So I'm looking at trying to pull some more power out of my 200 without seriously hampering my MPG or having to go to higher octane gas. I've heard these engines don't breath well at all and have been looking at the various head options. What is the benefit of the new aluminum heads from Classic Inlines over the one from clifford performance? Is it possible to get my stock head ported and have larger valves added for signifcantly cheaper than the one from clifford? Want to get some more power but money is always a little tight. I don't want to pay substantially more for a CI aluminum head with marginal gains in power. Thanks for the help.
Head Opinion
- Thread starter 65mustangcoupe
- Start date
Unless you know someone who will port and polish your heads and can gets the parts for cheap it is a far better investment to buy the CI asembled head for IIRC $1500 and the new intake for about IIRC $300.
The best head porter on the planet working miracles and arcane arts will be doing good if he can get your log head to flow 170cfm at .400" lift.
The CI head flows about 205cfm out of the box and ported versions have seen the high side of 225cfm.
To give you an idea I used to have a 302W with Australian 351C-2v closed chamber heads that were built up. This is equivalent to having a Boss 302 head back in the day.
The new CI head flows as good as the old Boss 302 and gives up nothing to the 5.0L aluminum head market.
Bolt on and keeping a mild tune and a stock 2bbl carb its a 100hp bolt on.
I personally would kill to have one but fate keeps intervening.
The best head porter on the planet working miracles and arcane arts will be doing good if he can get your log head to flow 170cfm at .400" lift.
The CI head flows about 205cfm out of the box and ported versions have seen the high side of 225cfm.
To give you an idea I used to have a 302W with Australian 351C-2v closed chamber heads that were built up. This is equivalent to having a Boss 302 head back in the day.
The new CI head flows as good as the old Boss 302 and gives up nothing to the 5.0L aluminum head market.
Bolt on and keeping a mild tune and a stock 2bbl carb its a 100hp bolt on.
I personally would kill to have one but fate keeps intervening.
You're saying that bolting on one of the CI street/strip aluminum heads and the new intake as well as putting a 2v carb on my stock rebuilt 200 is worth 100 hp?
I wouldn't say that in a month of Sundays. There's massive potential for variance between "stock rebuilt 200s" simply based on competence and detail.65mustangcoupe":1bgx4fg2 said:
Personally, I'd build a red-hot shortblock that could later support a rebuilt or new head.
65mustangcoupe":3q65tcjd said:
I'm with Addo here.....no way should you assume that you'll gain 100 hp in your situation. :roll: Maybe if you had a full-boogie 200 with plenty of cam,compression,exhaust and for some reason had been running a stopped-up stock head on it you might gain something approaching that number,but to say it's a 100 hp bolt-on for a stock application is sure to lead to disappointment.
Howdy MC65 and All:
First, welcome to The Forum! Yes, it is that good.
You've ask a bunch of question that can be answered in part. The final answer will have to come from you. It would be helpful if you would add location to your sign-in. That would indicate elevation. Also what transmission will you be using. I'm assuming that the engine will be in a '65 Mustang. What is the octane rating of the gas you are now using?
Q- "So I'm looking at trying to pull some more power out of my 200 without seriously hampering my MPG or having to go to higher octane gas. I've heard these engines don't breath well at all and have been looking at the various head options."
A- A more powerful engine is usually a more efficient engine. The problem is it is also more fun to modulate the loud pedal= pooer mileage. It is possible to improve a '65 200 so that it will have more power and get good mileage on the same grade of gas you are now using. Breathing can be significantly improve on a stock type head (See below)
Q- "What is the benefit of the new aluminum heads from Classic Inlines?"
A- The new Aluminum head has many benefits over a cast iron head. to name a few, it is; lighter, flows significantly better, especially at higher rpms, has better heat transfer, bolts directly to stock type blocks. The down-side are; it's relative expensive, it takes specific parts in combination to get it's potential out (true of all engine), and we're still learning about it.
Although I don't believe that an aluminum head and 2V intake will yeild a 100 HP increase over a good running stock engine, it will show a significant improvement. But, If you were investing in the performance potential of a custom head, why wouldn't you optimize all the other parts too; like cam,ignition, exhaust, compression, etc... Then an increase on 100HP is within reason.
