Modifying the Holley HyperSpark distributor 565-315 (made for the "small block") to work with a "big block" Ford 240 six or 300 six (with Holley ECMs)

[Bronctopia]

The knock sensor is the best feature of the stock configuration

So, basically, by reverting to carb on an EFI evolved head YOU had to step in and become the knock sensor!
When you hear rattle, you reduce timing just as the ECU did, but indirectly by pulling the vacuum advance.
Unfortunately, the response lag is rather slow and cumbersome, as it involves pulling over to pop the hood (even more of a PITA when trailering!)
Maybe you could make the human process more time-responsive by adding some sort of vacuum modulating valve on the dash? Then you could pull and restore vacuum to the distributor with the turn of a needle?

 

[Bronctopia]

So why isn’t 63 Sprint with a 192 thermostat having the same problems?

Stock EFI long block with stock cam.
EFI head, DS2 distributor, Holley 390, Offenhauser C and EFI exhaust.
2.42 overall gear ratio in OD.

I would guess compression ratio differences.
Do we know enough about both builds to compare dynamic CR?

 

[pmuller9]

I would guess compression ratio differences.
Do we know enough about both builds to compare dynamic CR?

Frank’s engine has a different camshaft resulting in a very high DCR.
The point is that the EFI head is taking the blame for a bad camshaft selection.
The camshaft needs to be replaced with the custom 270 cam that was specifically designed for the EFI engine.

 

[Frank]

Frank’s engine has a different camshaft resulting in a very high DCR.
The point is that the EFI head is taking the blame for a bad camshaft selection.
The camshaft needs to be replaced with the custom 270 cam that was specifically designed for the EFI engine.

You're right. But it still wants less timing with heat, per the stock table.

 

[PSIG]

Well, with all these apparent issues and back-n-forth, I have decided to commit to development of a programmable digital ignition control for Ford sixes. I would like to set end-of-year for proto units to be out for field-testing. I have set initial plans to allow simple timing control based on rpm and manifold pressure for basic operation, but also option other features such as timing modification based on coolant and intake air temperatures. My intent is for it to operate with any Ford distributor - points (including PerTronix), DuraSpark I or II, and TFI.

I will plan to make many more features optional from rev-limiting to idle speed control to WBO2 data, or any coil type (stock, HE, multi-spark), and will make a list to pick 'n choose for what features you need for a specific purpose. If you don't need something, don't waste time hooking it up — but it will be there if you do. I don't want to over-complicate it with options, so perhaps different level versions (basic, advanced, crazy). Best of all for users (IMO) is that it will be capable of data-logging, so review and analysis can be used for much better and easier tuning. I'll start a new thread for this to be thrashed for Ford six use.

 

[pmuller9]

You're right. But it still wants less timing with heat, per the stock table.

Yes but 63 sprint is not having any problems with his timing curve in the DS2 distributor.
He has no indication of detonation including the usual spark plug evidence.
His engine is producing excellent power and fuel mileage.

This is enough to show that the EFI head can be used with great results with a carburetor and distributor based timing.
A person can use the MSD 6AL Utra Plus (6523) if they want a programable timing curve rather than a fixed mechanical.

For $430 the MSD 6523 features:

