Holly Terminator-X on a ford 300

[inline6]

I know the terminator efi is not made to go on a straight six but could it. I see no reason why it shouldn't as long as both the cam and crankshaft sensors are hooked up properly with the system. Another problem would be the extra material for the two missing cylinders gauging that the v6 harness wouldn't be long enough for it to reach all of the ports.
I'm hoping someone will be able to give insight because this sure stumped Holley.

 

[Frank]

If it's an efi engine the stock TFI distributor will trigger terminator. Pretty sure the correct kit is the 302 V8 kit. That's the most I can contribute. pmuller9 can best answer these questions. I suggest posting it on the "big block" threads, will get more views.

 

[pmuller9]

You would use the Terminat X 550-936 universal kit.

Holley 550-936 Terminator X MPFI Universal w/ | EFISystemPro

Learn about the Holley Terminator X MPFI Universal w/ & compare to other Other & Universal Multi-Point (MPFI) Systems. Fast-free shipping, amazing technical support: EFISystemPro.

www.efisystempro.com

You may have to change the length of some of the wires on the injector harness, but that's not a problem.

If you are going to use batch firing for the injectors, the Ford EFI engine TFI distributor will work great for the trigger signal.
If you want to do sequential injection, then you would mount a 60-2 trigger wheel on the back of a 1996 4.9 harmonic balancer and modify the same distributor to produce the cam sync signal.

Did you want to do batch or sequential?

 

[TheDrZero]

You would use the Terminat X 550-936 universal kit.

Holley 550-936 Terminator X MPFI Universal w/ | EFISystemPro

Learn about the Holley Terminator X MPFI Universal w/ & compare to other Other & Universal Multi-Point (MPFI) Systems. Fast-free shipping, amazing technical support: EFISystemPro.

www.efisystempro.com

You may have to change the length of some of the wires on the injector harness, but that's not a problem.

If you are going to use batch firing for the injectors, the Ford EFI engine TFI distributor will work great for the trigger signal.
If you want to do sequential injection, then you would mount a 60-2 trigger wheel on the back of a 1996 4.9 harmonic balancer and modify the same distributor to produce the cam sync signal.

Did you want to do batch or sequential?

I know this is bringing back an old thread but it’s easier than starting a new thread. I’m looking to upgrade my 95 4.9 to modern EFI so I can put a mild cam in and possibly add a small turbo later. From my research, sequential offers slightly better efficiency but no real difference otherwise? If this is true would you think upgrading to sequential to be “worth” the hassle? For reference, my truck is basically setup as a camper now so I can stay in it while traveling for work, so I have 1500-2000 lbs that permanently lives in the bed now and routinely drive long distances on the interstate.

Also, if going the sequential route, once the oem distributor is modified to be cam sync, can’t I then upgrade to coil on plug? I assume I would then use LS coils as the easy solution. Again, is this worth it?

Last question is if using the Holley universal kit, what else is needed? Would the oem Temperature and oil pressure sensors work? Any other sensors needed to be installed? Any other upgrades recommended to do while I’m in there anyway? Would my dual tanks still work?

I’ve tried searching for these answers on the forum but there’s no one place where everything is listed that I can find. And the search usually brings me to a 30 page thread, and half the time reading the whole thing still doesn’t answer the question I had or leaves me more confused.

Thank you in advance for any and all help!

 

[pmuller9]

Sequential injection provides a little more efficiency at low rpm including cruising speeds, but the better advantage is found with the ignition system
If you go "coil near" you eliminate the distributor problems including the coil wire, long plug wires, rotor to cap gap and cap failure.
The important problem that is eliminated is distributor rotor phasing and is especially important if you add boosted cylinder pressure.

