New Turbo Motor: 200 or 250 ?

Howard":2e9uw496 said:
1) Linc is just getting started probing the potetial of his 1bbl 200.

2) Great drag car or road racer, bad grocery getter.

I have been doing some math and I think the change to a 2 bbl is going to make a huge difference.

I'm still having a lot of fun with the 1 bbl and claiming all the braggin' rights that go along with it. I plan to wring it out for whatever it is worth before I swap to 2 holes, though.

My car runs like a total grocery getter.
The engine runs like 100% stock (because it is - DOH!) until I build boost.
It would be totally streetable, even on pump gas, if I left the wastegate at 8 psi.
 
I'll wander happily into the crossfire again. :p

Look at what people race here in Australia, of the Falcon sixes. The 200 is barely used in either form (original small block or the taller-deck destroked 250). The 221 gets (or, had) a good run with 2V head appended to it. That's a motor very similar in weight to the small 200, with the extra 21 cubes.

The 250-2V got a run when newish; people tended to swap on a Holley 500. But it all faded pretty steadily as the alloy-headed crossflows took over. Again, these motors were made in 200 and 250 in³ capacity - but the overbearing preference has been the 250. Yes, it is a little lighter than a US 250, but still heavier than a '66 200 from memory. I've dragged both across the yard and speak from experience, not specific data.

One thing to note about the standard 250 is that fuel economy isn't very good. If you muliplied the mpg of a standard build 302 by (250/302), you'll find it's not the fuel consumption. So people who think it's powerful and economical are generally set to be disappointed.

Quite possibly, this above point could be reasonably addressed with a 2V head and EFI (non TBI). But that's a lot of legwork, and some new ground also. But if you're looking for a manageable package (and this is within budget) it may be a longer-term plan.

A final note on the formulas. Not decrying them, but they are approximations, designed to work with a majority of cases to provide a near-enough result. Look at a similar example. You take a Stradivarius violin. Measure the size, thickness, density etc of all the pieces, and build a replica. It looks perfect - how does it sound? Well, there's a good chance the sound will be passable but not a patch on the original. The reason being that the parameters chosen did not include all of the pertinent detail - just like some of the above general formulae.

So, while not ignoring the number crunching, be willing to "go against the grain". If 60% of marriages end in divorce, why does anyone get married? Same deal. ;)

Cheers, Adam.
 
addo":1hifhcer said:
One thing to note about the standard 250 is that fuel economy isn't very good. .

Completely forgot about that one. A friend had a '73 Maverick with a 250 when I was running my 170 Maverick. I almost got twice as good of mileage than him, I was getting 26-27 MPG (3 on tree, 3.00 gears in a 8")

I don't know what gears he had , but his was automatic and he never got any better than 17-18 MPG.
 
What a brilliant argument you guys have got going here. A question though, has anybody in Australia found some good factory production turbos that could be used in a 200 turbo project? I am trying to use factory parts because I want to keep costs for the turbo build down if I can. The reason behind the 200ci is not really for technical reasons it just happens to be the engine in my car. I do find it revs better than my dads 250 though. Could an advantage be for the 200 that you can run to higher rpm under boost (ie see 6000rpm)then a 250(more like 4500-5000rpm)? This may help cut a gear shift out of the quarter mile producing better times.
 
73GreenMachine":1g5mcy14 said:
has anybody in Australia found some good factory production turbos that could be used in a 200 turbo project?

You could source them from most any petrol engine in the 2.5 to 4 liter range, and diesels from 5 to 6 liters should be close. Does that help?
 
On the comment of a TO4...


so far it looks like I am the only one running a T3 turbo (.63/.60) I only plan on a pump gas (like CHEAP pump gas) with my 7.5:1 compression. withthe stock 8psi of boost I really don't see how I should have many problems. my airflow should be low enough to not max out the compressor and the log manifold will have enough looses that it will take some energy out of the exhaust so that I hopefully don't overpower the stock integral wastegate.
 
turbo_fairlane_200":3m1ruk0u said:
I hopefully don't overpower the stock integral wastegate.

I think you'll be just fine, but maybe not on 87 octane. you'll have to play with it.

Import Killer (don't hear much from him anymore) ran a T-3 from a 3.8 liter Buick.
 
turbo_fairlane_200":308m3ifl said:
On the comment of a TO4...


so far it looks like I am the only one running a T3 turbo.

