my spark plugs told me a story

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I went and picked up some NGK platinum spark plugs today. when i changed the old (2 weeks old) NGK V-groove plugs they all had white on them...not a buildup of the ash, but they were all white (except for #5 which was black which i think is a bad piston ring or something)...when i swapped out those V-groove plugs a few weeks ago the old ones were black...the jet is bigger now than what it was a few weks ago, but i coated the lower half of the middle section of my Carter YFA with JB weld (i had ground grooves to assist in fuel air mixture, but i thought that was my origional problem...so if there was some sort of metering jet or something...then i covered it up. Before i JB welded the middle section though i was using the smaller jet, but was going through a heck of a lot of fuel. I had an extremely restricting air filter, so could that have been the cause of extremely bad gas mileage? my gas mileage is quite good now, but i know now that its because i'm running lean, is that also why i have to have my timing retarded so much as well? Its somewhat frustrating, but its running half decent now so I'm not feeling too bad...Is running this lean bad for the engine? thanks for all your help guys.
 
Also...does it make a difference running the platinum plugs in a lean running engine as apposed to the stock v-groove? (platinum being a colder plug) I have the stock poinless distributer and the duraspark ignition with a MSD Blaster coil....the engine doesnt run any different with the platinum plugs...at least not at idle and reving in park. I'm taking it to work tomorrow anways to see if there is a difference...might of been a waste of money..platinum plugs are twice the price.
 
sooo uh...no replys eh...no clues to point me in the right direction? well I'll keep adding to this while i can and maybe something will come up.

The engine smells like its running a bit rich...so i'm really wondering about the lean part of it...ooooo...i just checked the manual and its saying that I'm running too hot, since i dont have the ash deposits...
Would having the timing retarded too much cause it to run too hot?
Also...i used to get awesome performance out of this carb...that was with my first time when it was running way too rich (smelled it but it ran beautifully and pulled nicely too...) I cant seem to be getting that power back and not much has changed...although 1 thing that i know was different is that from then and now i have added the exhaust "system"... full piping all the way back with one of those silencer type mufflers...its new too (but i only paid 13 bucks so i wont regret cutting it off) the thing sileces really good...maybe too good...could it be so restricting that i need my timing retarded (if theres any relation to exhaust backpressure and timing please let me know) I will end up chopping it off anyways tomorrow
so I will know for sure if my major power loss is there. I will be getting a pacemaker single outlet header soon though cause its a good price and it'll still flow better than stock.
 
....the engine doesnt run any different with the platinum plugs

I believe the main reason for the platinum plugs is for durability... or more of an extended change interval.. not so much for performance...

One reason they came about is so that the new car manufacturers can say their cars go 100k miles without a tune-up... not to mention the plugs are pretty damn hard to get to in some new cars!

Although the platinum plugs do tend to have a smaller center electrode.. so they may have a more concentrated spark... probably not enough of a difference to tell in the seat of the pants (aka butt-o-meter).

I actually read once that you shouldn't use platinum plugs on a MSD style ignition (CD capacitive discharge)... I actually called MSD to see if this was BS or what... and the guy I talked to said it wasn't a good idea to run them... I guess the idea is that since the CD box is already amplifying the spark, it may be a little too concentrated with platinums... Although I know there's a lot of people on here running Plat's with an MSD or other box...

I ran some plats with my MSD and it started pinging, changed back to normal plugs (same brand) and the pinging stopped... maybe it varies from app to app...
 
Ok, it's time for spark plug theory 101. In designing a spark plug, the very most critical aspect that the engineers have to consider is controlling the temperature of the center electrode tip (heat range). Too cold; and it won't burn off the deposits, which leads to fouling, Too hot and it will cause pre-ignition. Since engine operating conditions vary widely, heat range requirements also vary by a considerable amount. Platinum plugs had their first significant usage during WW2 in British aircraft engines. The primary advantage of a platinum plug is that it extends (widens) the EFFECTIVE heat range of the plug. It has the ability to act like a colder plug at high speeds, and a hotter plug at low speeds. Remember the critical design features of keeping the deposits burned off while not causing pre-ignition? That plus the increased erosion resistance makes the platinum quite attractive for some applications, especially now with unleaded fuel and modern, clean running EFI systems. Platinum has the ability to utilize a small electrode without deforming under intense heat and pressure, thereby it can run hotter at low speeds to keep the deposits burned off, yet it resists the tendancy to cause pre-ignition under heavy loads. I dunno just why it can do that, you'll have to ask someone smarter than I, but it does work that way. The notion that a platinum plug tip is smaller so it has a more concentrated spark is pure nonsense. The actual size (diameter) of a spark is miniscule, the visible portion of a spark is from the aurora of the ionized particles in the actual current path of the spark, sorta like the glow of a light bulb, only shorter duration. The spark occurs at varying places around the electrode, just pull the plug on your lawn mower, ground it, and pull the starter rope. You can see it quite readily jumping around all over the place. I have no idea why a platinum plug won't work just fine on MSD systems, sounds like more nonsense to me. All that an MSD does is trigger successive sparks. Big deal. One thing that often happens when changing from standard plugs to another type is the EFFECTIVE timing may be altered, requiring a slightly different initial ignition timing. This is not because the spark is faster/slower (pretty much impossible) but because the fire gets lit more (or less) efficiently and the flame propogates differently through the chamber. Remember, all you are doing with a spark plug is lighting a fire. Very quickly. Over and over. As long as you can do that without fouling the plug or causing pre-ignition, it matters not one whit if you use platinum, copper core, resistor, non-resistor, whatever. They all have certain characteristics that make them desireable under different conditions, but don't lose sight of the primary mission of the spark plug. They really are one of the minor marvels of modern engineering.
Joe
 