• 
  Boost dependent timing control up to 300 kPA (44 PSI / 3 BAR internal sensor) - the ultimate ignition box for moderately boosted vehicles utilizing a blow-through or draw-through carburetor
• Program through the “MSD Ultra 6AL” app or MSDView software via the integrated USB port
• MSD CAN communication for easy connectivity to MSDView using a CAN MSD Hub and Power Grid USB or CAN-USB Bridge 89982 product
• Programmable timing curves in 2D Plots or 3D tables (RPM vs Timing vs MAP Pressure) - You can plot the 3D graph and edit a table 20x20 either from Mobile app (Phone) or from MSDView (laptop)
• Programmable Launch Timing (Seconds vs degrees after launch wire activation)
• Capable to program cylinder selection and start retard without a computer or app for old school racers (like 6425 or 6428 box)
• Mobile app available settings: Step retard value, Launch RPM value, Burnout RPM value, Max (Race) RPM Value
• Programmable Step Retard: On Ramp time, Off Delay, Off Ramp Time, Engine RPM for activation
• Programmable Start Retard through rotary switches: 0, 10, 20 degrees
• Launch, Burnout, and Step Retard activation inputs available. This ignition box has a built-in tri step RPM rev limit
• Alerts and monitors available
• High conversion efficiency ensures minimal heat generation and maximum spark energy output with less current draw from the battery. - (Highly efficient Ignition, minimum heat and max spark energy with less current draw)
• High RPM operation and maximum output using the Blaster HVC, PN 8252 or HVC II, PN 8253
• Powerful capacitive discharge of multiple sparks improves performance
• Consistently high spark energy of 135mJ to 150mJ for every firing, from idle to redline RPM
• Increase spark series duration lasts for 18 of crankshaft rotation
• Easily installs on 4, 6, 8-cylinder engines with distributors
• Operates on most 7 to 28 volt electrical systems
• Fully protected against an open coil, shorted coil & open load
• Quickens throttle response & improves starting
• Tach Output
• Connects to points, magnetic pickups, and Hall/Crank Input distributors on 4,6, and 8-cylinder engines
• High level of security connection from phone to Ignition box (encryption) including sequence in push button implementation
• Maximum programmable retard of 35 degree
• App Available to USA and Canada Customers in English Only

 

[Bronctopia]

Well, with all these apparent issues and back-n-forth, I have decided to commit to development of a programmable digital ignition control for Ford sixes. I would like to set end-of-year for proto units to be out for field-testing. I have set initial plans to allow simple timing control based on rpm and manifold pressure for basic operation, but also option other features such as timing modification based on coolant and intake air temperatures. My intent is for it to operate with any Ford distributor - points (including PerTronix), DuraSpark I or II, and TFI.

I will plan to make many more features optional from rev-limiting to idle speed control to WBO2 data, or any coil type (stock, HE, multi-spark), and will make a list to pick 'n choose for what features you need for a specific purpose. If you don't need something, don't waste time hooking it up — but it will be there if you do. I don't want to over-complicate it with options, so perhaps different level versions (basic, advanced, crazy). Best of all for users (IMO) is that it will be capable of data-logging, so review and analysis can be used for much better and easier tuning. I'll start a new thread for this to be thrashed for Ford six use.

I see that UaEFI (RusEFI) has a 6x6 board (6 sequential fuel, 6 sequential spark).
Was built out for Mazda racing, I think.

Is Open Source on GitHub though, and design interface is Tuner Studio.

Total bare board is $175

 

[Bronctopia]

I see that UaEFI (RusEFI) has a 6x6 board (6 sequential fuel, 6 sequential spark).
Was built out for Mazda racing, I think.

Is Open Source on GitHub though, and design interface is Tuner Studio.

Total bare board is $175

Also, it looks like somebody has already set it up for the PIP window profile in our TFI distributors!

 

[bangstk]

Thanks for your replies.

I just want to eliminate any possible stupidity. I think my max timing is ~36°. Which I think I just pulled out of the air - or maybe some random forum post? Certainly not scientific or authoritative. At full throttle I have to bring it down (maybe 26° ?) so it does not ping.

I am thinking I would like to eliminate the very real possibility that I did something dumb with the rotor phasing and it is "just barely" working. The slot test should make that visible. Maybe I'll get a new cap for daily use and make a cut-out in the current cap -- which is whatever was on the 1988 junk yard disty.

If there is some trouble I should be able to get some idea which way to move the sensor to correct it by seeing which end of the rotor the spark is having to jump from.

Just mark on the distributor body where the cap posts are, turn your engine to 36 BTDC, then take the cap off and see where the rotor is pointing. Do the same with the engine turned to whatever your base/cranking timing is.

If in either position the post is not between the outer tips of the rotor blade (ideally with some margin) that's how you know your rotor phasing will need some massaging.