Here is the instruction manual.
The sensors listed that you need start on page 8.

https://documents.holley.com/7d79323ce5796125537438c60ad1f59343582770.pdf

Coolant Temperature Sensor (CTS)
Wide Band Oxygen Sensor (WBO2) This is included with the unit.
Manifold Air Temperature (MAT)
Ignition / Crank and Cam Sensors
Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor (MAP) A 1 bar sensor is included in the unit.
Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)
Idle Air Control (IAC)
Fuel Injectors
Ignition Coils

Oil Pressure Sensor and Fuel Pressure are optional.

Holley EFI 550-936 Holley EFI Terminator X Universal MPFI Kit

Take control of your engine with Terminator X! Don't settle for a factory ECU with a cumbersome tuning interface when you can have complete control of your engine, self-learning fuel strategies and the proven, race-winning technology of Holley EFI at a budget-friendly price! Terminator X...

www.holley.com

 

[TheDrZero]

Sequential injection provides a little more efficiency at low rpm including cruising speeds, but the better advantage is found with the ignition system
If you go "coil near" you eliminate the distributor problems including the coil wire, long plug wires, rotor to cap gap and cap failure.
The important problem that is eliminated is distributor rotor phasing and is especially important if you add boosted cylinder pressure.

Thank you for the link to the instruction manual, I just read through it twice. It answered a few questions but of course added a few more.

If using batch, how would you program the terminator to use the Ford TFI distributor to fire an inline 6? From reading the instructions it seems like the Terminator will only recognize the TFI for use with a 302 or 351?

If switching to sequential (which I’ll probably do) how do you modify the TFI to provide a cam signal? What about the crank signal? Looking on rock auto they’re showing the same harmonic balancer for 87-96 F150 with the 4.9. Do I need a balancer from a 96? And what about the 60-2 trigger wheel? Any particular size that would work best? Then use a stock crank sensor from a 96 4.9? After that I assume I just need to make up a wiring harness to fire the six coil packs?

I know I’ve seen on here before that you can swap the injectors to a more modern style that better atomizes fuel for more power and economy. Should I go with a stock size replacement when doing this or go with slightly bigger injectors? That way if I go to do the turbo later that’ll already be taken care of. Also will I need to make an injector harness or will the stock harness just plug in?

In the future if I decide to add the turbo, will the stock fuel system support that or will I need to upgrade the pumps? I’m not looking for huge power, I just want to be able to go up mountains easier on the interstate.

Can the Terminator use the stock Ford MAP sensor or do I need to buy one? I plan to put the Terminator in the cab so I’d rather use an external MAP than run a mile long hose to use the internal one. If I do need to purchase one, can I get a 2 Bar MAP or will that ONLY work with boost? Again, trying to buy once cry once and future proof in case I decide to add the turbo later.

Seeing how Holley wants you to use either an LS style oil pressure sensor or buy their expensive one, is there a problem using an adapter? A 1/4 npt to m16 adapter is only $10, then I can get an oil sensor from rock auto for like $20.

That’s all I can think of right now to ask, sorry it’s a lot. I’m trying to make a list of everything I’ll need so I can order it now. I don’t want to get halfway through and need to start ordering more parts if I can avoid it. Please let me know if there’s anything I’m missing that I’ll also need. Thanks again, you guys on here are an incredible wealth of knowledge.

 

[pmuller9]

If using batch, how would you program the terminator to use the Ford TFI distributor to fire an inline 6? From reading the instructions it seems like the Terminator will only recognize the TFI for use with a 302 or 351?

The Ford TFI distributor has the same output signal as the Sniper HyperSpark Distributor.
Select Sniper HyperSpark Distributors

If switching to sequential (which I’ll probably do) how do you modify the TFI to provide a cam signal?

The TFI distributor has 6 vanes to create six windows.
You simply remove five of the vanes and leave one as the cam sync window.
Then you can make a low profile cover to replace the cap. Holley makes a billet cover that may also fit.

