hydraulic lifters on a 1961 170

[Brayab]

I purchased a 61 falcon last year. It spun a bearing a couple of months ago, it had been recently rebuilt before I bought it.

I never was able to adjust the valve lash very well. I probably set the carb way too rich to get it to idle and be drivable. It always reeked of gas and got terrible mileage. I think it spun the bearing because the oil would degrade so quickly because of all the gas I was using?

One thing I noticed during the rebuild is that it had hydraulic lifters but the performance handbook (pg 8) says the 61 engine is not plumbed to use these? I could never get the engine to run if I put any preload on the lifters when I was setting the valve lash.

Any ideas? Should I try to find solid lifters?

thanks;
Bray

 

[bubba22349]

are you sure it's a 61 block (casting numbers?)

 

[Brayab]

the block and head numbers are C1DE if I am reading it right that is c for 60s and 1 for 1961?

 

[bubba22349]

Your right that is when the part was designed and or revised to tell the acual year you would also need to find the casting date code this would tell you down to the day it was cast. So it's prob. the org. engine, and as you were wondering the Hyd lifters just won't work in it. Do you know the place that rebuilt it? You will need to find a set of solids for sure but more than likely they used the wrong cam too! You are'nt supose to run solids on a hyd cam (the lobs ramps are differant) and vis versa, if you do it will have a short service life Hate to say it but you will need to pull it apart and find out for sure unless you can find out from them, if they made the mistake they should make it right! Good luck

 

[Brayab]

I spoke to the machine shop/engine builder yesterday...

he swears that any engine will work with hydraulic lifters, he said they regularly put hydraulic lifters in older solid lifter engines?

he also could not understand how it would be plumbed any different (neither do I) : :help:

I give up, I don't know enough about it and I am getting conflicting info.

I guess I will put it back in and continue to get terrible mileage with lousy drive-ability. I will make sure to change the oil much more frequently since it will probably still need to run rich to be usable. I don't want to spin another bearing.

in the mean time I think I will acquire a newer engine and build it as a backup. I would not mind so much if I wasn't into this rebuild for over a thousand bucks and zero performance upgrades!!!!

I can't even figure out where to go to get solid lifters and cam. Anybody know if i can even still get them?

Bray

 

[bubba22349]

I spoke to the machine shop/engine builder yesterday...

he swears that any engine will work with hydraulic lifters, he said they regularly put hydraulic lifters in older solid lifter engines?

he also could not understand how it would be plumbed any different (neither do I)

I give up, I don't know enough about it and I am getting conflicting info.

This is kind of a bad sign but you can probally educate him if he is willing to learn. So here goes the reason you can't use a hyd. cam in an early block is that there are no oil passages drilled to supplly oil pressure to the liffters, the first hyd. cam used in these sixes was in 1963. The 1960 to 62 engines had solid liffter cams and have adjustable rocker arms to set the lash. Early blocks have a stamped code look were the road draft tube bolts on "the boss" a 144 will have a N and a 170 has a T. Though it may be possable to machine the early block to use a hyd. lifter & cam I dought that it would be less money than just swaping it for a solid cam and liffters set and or using a later 1963 up block if you wanted to use the hyd cam setup. Your rebuilder should have access to stock type solid cam and lifters for a 1961 to 62 "170" he probally just ordered a 63 up cam without knowing about the differance. You also could try NAPA or any good auto parts store I would say try to find a older person though some people just can't find things that are not in computer lists. Good Luck, and don't give up this problem can be solved with some work and the right parts.

For a performance type cams go here
http://www.classicinlines.com/products.asp?cat=117

 

[Brayab]

when I told him the block was not plumbed to oil hyd. lifters he said that there was a passageway and that is how solid lifters got oil



this is a pic of the fitting that he was referring to that goes through the lifter area?



this is the block id

 

[bubba22349]

What can I say but that "none are so blind as those who will not see"

These passages will oil the cam bearings but not hyd. lifters (there would need to be a hole drilled all the way through to connect all the lifter bores to an Oil Supply too). If I showed you a picture of the back of my 1928 Model A it also looks very much like that too, you would need to look at the lifter bores and passages of an early and the later block next to each other to be able to tell. Though you can usually run a solid lifter camshaft and lifters in any engine, but it's not so with using a hyd. lifter camshaft and hyd. lifter setup. There just were no hyd. cams and lifters used in the 1961 engine's and the design of the block will not support them so the engine is not going to run right with the wrong parts, the lifters will not pump up and you will be losing lots of the cam lobe lift before the lifter even bottoms out. A solid lifter camshaft and solid lifters is all that will work in those older blocks pick up good repair manual that covers the early Ford Six engines to prove it and to back yourself up. The rebuilder just made a simple mistake lots of people just don't know much about the older engines. As a last resort if they won't do it right, maybe you can ask him to refund you for the cam and lifters and just buy a solid one yourself than it will work just like it was designed too.