Q- "over the one from Clifford Performance?"
A- I don't know what the Clifford head package is going for right now, but in the past, they have been pricy and very well done. They are a big improvement over a stock head, but will fall short of the potential of the new alloy head. For about the same money, if I were going all out, I'd go with the C.I. head.
Q- "Is it possible to get my stock head ported and have larger valves added for signifcantly cheaper than the one from clifford?"
A- The simple answer is "YES"! The longer answer is there are several ways you could go. 1st is to rebuild your own stock head adding 1.75" intakes, with a three angle valve job on the seat and a back-cut on the valve. Go through the head as you would in a typical valve job. The 2nd option is to find a late model head (after '77). It will have the larger intake valves, a larger volume intake tract, a 1.75" carb hole and hardened valve seats. Using this later head as the foundation of a valve job significantly lowers the price of machining and parts upgrading. Add the steps listed above and milling to your goal CR. When it's finished swap the old for the new. You are now ready for improved carburetion, ignition and exhaust.
Q- "Want to get some more power but money is always a little tight. I don't want to pay substantially more for a CI aluminum head with marginal gains in power"
A- The definitions of "Tight Money", "Substantially more", and "Marginal Gains" are arbitrary. Only you can decide.
Finally, there is a wealth of information on this Forum. It is here for the taking. Many have been down this road, read and learn. Start finding your answers by answering these questions: What do you want when you're done? Are you interested in stock appearing, restomod, or ? What is a realistic budget.
One of the beauties of your car/engine/project is it is a bit of a jig-saw puzzle in that you can do it a bit at a time. But it is always good to have a goal and a plan in mind so that you don't end up back-tracking and redoing the same item.
I'm sorry to go on so, but there are really no short, or easy answers to your query.
Adios, David
First, welcome to The Forum! Yes, it is that good.
You've ask a bunch of question that can be answered in part. The final answer will have to come from you. It would be helpful if you would add location to your sign-in. That would indicate elevation. Also what transmission will you be using. I'm assuming that the engine will be in a '65 Mustang. What is the octane rating of the gas you are now using?
Q- "So I'm looking at trying to pull some more power out of my 200 without seriously hampering my MPG or having to go to higher octane gas. I've heard these engines don't breath well at all and have been looking at the various head options."
A- A more powerful engine is usually a more efficient engine. The problem is it is also more fun to modulate the loud pedal= pooer mileage. It is possible to improve a '65 200 so that it will have more power and get good mileage on the same grade of gas you are now using. Breathing can be significantly improve on a stock type head (See below)
Q- "What is the benefit of the new aluminum heads from Classic Inlines?"
A- The new Aluminum head has many benefits over a cast iron head. to name a few, it is; lighter, flows significantly better, especially at higher rpms, has better heat transfer, bolts directly to stock type blocks. The down-side are; it's relative expensive, it takes specific parts in combination to get it's potential out (true of all engine), and we're still learning about it.
Although I don't believe that an aluminum head and 2V intake will yeild a 100 HP increase over a good running stock engine, it will show a significant improvement. But, If you were investing in the performance potential of a custom head, why wouldn't you optimize all the other parts too; like cam,ignition, exhaust, compression, etc... Then an increase on 100HP is within reason.
Q- "over the one from Clifford Performance?"
A- I don't know what the Clifford head package is going for right now, but in the past, they have been pricy and very well done. They are a big improvement over a stock head, but will fall short of the potential of the new alloy head. For about the same money, if I were going all out, I'd go with the C.I. head.
Q- "Is it possible to get my stock head ported and have larger valves added for signifcantly cheaper than the one from clifford?"
A- The simple answer is "YES"! The longer answer is there are several ways you could go. 1st is to rebuild your own stock head adding 1.75" intakes, with a three angle valve job on the seat and a back-cut on the valve. Go through the head as you would in a typical valve job. The 2nd option is to find a late model head (after '77). It will have the larger intake valves, a larger volume intake tract, a 1.75" carb hole and hardened valve seats. Using this later head as the foundation of a valve job significantly lowers the price of machining and parts upgrading. Add the steps listed above and milling to your goal CR. When it's finished swap the old for the new. You are now ready for improved carburetion, ignition and exhaust.
