Aussie head, and add headers and a 2bbl carb. New water pump would be in order as well.

I already run the petronix so wasn't thinking of making any other changes.

Now, after reading a number of posts and tech articles, I'm getting really confused and worried about budget. I just read another post - it reminds me to slow down and get back to basics. I think I can go with my original plan, just need to identify the proper cam. Also, before I put the aussie head on, I need to have it gone through. So I need to figure out what work to have done to it, but will likely just keep it stock.

 

[MiniCJJ64]

I had my 200 rebuilt by 5 star and I have been happy since. I have 16,000+ miles on the rebuilt engine. They didn't have a extra engine to exchange, so they rebuilt mine and gave it back to me. The only thing I wish I did was get the cam I wanted and have them put that in instead, so I don't have to do it later. From what I remember it was $650 with head and block and $450 for block.

 

[Vin Man]

Some decisions I've made:

I want a smooth ride around town and want to be able to run the cheap gas (87 octane).

Regarding the Aussie head, I'm going to take it to a mahcine shop, have it cleaned and inspected. I'm going to keep it stock and not port/polished. I am going to have the port diverted installed for the exhaust. Need to get one (need to find this part). If valve job is needed, I'll have it done and only add hardened seats if there has been deterioration and they are needed. I'll have it milled to ensure it is flat and can mate up to the engine block.

Regarding cam, I think I'm going to go with the 260. Very mild. I want a smooth ride.

Exhaust - headers definitely. I plan on using a two into one muffler with dual outlets.

Decisions left to make:

Carb is still undecided. The intake I have is also made for the head. It is set up for a 2bbl. I am contemplating a 4bbl as I expect I would get better gas mileage around town when only on the 2bbls, but would have the benefit of the full 4bbls when I need it.

Short block - haven't decided yet if I am going to have mine rebuilt or just do an engine exchange with Five Star. Either way, I'll need to supply the cam.

I suspect I'll wind up with a compression ratio around 9:1.
I plan to keep the stock rear end.

Thanks so far for the input. I've found this site very helpful, along with input from Mike at Classic Inlines.

 

[Bort62]

Over all, it sounds like a good plan. I would skip the port divider, but that's just me

If I were running that setup, I think I would go w/ the Holley 350 CFM. Any 4bbl is really too much carb on a mild 200, and performance will suffer.

I would also at least spend a little time on removing the valve guides from the intake/exhaust ports on the head. I don't know how bad they are on the aussie - but it so easy it is silly not to do it.

 

[Vin Man]

Over all, it sounds like a good plan. I would skip the port divider, but that's just me

If I were running that setup, I think I would go w/ the Holley 350 CFM. Any 4bbl is really too much carb on a mild 200, and performance will suffer.

I would also at least spend a little time on removing the valve guides from the intake/exhaust ports on the head. I don't know how bad they are on the aussie - but it so easy it is silly not to do it.

Thanks for the input Ian. Can you tell me why you would skip the port divider? I've had different people tell me different things. The last person I talked to was the owner of Pony Carbs. During the discussion on carbs, the port divider came up and he highly recommended it. I don't know better so I'm anxious to hear why you wouldn't bother.

Regarding the carb, Pony Carbs said the same thing. Too much carb. My thinking here is that if I have the 4bbl, and am just running the 2bbls, I'm actually at a lower cfm than 350 which is better for the engine. The 390 would only come it to play when I'm passing on the freeway.

If I go with a 2bbl carb instead of a 4bbl, is the 350 too much? Should I go with something smaller?

Thanks again for the input.

 

[ludwig]

Dang. Why couldn't the last string on this topic

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=50712

have been as helpful as this current one is?

That guy has only made one post in his life on April 27. I PM'd him on the 30th. He hasn't answered on the string or my PM. Hope we didn't lose one for lack of courtesy.

 

[ludwig]

Do a search on 'port divider' and you will see that the opinions are clearly divided.

350 is just about at the max end of flow for our engines. Some guys go bigger with other mods.

 

[Bort62]

Dang. Why couldn't the last string on this topic

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=50712

have been as helpful as this current one is?

That guy has only made one post in his life on April 27. I PM'd him on the 30th. He hasn't answered on the string or my PM. Hope we didn't lose one for lack of courtesy.

