Odd Build Idea

[170-3tree]

Sometime in the next few semesters I will be required to take a class at the college that allows me full access to a machine shop. Talking to the instructor of this class I also learned that he will let the students take on their own projects if they so desire. At first I didn't think I would do anything due to lack of funds, but now I see that I have a while to amass parts and plan things out.

I want to make an engine with MPG's in mind which seemed simple enough at first until I started researching things about the internals on these engines. I also want to be able to have the power when needed like getting up to highway speed. I'm not sure what my base engine will be, but it seems most likely that it will be the 170 that just got rebuilt since I cannot find a 200 around here and It would be a shame to completely trash the work put into that engine.
My ideas are based primarily on the idea that increases in power through efficiency will also increase the mpg's.

As anyone I am open to suggestions, but so far my ideas include:
1. do a port and polish on the head (as complete as physically possible)
2. Increase the valve size with new springs and probably a fairly modest cam.
3. I'd like to raise the compression ratio to about the point where i'd need mid grade gas (89 octane) by decking the block
4. a very new idea to me: knife edging the crank balancers and balancing the rotating assembly.

I'd like to keep the exterior looking stock with the exception of a header, but I am entirely undecided on what carb to use. From the sounds of it I am divided between keeping the stock head and putting a vaporizer, which leaves me the ability to not mess with the distributor hole and duraspark II, or a weber 32/36, which would require a distributor without the loadomatic issue.
Like I said I am unsure if my idea will work at all, but I am very open to suggestions.
.Thanks in advance

 

[rbohm]

8) not a bad choice going with a 170 actually, though you do give up 30ci. start by deciding what rpm range you are going to run the engine in about 80% of the time, then select a cam that works in that rpm range. in this case figure about 1500-5000 rpm. classicinlines has a few good cams for this, i prefer a dual pattern cam that favors the exhaust side since the ports on our engines are as small as they are.

as for porting the head, do what you can, mostly the bowls on the intake side, and open p the exhaust side a bit. as for polishing, dont polish the ports, but do polish the combustion chambers. for the street polishing the ports is a waste of time and you actually lose a bit of power. polishing the combustion chambers though reduces the surface area, and reflects the combustion heat back into the chamber which will gain you a bit of power.

as for the compression ratio, i say get it to about 9 or 9.5:1 and trick the engine into thinking it has more by using a 112 degree lobe center cam. this way you get the power increase you are looking for, and you get to use 87 octane and save about 10 cents per gallon.

for ignition use one of the many electronic ignition systems available. classicinlines has a few, and you can check out www.gofastforless.com for more ignition ideas.

for the fuel system, rather than a carb, why not and efi system? think about this;

get three tempo efi throttle bodies, and set them up like you would a triple carb system. use a megasquirt controller which you can build yourself to save money if you like. check out these sites for more information;

http://www.msefi.com/index.php?sid=fa5f ... d7fa782e72
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
http://www.diyautotune.com/

knife`edging the`crank will help a little by reducing parasitic drag, but dont expect much increase overall, 3-5hp at best.

for valve sizes, i suggest using a 1.75in/1.50ex valve. these are about as large as you want to go.

while balancing the rotating assembly wont get you any power or efficiency increases, it will increase longevity and is worth the effort.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy 170:

What is the casting code of the head you will be working with? I noticed in your footnotes that you list a '63 Fairlane. Is this the head and block you will be working with? Have you done any disassembly yet? FYI- the '63 (D3DE) head casting have the smallest intake and exhaust valves ever used in a 170 @1.52" I, 1.266" e. These castings also have less intake tract volume than later heads. For economy these are not necessarily bad, as it helps to keep up velocity and vacuum. If I understand your goal, it is to make the most of what you have in terms of fuel economy, by utilizing your access to the machine shop.

Also know that a '63 block casting will not accept a distributor upgrade because of a smaller access hole in the block and oil pump driveshaft. CIs DUI HEI conversions are available for the early blocks but the price makes them out-of-line with your goal.

Also, the cams that CI lists will not be appropiate for a small displacement, economy engine.

For economy, a Holley/Weber conversion is hard to beat, but you would have to deal with the LoM issues. For economy a good running Autolite 1100 with a 1.1 venturi might not be a bad choice along with a LoM with a Petronix conversion. My 1st step would be to determine which block I'm working with, then consider my options.

What do you think?

Adios, David

 

[170-3tree]

I would honestly like to stay away from the EFI thing. I have an impala that gets around 36 hwy. This is kind of supposed to be a strictly internal alteration where in I would just like to make the engine as efficient as physically possible then tune in a carb, ignition (already have ignitor II setup), and exhaust. I guess what i'm trying to avoid is giving up my current 23mpg figures for performance, but also gain some performance. I'd like to squeeze every bit out of what i have rather than just throwing more fuel into the engine and hoping for a bigger bang in there. I want to make the bang it currently produces be as efficient as possible. I do run highway about 70% of the time living in a small town where everything is twenty miles away at least. Is there anything in the way of a one barrel type efi system anyway? or would it have to be opening up the log?
Like I said this is odd, but the instructor of this class wants us to focus on efficiency inside the head and engine before ignition and exhaust or he's have a class full of kids making headers for their little civics and tonka trucks.

I like being unique and different or the car would have a 289 in it to make my dad happy. I just want to experiment and see what i can get out of the car with minimal external upgrades.