Thanks for your replys guys...Its been about 3 days with the Platinums in now and this morning it seemed to run rougher longer...it needed to be fulley warmed up before it started running smooth...i dont think its the plug so much since it would have probably done that right away, but i will take out a few plugs and inspect them to make sure. Its pouring down rain right now, and the crappy part is that i cant use the shop since we have a non running van in the way...so i will be taking off my muffler in the rain...getting kinda used to it now. and hows the weather down in the states...still warm? The weather up here is certainly getting colder and the snowline is getting lower...brrrrr
 
still nice here... :lol:

I started running richer when I put in the platinums....

but then I satrted messing with everything to try to correct it...si I have some more tuning to do
 
Placid: The problem(s) you describe sound like a vacuum leak, either in the intake manifold somewhere or under the carb.

LazyJW: the smaller tip of some sparkplugs, like platinums or "fine-wire" plugs, cause a higher plasma field at lower voltages. What this means inside a compressed cylinder is: more consistent firing point for any given coil rise voltage. This works to improve consistency over time. In English, it works like this: a new, conventional sparkplug with nicely-squared center electrode will fire at (x) degrees BTDC with the coil's rising voltage, usually through most of the running RPM range. As soon as the sharp edges of the plug begin to erode, the spark will "look" for the sharpest edge that is closest to the ground electrode and jump from there (electricity is basically lazy, you see...). This process continues until the tip is rounded, then it follows the most conductive path (i.e., the direction with the least gunk buildup) it can find. Now, the electrode is firing at (x+t), a few milliseconds later than before. That's why it's important for the tip to stay clean and square: to keep the timing where it once was.

In fine-wire plugs, the tip is the smallest "edge" that is closest to the ground electrode. It typically erodes AWAY from the ground, by design. This smaller tip causes a focus of the plasma just before the spark leaps into the air, which makes the spark jump slightly sooner than it did with the rounded conventional plug's worn tip. This is why you see an increase in idle RPM when you install fine-wire plugs in place of worn plugs: it has effectively advanced the timing a bit.

Fine-wire plugs don't last long, though, because they have high plasma transfer (i.e., "electrical erosion") to the ground electrode, especially if the ground is a similar kind of metal, and because they are small. Platinum resists this erosion because it's a different metal and because it does not oxidize easily, making things live longer. Dual platinum plugs are aimed at ignition systems that can multi-spark or reverse their polarities (like the newer ones with coils on every plug) because this makes the platinum tend to migrate back and forth from the tip to the ground and back, keeping it "in the system" longer.

I could go on, but as an experienced Engineer, I noticed this is the part where the listener's eyes begin to glaze over.....
 
MarkP":1ezn31oa said:
I could go on, but as an experienced Engineer, I noticed this is the part where the listener's eyes begin to glaze over.....

My eyes haven't glazed over yet, please continue. I feel sorta silly giving ignition advice with guys like you around, but I do the best I can. I'm always willing to learn though.
Joe
 
I'm with Joe. I'm not all that good with electrons, so learning more is a good thing. I like getting good practical knowledge on EE related stuff. I just never got good at the mathematical theory side of it. Keep the tech coming.

--mikey
 
MarkP":2dqrlncn said:
Placid: The problem(s) you describe sound like a vacuum leak, either in the intake manifold somewhere or under the carb.

I wouldnt be surprised actually...I had a fairly similar problem when i did have the vacuum leak...i thought i fixed it, but maybe it was just temporary then...I'll play around with a few more things before i go loooking for the leak though.
 
New News:

I cleaned my NGK V-groove plugs and took out my platinum ones. The platinum plugs were somewhat dirty...not too bad, they were starting to get a little white...but not too bad, they were only in for about 5 days.

I dont know if this little cleanup made any difference but maybe...I have a brass connection distributer cap...the little nubs that cause the spark via the rotor had a little piece of metal sticking off the sides of each nub....this i think would cause the system to act as if the brass nubs were wider than they are supposed to be. i dont know if it makes a difference a whole lot since i did a few other things....but i ground the nubs away and cleaned them with a brass brush. I also put back on my MSD 8mm wires, I had replaced them with Autolite 8.5mm wires just to see if my wires wre origionally causing problems, but there was no difference, so now i have my MSD wires back on as well...i dont think that should make a whole lot of difference either...

all in all i cleaned my NGK V-groove plugs, cleaned up the cap and rotor and put back on my MSD wires... I started it up after doing this, this was the first time my car was started today, so it was the coldest start of the day (the last few days i needed to warm it up for at least 10 min before it even started to idle smooth) and it surprised me...i had my car idleing cold at 500 RPM...it wasnt totaly smooth but i adusted the choke to idle the car at 1000 RPM and it was beautiful...i could rev up the car and everything with no hesitations...thats the way it should be and I am very happy.
 
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