M112 - 300 Build for the '56

Pmuller, is either one (map vs maf) better than the other in a boosted application? Does Holley HP prefer one over the other? The Holley HP universal wiring systems come with a MAP sensor. Here is one conversation on the Holley forum. https://forums.holley.com/showthread.ph ... I-Software

fordsix.com

What about the crank signal? Looking on rock auto they’re showing the same harmonic balancer for 87-96 F150 with the 4.9. Do I need a balancer from a 96? And what about the 60-2 trigger wheel? Any particular size that would work best? Then use a stock crank sensor from a 96 4.9?

The 1996 balancer is different and has a 3 tooth wheel that bolts behind it.
Get a universal 60-2 wheel that is around 7" in diameter and modify it to bolt behind the 1996 balancer.

 

[pmuller9]

Go with a bigger injector from the start.
Unless you have a 1996 4.9 injector harness, the earlier batch fire harnesses will not work.
The stock fuel system may work for a light boost application, but I don't know for sure.
Get a 2 bar MAP sensor and yes it will work without boost.

 

[TheDrZero]

Go with a bigger injector from the start.
Unless you have a 1996 4.9 injector harness, the earlier batch fire harnesses will not work.
The stock fuel system may work for a light boost application, but I don't know for sure.
Get a 2 bar MAP sensor and yes it will work without boost.

Ok, so a few more questions. I read the parts about the distributor in the link you posted and read the instructions for the Holley DIS linked there. I’m a little confused because the pictures won’t load on the old post anymore. When cutting the vanes off in the distributor, which one do I leave on? Or does it not matter?

Also what about this kit? They say the kit provides “higher resolution” cam signal to allow for sequential injection. Is this used used instead of the 60-2 crank trigger? And if so is it compatible with the Holley? They don’t list Holley as compatible but say it’s compatible with other EFI that can use missing tooth cam signals.

Cam Angle Sensor (CAS) Conversion for TFI Distributor

This kit includes cam angle sensor & billet cap and allows you to ditch the TFI module, stock ignition system/coil, etc. and convert to a modern coil on plug or wasted spark ignition system.

www.stinger-performance.com

Also what is the difference between the batch injection injector harness and the sequential? I assume the batch injection harness is just wired to fire multiple injectors at once? Would I be better off buying a kit and making a harness or is it acceptable to just modify the existing one? If I build a harness I’m sure I could sell the old one on eBay but I’m not sure it’s worth the hassle.

Do you think it’s worth switching to electric fans since the Terminator can run them? I know the mechanical fan eats a lot of power. I don’t remember what they said on engine masters when they tested it but I think it was around 50hp. It sounds worth it to me while I’m doing everything else but I’m not sure how much of a hassle it really is.

 

[TheDrZero]

I just ordered almost everything I need I believe. I got the Terminator universal kit, Holley 100PSI fuel pressure sensor, and Holley 2 bar MAP sensor since they’re all on sale right now, $1550 shipped.

Then from rock auto I ordered 6x LS coils and the plug that goes into them to build my coil harness around and a set of plug wires. 6x brand new Borg-Warner injectors for a Crown Vic that were on close out for $10 each. Melling MTF6 cam. GM LS oil pressure sensor. All for $550 shipped.

That leaves me at $2100 invested so far. I’m waiting to hear back about the cam sync kit I posted and recommendation on the injector harness. If I do electric fans I’ll probably try to find them at the junkyard and build a fan shroud.

What am I forgetting about and what else do you recommend? Also will I be able to completely remove my current ECU and engine harness after this or will it still be needed to run anything else? My truck is a base 1995 F150 XL and I think the only option that was added was AC.

 

[pmuller9]

Ok, so a few more questions. I read the parts about the distributor in the link you posted and read the instructions for the Holley DIS linked there. I’m a little confused because the pictures won’t load on the old post anymore. When cutting the vanes off in the distributor, which one do I leave on? Or does it not matter?

Any vane will do. Doesn't matter which one.