I will tell you exactly why. The referenced poster asked a completely general question which has been gone over 1000 times. Posting "what can I do to increase performance" is almost impossible to answer (shy of giving a general dissertation on performance modifications for internal combustion engines, which is already avaliable at length in the archives) and is a waste of time. It's exactly the same as the guys who come in and post "how do I install a turbo". How are you supposed to answer that? The referenced poster wants a quick answer to a general question to which there is no specific answer. He also apparantly lacks any real motivation to clear things up as evidenced by his lack of follow up. I guess we could have just told him to buy a new cam and some headers or something and sent him on his way, but that's not very helpful either.

This poster however asked several specific questions to which people were able to give specific answers (and had not been beat to death). That makes all the difference in the world.

It also doesn't hurt that this Vinny fellow seems to be able to create an organized and concise post that gets to the point as opposed to the referenced poster's random use of periods and creative sentence structure. A disorganized writing style generally indicates a disorganized thought process, and is only the tip of the iceberg when trying to help someone with a question they don't even know how to ask.

Just IMO, of course. Apparantly I'm not the only one who feels that way as evidenced by the completely different outcome of the two threads.

I'm just more vocal about it.

 

[Bort62]

Vinny,

My opinion on the port divider is based on a whole lot of data that is entirely inconclusive. No one has ever demonstrated any increase in power with the port divider(that I have ever seen, bring it on!). The one thing that people have demonstrated is the propensity for it to break loose and become a nusiance rattling around in the exhaust. YMMV, but I doubt it. The fact that pony carbs recommends it speaks volumes, IMO.

I'm suprised the guy at pony carbs was even willing to talk to you about your modified engine. He didn't by chance suggest to you that the only carb that could possibly work right would be an Autolite 1100 did he? Perhaps this is a sign that things are changing over there... (I don't have a high opinion of them, either).

The reason I recommend the holley 350 is purely emperical. Numerous members here are running that carb and nearly 100% report great results. I understand your thinking that with a small 4bbl running on the primaries you may have a lower effective part throttle carb size - and to a point that is true. I suppose that depends primarily on what 4bbl you have in mind and how it works specifically. I won't profess to know everything about every 4bbl out there.

If the engine were larger, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. I'm personally not sure in this particular case. I'm a big fan of quadrajets for this very reason.

In the spirit of that however many here are running the HW 5200, which is a progressive 2bbl carburetor and gives you the effective part throttle venturi signal of a 1bbl carb. Again, almost 100% positive feedback with this carb, the only comment being that the holley 350 does seem to support a little more power at the expense of some economy. Personally, I don't think you could go wrong with either.

Seems like you are headed in the right direction.

 

[Vin Man]

Vinny,

He didn't by chance suggest to you that the only carb that could possibly work right would be an Autolite 1100 did he?

LMAO! He certainly did!

If there isn't any significant benefit, then I'm only going to be installing something that will be a future in the problem. I will do the search Ludwig suggested and see why others would recommend it. I suspect, given the nature of the driving I plan to do, it won't make enough of a difference to be bothered having it installed (and having to pay for the part and the time/material to install it).

Regarding the 2bbl, my original plan was to go with a 2bbl, and again I have been pursuaded by others (mostly people with V8s) to strongly consider the Holley 390 CFM 4 bbl. I'm thinking my orginal strategy was sound and will do a little more research on the above mentioned HW5200, progressive 2bbl carburetor. It sounds like exactly what I want to give me both fuel economy and performance.

 

[Bort62]

Vinny,

He didn't by chance suggest to you that the only carb that could possibly work right would be an Autolite 1100 did he?

LMAO! He certainly did!

Wow, that is just too funny. Nothing if not predictable.

In principal, it seems like a 390 CFM vac secondary 4bbl would work. I don't however know of anyone running one here.

 

[ludwig]

In principal, it seems like a 390 CFM vac secondary 4bbl would work. I don't however know of anyone running one here.

Could it be that the optimal volumetric efficiency is achieved somewhere north of 5500 or 6000 RPM without a different cam and/or larger displacement?

 

[ludwig]

Vinny,

He didn't by chance suggest to you that the only carb that could possibly work right would be an Autolite 1100 did he?

LMAO! He certainly did!

I wonder if somebody doesn't understand capitalism here. If I sold cherries, why would I pass out recipes for apple pie. If I sold apples, why would I take the time to speculate on the advantages of oranges.

If I build 1100s from my own design, why wouldn't I try to turn a blind query into a sale? Or were you just going to pick my brain and then buy your hardware somewhere else?

I'll bet if you called Holley-Weber they would try to sell you something from their line.

Just to be clear, Ian doesn't like PP; Pony or Pertronix. Period.