No sir, I also have the T3 "super 60", .48 turbine housing. As soon as I get my head back (been to a total of 3 machinists and that started back in July, and the last one has had it for going on 6 weeks). But what can I do...patience has its virtues. So hopefully come November I get to sort the tuning bugs out. Without the head one can only go so far with the build-up...cannot j-pipe, no run fuel lines, no oil lines, cannot mount turbo, carb, inlet piping, etc... Other than that, everything is done that I know of. I guess I could put the tranny and transfercase together and mount it on the transmission jack and have it ready to stab when the engine goes back in...well there 25 minutes to work on it, I guess better than none. Sorry had to vent, it is really bad when you have told everyone that you are going to turbo the six (like since back in Dec., 2004) and they keep asking are you done yet. Should have kept my mouth shut! Thanks fellers for the vent.

Kirk
 
Kirk, I'll be travelling to Houston (through Navavsota) sometime soon, so if you need a spare haed to mock up with let me know and we'll meet up. PM me with your number/contact info. it is a E1xx head ('82 stang)
 
I think the .48 might be a little small for a six.

ah but I got you there.....mine IS running....er was until I pulled my carb last night.
 
Here we go:

I've received a larger response from this than I'd ever hoped, and it has been educational.

I have decided to go with the 250.

Having been in the bent block crowd for so long, the six in the convertible might have been traded to a 302. But the light engine and power steering combine to make the car as agile as a go-kart. So I started thinking of ways to get throttle response.

The old school tricks with headers and carbs just didn't seem to be enough to me. Then it hit me about the European approach to turbocharging. It sounded good, but had anyone ever done it?

Then I found you guy's. Thank's to you all !

The V8 guy's are paying anywhere from $1100 and up to gain @ 50 cubes.

If you could get that for free, wouldn't you?

I just read about Linc's problems putting a V8 trans in his car and had to think about that for a little while.

If he could have an adapter plate for free, would he ?

These two things alone have helped me to decide, even with the obstacles left to face me. It just makes too much sense, especially since I've already got the engine. I hope that someone out there has done this swap into a "67 Mustang. It would be nice to share their experience. I will have to get the motor together first, as this is my daily driver right now. I plan to break it down and clean, inspect and replace parts as required. I have ported heads before, so that will be done as well. I think I'll go with the 1946 Holley to start and go from there.

By the way, I checked out a Maverick/Comet forum yesterday. They all seem to be V8 fans. If anyone is looking for a 250 this could be a good source. I plan to use it to find my brackets.

Any suggestions from this point will be appreciated.
 
Thank's Linc's ! Been there, done that ! Sorry to see the block mod's didn't work like they're supposed to. I'll bet your fine though. At least till you get in the 10's !!
 
I'll take the bell and have extra material welded to it, then machined for the two extra holes, when I do the next tear down and build up.
 
In other threads we have touched on this topic (fitting a 250)
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24834
In the near future I want to make a jig so I can get real measurements and potentially make my own frame/motor mounts that have the same dimensions as the '69/'70 units. You were wondering if anybody else had this conundrum.. I almost did. I have a '67 that originally had a 200/C4 but when I bought it both were gone. But I happened to have a '77 250 and a few V8 transmissions (C4 and AOD) but no bell/torque converter for the 200 so my decision was based on items at hand. And then later I found another 250 for $75 (complete) and I have a spare '74 250 head from a maverick. Pretty easy for me to get sorted use what I got :LOL: I have one class left before the BS in CS is complete and with a FT job my free time is non existant. Maybe next semester I will start making progress (I hope). The first order of business is to get one of the 250's installed with a C4 and drive it. Then go through the other for a performance build (all motor) and drive it with a C4 and an automagic. Hopefully swap the head on the 'all motor' to a direct mounted 2v. Swap the trans to the AOD while gathering parts to put together a turbo 250.. This side bar was just to let you know your not the only one with battles about which way to go. One last thing, the 240/300 can be 'convinced' to fit also :LOL:
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27410
-ron

-ron
 
turbo_fairlane_200":2vmjmom2 said:
ah but I got you there.....mine IS running....er was until I pulled my carb last night.

I know, I know, rub it in why don't ya, ha-ha.

Yeah that is what I was thinking about the .48, but we will just have to see. The math calculations on the compressor map work out @ 4500rpm I am still in the 74% range at only 8psi, and still if I go higher on the psi (up to 15 psi). I can always change to the .63, that is what is good about the "super 60". Believe me y'all will be the first to know. Later.

Kirk
 
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