How to id a 170/ 200/ 250?.... (6 banger Boat pics posted)..

[64 inboard]

Hi all,
.... Ive got a project that may be a little different than your used to. Its a 64 Correct Craft American Skier inboard boat. It currently has what I believe to be an Interceptor Marine (Ford) 170 in it.

Ive been messing with it for a while and have it running pretty smoothly..... ( You should here what she sounds like...cooling water exits with the exhaust...no mufflers.. and underwater.. )

Ive been kinda looking for a "spare" engine to have.."just in case".. and have been told a 250 will bolt in?
My question is.#1-is that true, and any concerns (size,etc)? ..#2-how can I "id" a 250?..

BTW, the engine is a flywheel-forward set-up, where the motor is mounted "backwards" and the trans runs from what was the front of the engine.. The carb is a sidedraft Carter YH..
Any help/suggestions are appreciated! Thanks!

 

[jahearne]

The 250 has a different bell housing that's the same as the 289s; it's also an inch wider and couple of inches taller. You can id a 250 by the four bolt water pump. The heads are about the only thing in common with a 170, but totally different compression ratios and chamber volumes. A 200 should be a direct bolt in. Get the Falcon Performance Handbook with all kinds of great advice for your motor. Mike, ClassicInlines.com, has some great parts for our engines, too; you could potentially get some good performance out of that 170.

Sounds like a real cool boat and interesting project. Got any pictures or videos. I want to see & hear it run! When we going fishin?! I'll buy the bait and beer.

 

[64 inboard]

Thanks for the reply John!
So, it sounds like the "biggest" 6 I can get to "bolt-in" would be a 200? I knew the head would interchange, but didnt know about the bellhousing.
On this boat that would be where the "front" engine mount plate is..

Like I said, the 170s running pretty smoothly right now..just got to get used to the 6. All of my boats in the past had been v8 powered. In fact i almost didnt buy this one because of the six. But after running it all summer , Ive gotten a new appreciation for them! It has an awesome sound and after an evening on the water,I put in 4 or 5 gals of fuel in her.

I will try to post a couple of pics of it...

note: flywheel forward

pic of engine cover/ interior:

here is a pic of the 64 in the water:

As for fishing .. I tell everyone " No worms in my boat"! ...Beer however is a different story!!!!

 

[Funky Cricket]

nice boat.
have any links to larger pics of the engine?

has to be nice, those 6's are smooooooth

 

[jahearne]

No worms - I can respect that. Nice boat! intresting carb.

 

[jamyers]

Nice! I've got a '62 Chris-Craft with the 'flywheel forward' 283 V8, so I know what you mean about backwards engines... they used to do that to get the engine as low and as far back in the hull as possible. I never knew of a US boat maker that used the Ford inline, that's really cool!

How does the boat trans mount, does it bolt direct to the engine? My guess is that the rear engine mount doubles as a timing chain cover, with the tranny bolting to the mount. At least, that's what my 283 does. If that's the case, you'd have to mod or adapt that mount as well as the one on the other end of the engine to get a 250 in there. But like above, a 200 would be a direct bolt in.

If the transmission is driven directly off the crank snout, there is likely a drilled passageway in the nose of the crank back to the #1 main bearing and a drilled-out bolt in the end of the crank. That's how they used to get oil from the engine back to the inside of the tranny gears. (again speaking from C-C experience)

I'm curious about the cooling water routing. I don't see an automotive-type water pump, did they just bolt a plate over the waterpump hole and route raw water into the block through it?

 

[64 inboard]

Here are a few more pics of the engine... The trans does mount to what was the front of the block thru an adapter , much like a Chris Craft's motor:

where I think the "original" auotomotve water pump was (Im not that familiar with this engine) is a fitting coming from a raw water pump that is belt-driven (below the alternator) the hose coming to this pump from below is what supplys river/lake water: you can also just see the nose of the starter above and right of the flywheel

the carb is a Carter YH sidedraft ( this was used to keep it below the engine cover), These carbs were also used on some Corvairs. It is mounted to an "elbow" adapter to get it into a stock intake manifold.

So, is there anything I can "do" to this engine to try and get a few more ponies from her, without breaking the bank? ( Ive got two other projects going also)One thing that I run into with boats, is a lot of aftermarket hi-perf stuff is not "marine grade" (distrbutor, carb, etc)

I do have the little 170 running pretty good for right now, BUT Im always looking/ planning for the future ...