Q- "Want to get some more power but money is always a little tight. I don't want to pay substantially more for a CI aluminum head with marginal gains in power"
A- The definitions of "Tight Money", "Substantially more", and "Marginal Gains" are arbitrary. Only you can decide.
Finally, there is a wealth of information on this Forum. It is here for the taking. Many have been down this road, read and learn. Start finding your answers by answering these questions: What do you want when you're done? Are you interested in stock appearing, restomod, or ? What is a realistic budget.
One of the beauties of your car/engine/project is it is a bit of a jig-saw puzzle in that you can do it a bit at a time. But it is always good to have a goal and a plan in mind so that you don't end up back-tracking and redoing the same item.
I'm sorry to go on so, but there are really no short, or easy answers to your query.
Adios, David
8) david and the others gave you some good but general information. the stodck can be ported for more power, but unless you are doing it yourself, you are going to spend a lot of money getting the porting done, and installing larger valves. enough in fact to just about buy the new head and just have to come up with a few bucks for the intake that goes with the new head. remember that these are not small block ford or chevy heads that have been studied since captain marvel was in boot camp. these small six heads are also not easy to port on the intake side due to the log not being removable, which will add to the price of the porting.
as for horsepower increase, on a stock 200 you should see about 40hp above a stock head, and as you add compression, cam timing, and extra airflow capacity you will see even more power.
as for adding efficiency, as long as you match your parts to the rpm range you plan to run in about 80% of the time, you will gain efficiency, and that translates into better fuel economy as you will use less throttle pressure to get to and maintain speed.
as for horsepower increase, on a stock 200 you should see about 40hp above a stock head, and as you add compression, cam timing, and extra airflow capacity you will see even more power.
as for adding efficiency, as long as you match your parts to the rpm range you plan to run in about 80% of the time, you will gain efficiency, and that translates into better fuel economy as you will use less throttle pressure to get to and maintain speed.
Actually the fact it had a log head meant that I was able to barter a bit with my machinist.
They normally charge $100 to per cylinder for a port and polish, so I said since there nothing to be done on the intake side, how about $50?
They cut me a good deal. Get an estimate.
They gasket matched the exhaust, did a nice job on the valve pockets, installed and unshrouded the oversized valves, skimmed 50 thou.
I don't remember the actual costs, but it was far cheaper than ponying up for the aluminum head, which of course has only just now become available. Like less than a grand, IIRC. I pulled the '78 head for $35 at the junkyard, and got everything that was attached to it.
They normally charge $100 to per cylinder for a port and polish, so I said since there nothing to be done on the intake side, how about $50?
They cut me a good deal. Get an estimate.
They gasket matched the exhaust, did a nice job on the valve pockets, installed and unshrouded the oversized valves, skimmed 50 thou.
I don't remember the actual costs, but it was far cheaper than ponying up for the aluminum head, which of course has only just now become available. Like less than a grand, IIRC. I pulled the '78 head for $35 at the junkyard, and got everything that was attached to it.
to add to what Anlushac11 and rbohm said, you can spend a lot of money on the stock head. I've seen a bunch of these heads that are cracked, the minor ones repairable, the others not.
The aluminum heads are highly repairable. I've seen some off SBC sprint cars that had been hammered to hell and were readily repaired.
The aluminum heads are highly repairable. I've seen some off SBC sprint cars that had been hammered to hell and were readily repaired.
A
Anonymous
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I was looking for a little difference also. I went to the junk yard and found a 81 250 engine and got the head off it. The valves have steel seats and are larger. I also got the carb off it of which it is a larger bore single barrel and OH it. I just finished the head and fixing to install it. There should be a lot of difference I hope just to see how it works on my 200 engine. The main reason I am doing this is my engine overheats up to 225 degrees and I am trying to cool it down some. Hopefully it will run better and cool some also. You might look into saving alot of bucks by going to something like this. The head is cheap as well as the used carb. I also have an extra carb. Good luck champion2211