 

[100_2023]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I can't find my Performance Handbook. I have a 170 block that had a mechanical lifter cam in it. The casting date is 3L12 on the side of the block. At the flat spot above where the road draft tube enters, it is stamped 3M17A. There is a flat place on the same side of the block near the rear that is stamped PSW17 with a circle around the P. Do you know if this will support a hydraulic cam and lifters? I reached into the lifter bores and there is an oval slot in each hole from the oil galley that runs the length of the block. I am supposing this is what you are referring to for lifter oiling. Thank you.

Darrell

 

[bubba22349]

Right on! You also need the casting number on the block to decode the decade its was made

Is it a C3? this would code to be C for 1960 and the 3 makes 1963 for the first year of design
Than on the date codes
3 = 63
L is the month not able to access my books and files right now though think that may be March or April.
12 is the day of the month

Sounds like it might be a 63 to 64 block if so then yes they could use a hyd. cam and lifters. By your description sounds like its drilled for the Hyd. Lifter Camshaft and Hyd. Lifters I could tell if you have a pic.

 

[100_2023]

Yep, the block was cast on 12 November 1963. The block casting is a C4DE-6015-A. So, it's a late '63 casting for a 1964 model. This means it was not the original engine in my '62 Ranchero. It was a hydraulic cam engine with a mechanical cam and lifters in it. The car was built on 21 Jan 1962. 2R27U140488 VIN. Thank you for your info and help in figuring this out.

Darrell

 

[bubba22349]

Excellant detective work

Casting number C4DE-6015-A there is some other info you can get from this code besides being a 1964 the DE is the car line that engine was first designed for. The 6015 is the generial number Ford asigned for a block no matter what car or truck its in or the size (displacement). The A shows that it's the first version of that block design. Good luck with your Ranchero

 

[Brayab]

I was able to get the original cam and a set of solid lifters from Napa for $140.

I will have a busy weekend taking the old one out and installing the new one and putting it back in the wagon

it has taken so long I hope I remember how it goes back in?????

Bray

 

[bubba22349]

Thats great and glad that you got the right parts now. Soon it will be purring, good luck

 

[Brayab]

finally completed the rebuild and got the engine installed.

it seems much happier, it definitely idles at a lower RPM and I don't run so rich. hopefully my fuel economy will improve.

I changed the oil after a couple hundred miles, no large chunks of metal so far

who needs a cam and hyd lifters: I have one barely used set and one brand new set.....

 

[100_2023]

Glad you got your 170 up and running smoothly again. This 170 has been driving me crazy too. It keeps suprising me. I discovered an interesting thing with it yesterday. I took a late model Duraspark distributor from the 1978 Fairmont 200 that I have and it slipped in the 170 block's distributor hole smoothly all the way to the flange! Now, I thought these 170's had smaller distributor holes in the block and the correspondingly smaller oil pump driveshaft and that you couldn't use the Durasparks in them??? Was I mistaken on that or can I switch over? I was just thinking; might I have one of those 4 main bearing 200's? Wow, I guess I'll have to check the bore diameter, or I guess I could also check the casting numbers on the crankshaft. This thing has turned out to be quite a learning process for me. It's a 170. I measured 3.5" for the bore.

Darrell

 

[bubba22349]

Glad you got the Falcon on the road. Maybe you ought to take it back to engine shop so they can learn something and than they might refund you the cost of the extra parts.

 

[Brayab]

The 170 I have is all stock so I couldn't tell you about the differences

I did buy the The Ford Falcon Six Cylinder Performance Handbook from David and Dennis Schjeldahl

http://www.falcon6handbook.com/default.asp

It was a tremendous help it had all the details about what interchanged with each type. Including the different bore diameters for each generation.

If you don't have this GET IT ASAP it helped a ton and it really gets you thinking about the next upgrades.

Bray