Also what about this kit? They say the kit provides “higher resolution” cam signal to allow for sequential injection. Is this used used instead of the 60-2 crank trigger? And if so is it compatible with the Holley? They don’t list Holley as compatible but say it’s compatible with other EFI that can use missing tooth cam signals.

Cam Angle Sensor (CAS) Conversion for TFI Distributor

This kit includes cam angle sensor & billet cap and allows you to ditch the TFI module, stock ignition system/coil, etc. and convert to a modern coil on plug or wasted spark ignition system.

www.stinger-performance.com

It acts like a 12-2 trigger wheel on the crankshaft because it is turning at half the crankshaft speed/rpm.
Since the wheel is rotating at half the crankshaft speed the missing tooth can also be used as the cam sync.
Unfortunately, the Holley EFI products do not support that wheel count at half speed, nor can they interpret the cam sync from the missing tooth.

Also what is the difference between the batch injection injector harness and the sequential? I assume the batch injection harness is just wired to fire multiple injectors at once? Would I be better off buying a kit and making a harness or is it acceptable to just modify the existing one? If I build a harness I’m sure I could sell the old one on eBay but I’m not sure it’s worth the hassle.

The batch harness wires three injectors together while the sequential has a separate wire for each injector.

Do you think it’s worth switching to electric fans since the Terminator can run them? I know the mechanical fan eats a lot of power. I don’t remember what they said on engine masters when they tested it but I think it was around 50hp. It sounds worth it to me while I’m doing everything else but I’m not sure how much of a hassle it really is.

We dyno'd the difference with a 300 six on a chassis dyno at 10 ft lbs and 10 hp at the rear wheels but that is not the whole picture.
The 300 six suffers front extra cylinder wear on # 1 because of cold water inrush.
There only needs to be a 20 degree difference between the top and bottom of the radiator.
Most of the time the fan doesn't need to be on while cruising down the road except on the hottest of days.
During the winter time the fan may not need to run at all except when the vehicle is stopped for a longer period of time.
It's up to you.

 

[TheDrZero]

The Melling MTF6 cam is not a good cam for turbocharging.
It has way too much exhaust duration compared to the intake duration and way too much overlap.
The turbos cams we recommend have less exhaust duration than intake duration.
Why did you order the Melling MTF6 cam??

Because Rock Auto had that one haha. It’s not a big deal, it wasn’t expensive and will be a good upgrade over the stock. If I do end up going with the turbo in about a year I’ll just do the cam again and try to sell this one cheap. If I do the turbo I’ll probably pull the head and have the valves and springs done and do roller rockers and whatever else too.

 

[pmuller9]

Because Rock Auto had that one haha. It’s not a big deal, it wasn’t expensive and will be a good upgrade over the stock. If I do end up going with the turbo in about a year I’ll just do the cam again and try to sell this one cheap. If I do the turbo I’ll probably pull the head and have the valves and springs done and do roller rockers and whatever else too.

When you add the turbocharger, you would send that cam to Schneider and have the exhaust lobe ground to match the intake lobe.

Because that cam has such a high exhaust valve lift, you will need to change the exhaust valve springs, retainers and use .050" uplocks to prevent coil bind and bent pushrods.

 

[TheDrZero]

Any vane will do. Doesn't matter which one.


It acts like a 12-2 trigger wheel on the crankshaft because it is turning at half the crankshaft speed/rpm.
Since the wheel is rotating at half the crankshaft speed the missing tooth can also be used as the cam sync.
Unfortunately, the Holley EFI products do not support that wheel count at half speed, nor can they interpret the cam sync from the missing tooth.

The batch harness wires three injectors together while the sequential has a separate wire for each injector.