 

[XFlow_Fairlane]

I wonder if you could blow through turbo it? carb would be sealed so no vapor issues. same goes for the fuel pump....infact can I get a closeup of that fuel pump?

 

[64 inboard]

Right now Im running an electric pump mounted just outside of the gas tank...This is the only pic I could find showing the original mech. pump a little closer..

 

[Does10s]

64 Inboard,
That's one cool boat!
Turbo_Fairlane's idea of turbocharging might be a good one, but it would require a bit of work, but it wouldn't be to expensive.
That large exhaust manifold might be able to be used, but you'd have to replace the portion where the water is injected (where the exhaust hose is hooked up). A flange could be made that would bolt to the maniforld and hold the turbo right above the propeller driveshaft "bellhousing".
The cooling water would be injected into the exhaust after the turbo.
The best part would be to use the lake water to go thru a small air-to-water intercooler! Hmmmmm.....
Bring that boat to Tucson and we'll get to work on it!
Later,
Will

 

[64 inboard]

Will, The exhaust manifold is aluminumn and has water passages around it and actually has water running the entire lenght of it. In fact, Im hoping to polish it this winter to give the motor a little more "flash". If you were to turbo it, what carb would be used? How much more HP and at what engine rpm does a turbo run at? .... Tucson? ....Man Im in NW IL ...supposed to be a nice weekend, but talking possible frost next week ..

James , Ive heard of trannys using engine oil, but this looks more like 80-90 gear lube. How does your 'Chris shift ? This has a floor lever and the gas is controled by a "toe-heel" foot pedal.

 

[82F100]

Hey Will,That could be Mike's next project Say another motor like in the 69' in a boat???????Hey we have a time share in Havasu HHHHMMMM!Time to head to the River LOL! 64 Inboard boat looks nice.Talk to AZCoupe, I know he has a customer or 2 with 6's in vintage hydroplanes.

 

[jamyers]

Veddy Interesting... 8) Thanks for the pics!

My CC has the common Paragon transmission, it uses engine oil from the crank snout for lube, and shares a common oilpan with the 283 (it's a huge aluminum casting, and makes oil changes a PITA!) It shifts via a lever coming up through the floor, connected to a long rod and lever on the trans shaft. Very simple setup. Your tranny may well use 80-90 gear lube, there were several different trans makers back then, and yours looks like it well may have seals inside to separate the two cases.

**If you haven't already, look into joining the Antique and Classic Boat Society (ACBS), they're the nicest most helpful folks in the world, along with Ford Inline people. I'll bet that you can get an engine manual that'll tell you more than you ever wanted to know about your engine/tranny.

Cooling - Typically on old marine engines, the water goes from the raw water pump into the exhaust manifold, where it's pre-heated a bit so you're not putting cold water (possibly near-freezing) straight into a warm block. After travelling the length (and sometimes up and back) of the exhaust manifold, it goes into the block at a low point - like where the automotive pump would go (see pic below). *Usually* the water exits the engine at a high point, like the front of the head (to push any air out of the engine), then gets dumped into the exhaust manifold to be mixed with the engine exhaust gasses at the outlet end of the manifold. It looks like your raw water goes to a hose/fitting that's connected to not only the block, but the manifold and a thermostat housing...I can't tell from the pics...and my eyes aren't that great anymore. Looks like an air bleed line coming out of the freeze plug in the forward end of the head, but I'm just guessing...

Back to your original question, I'd be wary of adding a turbocharger, for a couple of reasons (unless you can run water through them?):
* First, the extra heat of a turbine is going to be an issue, and a BIG one in a wooden boat. At the very least, I'd say your backseat passengers will never have to worry about frostbite, lol! At worst you'd have the makings for a one-time wienie-roast at sea.
* Second, if your spent cooling water is actually entering the manifold at the front, it's getting mixed with the exhaust gasses at the rear, but still inside the manifold, and I don't see how you could separate them before the turbo. If that's how the water is routed, you'd need the water inside the manifold to keep it from overheating.
* Remember that the water in the exhaust does two things, it not only help as a muffler (i kid you not...), it cools the exhaust and exhaust pipes (remember the fire thing).

I think the best bang for your buck and the simplest thing to do would be to swap the 170 for a 200. Paint it green and unless somebody ever counts the freeze plugs on the side of the block, they'll never know it's not a 170. The 200 has a very noticeable increase in torque, just the thing for what that boat was made for. If you still want more, then swap carbs to something bigger (I have no idea what'd fit under the engine cover), or if you want it original-appearing, put in a mild cam.

Oh, and be careful with that exhaust manifold, I'll bet they're extremely hard to come by...

Awesome boat, if I didn't say it already!!!

An automotive Ford 170, red arrow points to where the water pump goes.

 

[64 inboard]

Thanks for all the info! Im with you on the turbo.. Im also worriedabout the extra heat. Im not trying to make a race boat out of this ol tug...just trying to get all I can out of what its got!

( For speed/power,Ive got a new, in the crate 300 hp Crusader/velvetdrive combo just waiting for the right hull to come along ...would love to build a wooden-front engine "vintage" hydro type boat)

OK , Im back from my dream... I dont use the boat for skiing very often. I changed from a 12-12 to a 12-13 prop. That lowered my cruising rpm, but lost a little hole shot. Thats why I started asking about a 250 transplant. It sounds like just dropping a 200 in will give me quite a bit more low end torque? I did pick a 200 up last week for 20 bucks.. but will need a rebuild.

Im not after 100 % original..just to look era correct. As for carbs, Ive seen some install an auto-type , without the elbow adapter.. they stick up thru the cover.. yuk.. I already have another spare alum. exhaust manifold to start polishing..(thanks to good ol persistance on ebay )

btw, Im also restoring a 62 wooden "Higgins" ....its getting a "Pacer marine" 283.. flywheel aft , but reverse crank rotation.. Its my first attempt at rebuilding a "backward" rotating engine..a little differnt also.

 

[xctasy]

Does 10's and AZcoupe. Here's your next growth market! It's luv!

I can't think of a better engine for a boat than the 200. It's light and powerfull. The heatsoak from a turbo engine is significant, but the power band is ideal at about 2500 to 3500 rpm, right where a turbo is best.

The heatsoak with 200 hp of 200 Turbo would be the same as 200 hp by any other means, 350 Chev or 302 SBF, GM 3800 or 229/262 V6 or Rover/Buick Olds alloy V8's or our 250 Ford I6 with a big 2-bbl carb. The heat concentration around a turbo 200 is around the turbo, so I recon you could just accomplish a turbo 200 in that boat with a little 8 hour rated gypsum or silver clad coating and some simple ducting. A turbo is real quiet, too!

There isn't an engine made that is as compact as the 200 for its power potential. In NZ, Australia and America, little 200's are the great prospect for a pleasure boat.

Our guys on the Aussie forum like the X-flow 250's, but they are 1.6" taller, way wider, and need a correspondingly much bigger canopy to cover them, and they aren't as smooth as the log head engines. In addition, everyone wants the carbs to be as compact as possible because thet make the engine a huge upstruction. Just a few inches extra, and it becomes difficult to form a tidy box around the larger engine and get to it in an emergency to douse a fire or do some quick diagnostics.

Me, I think the Chamberlin Brothers and Phil Irvings statement in 1979 that the biggest mistake they ever made was not introducing a small six cylinder propriety engine is right on track. Right around that time, the Japanese and Mercury started the worldwide love of little 4 and 2- strokes

Hydro-Racer is the most amazing proponent of orginal I6 here.

http://www.vintagehydroplanes.com/cumonbaby.html

, but there is also Roath and L6, chubs, xrglen, guys on the Aussie forum have had heaps of great hours on lakes and rivers with there I6s. Every thing from little triple DelOrto carb 8400 rpm 144 Falcon engines to big loafing 3500 rpm 250's from Aussie Falcons. Over here, the 265 Hemi engine from Chrylser is the king of inboard Hamilton 2 and 3 stage Jet boats, its cheap, compact, and has more stable power and torque at 3500 rpm than anything its weight.

A 250 could be made to fit with ease.

Its time to set up a 'Boat Anchor' section, and share the wealth, people.

Just look at the photos here of 250 log, 2v , and 250 X-flow engines and the parts made to suit them.

 

[jamyers]

If you rebuild the 200 and swap it in you'll get your hole-shot back, might even be able to go up another step in pitch, the extra torque is that noticeable. I went from a 170 with little 24" tall tires to a 200 with 26.5" tall tires, and I can still start off in 2nd gear without much fuss.

...Its time to set up a 'Boat Anchor' section, and share the wealth, people.

Just look at the photos here of 250 log, 2v , and 250 X-flow engines and the parts made to suit them....

YOW, I'm in love! I'll second a "Boat Anchor section".