We dyno'd the difference with a 300 six on a chassis dyno at 10 ft lbs and 10 hp at the rear wheels but that is not the whole picture.
The 300 six suffers front extra cylinder wear on # 1 because of cold water inrush.
There only needs to be a 20 degree difference between the top and bottom of the radiator.
Most of the time the fan doesn't need to be on while cruising down the road except on the hottest of days.
During the winter time the fan may not need to run at all except when the vehicle is stopped for a longer period of time.
It's up to you.

Ok thanks for the info. That’s unfortunate about the Holley not being compatible with that cam sync kit because it’s pretty slick. So now I need to go ahead and order the pulley and the 60-2 wheel. Any advice on mounting the wheel to the back of the pulley? I see the tolerance for the hall effect is about .015 to .035 and I’m not sure I can get it that well centered by hand without some tips. Is there anything else I need that I don’t have?

 

[TheDrZero]

When you add the turbocharger, you would send that cam to Schneider and have the exhaust lobe ground to match the intake lobe.

Because that cam has such a high exhaust valve lift, you will need to change the exhaust valve springs, retainers and use .050" uplocks to prevent coil bind and bent pushrods.

Oh so that cam already needs new valve springs due to the lift? I thought it was advertised as drop in but I might have read that wrong. In that case maybe I’ll try to cancel that or return it. What cam do you recommend then that would be good now and later? Or should I just go ahead and order valve springs and which ones?

 

[efloth]

FYI You don't have to go through all of this just to run a different cam. The Stock ECU is tunable and can even work with boost. There is a good community and support group over at efidynotuning.com.
If you are interested in exploring this option, I can help answer whatever questions you may have.

 

[TheDrZero]

FYI You don't have to go through all of this just to run a different cam. The Stock ECU is tunable and can even work with boost. There is a good community and support group over at efidynotuning.com.
If you are interested in exploring this option, I can help answer whatever questions you may have.

I had briefly looked into that but I thought the EPA outlawed all the OBD1 tuners? Either way I already ordered the Holley stuff but I’ll check out the website because that’s still cool.

 

[pmuller9]

Oh so that cam already needs new valve springs due to the lift? I thought it was advertised as drop in but I might have read that wrong. In that case maybe I’ll try to cancel that or return it. What cam do you recommend then that would be good now and later? Or should I just go ahead and order valve springs and which ones?

The 1965 to 1984 heads have 4.810" long valves while the 1985 to 1996 heads with pedestal mount rocker arms have shorter 4.750" valves.
The 4.750" long exhaust valve also has a rotator style retainer that uses a very short valve spring and the keeper groove in that valve stem is lower than the groove in the intake valve stem.
What we typically do is use the intake valve spring and intake valve retainer on the exhaust valve and use .050" up locks to move the retainer on the exhaust valve upwards, so it is even with the height of the intake valve retainer.

The Melling cam is a drop in for the 1965 to 1984 engines.

Here is a source for the intake retainers.

55-6179 | QualFast High Performance Retainer

QualFast High Performance Retainers are precision machined and specially designed to work with our high performance springs. NOTE: Priced per retainer. Stem Dia.: 0.343" OD: 1.330" Step 1 Dia.: 0.987" Step 2 Dia.: 0.660" Angle: 7º Material: Chrome Moly Application: FORD L6 300

goodson.com

Here are the .050" up locks

Hardened Locks, 11/32" X 7 Degree, .050" Up Locks, Raises Retainer Higher, Sold in 1/2 Sets

Hardened Locks, 11/32" X 7 Degree, .050" Up Locks, Raises Retainer Higher, Sold in 1/2 Sets

alexsparts.com

 

[pmuller9]

What are you going to use for an exhaust manifold for the turbocharger?

 

[TheDrZero]

What are you going to use for an exhaust manifold for the turbocharger?

I was planning to just use the stock EFI manifolds, they’re basically as good as it gets right? Also, switching to the intake springs on the exhaust side do I need to worry about seat pressure and all that? Or is this not a big enough change to be a concern? And if I’m in there changing springs should I put new intake springs in too just to refresh the 30 year old ones in there?