The engine is all numbers matching and includes hydralic valves with adj rockers.
I understand all the LoM SCV issues which is why i shy away from that conversion. I also understand that Pony offers the SCV equipped modified carbs.
I will be able to use the dyno at the college for free to see if I actually get any significant increases following the rebuild. I' have my goals in mind I just need the last peices to get it rolling.

 

[early ford fan]

[Also know that a '63 block casting will not accept a distributor upgrade because of a smaller access hole in the block and oil pump driveshaft. CIs DUI HEI conversions are available for the early blocks but the price makes them out-of-line with your goal.

anyone ever tryed to bore the hole in the 170 block out to the larger size while its at the machine shop?

 

[170-3tree]

I see a lot of pluses to getting a little later engine except my lack of will to be forced into the transmission swap earlier than planned.I want to do a t-5 in the future, but it isn't in my budget yet.

 

['68falconohio]

I have a 200ci, C4, 2.83:1 rearend, DUI, weber, and cam with 208* @ 0.050 duration w/.420" lift and 111* LSA. With the cam degreed in 4* advanced, 60-70mph feels really free and smooth(~2200-2600rpm)

EDIT, what I forgot to say is PM me if you're interested in a H/W 5200 I bought from Stovebolt.


What I wouldn't give for some free dyno time when I get my engine done is a small list.

 

[powerband]

This is my .02 :::



MPG consciousness was a dominating factor in my re-build of my DD - '63. It had a wheezy but reliable original 170/3spd. Engine was replaced with a tight '71 C8xx 170 which adapts to later trannys easily.. To keep up the mileage, installed new timing set but stock cam, DSI electronic dizzy, H/W 5200 progressive 2bbl , and most importantly Overdrive tranny. Most six cars have the pre-Interstate driving 3.50 rear. with the T5 OD there is no problem cruising wiith modern traffic with the tweaked 170. Has radical built hi-compression D8xx cylinder head (kudos=Schejhldal bros ! .). Oversize valves, matched 48cc chambers, steel shim head gasket = over 9.5:1CR ( 92 Octane best 8) ), long tube Hooker dual outs ...


All the contributing aspects of the build were to allow for the fun of "sleeper" performance while maximizing "commuter" MPG by exploiting the low rpm torque curve of the ford small six.



Powerband



(THUMBS)

 

[rbohm]

8) i can understand not going the efi route, except that you want to maximize efficiency. the nice thing about the tempo throttle bodies and the megasquirt system is that with a little creativity you can make it look like three carbs until the air cleaners come off. and the reason for three throttle bodies is for tighter control over the fuel mixture, as well as more even fuel mixtures in each cylinder. and yes a single throttle body can be made to work nicely if you choose. the other thing about the three throttle bodies is that it looks wilder than a 2bbl carb does. the efo when tuned right will bump your fuel economy up some what as well.

 

[170-3tree]

Where might one aquire a one barrel type throttle body injection unit?

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Back 170 and all:

I'd still be curious to know the casting code on the head. If it's a '63 are you sure that it has hydraulic lifters? Are you planning on rebuilding the whole engine? or just doing the head? If I had access to a chassis dyno I'd be making plans to do a before/baseline run to establish a starting point for comparison to after. Another thought- If this car is your daily driver, you might want to consider finding a later '65 to '72 170 head to work on. When it's ready all that is left is removing the original head and adding the new one. This requires much less down time and it's only slightly more expensive. This later head will still have 52 cc chambers, but will have 1.64" intake valves and 1.38" exhaust valves. The later head will also be less prone to break off exhaust bolt ears and cracking. You should also be looking for an OEM steel shim head gasket if you're only rebuilding the head. THe shim gaskets are no longer available from FoMoCo or a parts house, but can still be found NOS. Check the "For Sale" section on this forum.

YOur greatest gain in porting will be found one inch either side of the valve seats. Blending of the bowls, back-cutting a 30 degree angle on the intake valves, and smoothing the inside radius of any corner in the port will yield gains. Using the highest compression ratio you can manage is also a boon to MPG. The small bore diameter of a 170 is a plus, along with smoothing, polishing and radiusing any sharp edges in the chambers. A strong spark and tight quench will also help. A header is neither necessary or cost efficient in this case. While back-pressure is not a good thing, neither is too much scavanging when it comes to economy. A header is essential in higher rpm performance, but that's not your goal. I'd suggest a modified '68 exhaust manifold with the outlet opened to a full 2" and the ports from the head shaped to facilitate flow. The heat and mass of the log type exhaust manifold has some advantages in holding heat, pre-heating the carb as well as a source for pre-heating air to the carb. Add a 2" tail pipe and muffler and you will have a compatible system.

What is your timeline?

Keep the details coming.

Adios, David

Finally, whatever induction you choose to use, an accurate tune-up may be as significant as anything else you could do in pursuit of mileage.

 

[early ford fan]

. I'm not sure what my base engine will be, but it seems most likely that it will be the 170 that just got rebuilt since I cannot find a 200 around here and It would be a shame to completely trash the work put into that engine.

i see 200s on craigslist where i live about once a week.i was supposed to go get one and a c4 tomorrow but its going to rain.

 

[170-3tree]

I have found a few 78 200's, but that's about it and that would require the tranny swap for sure. Other than that people wont part these cars out and I only have room for the engine. It is one of the rare blocks with hydraulic lifters and adjustable valves. I don't remember the cast code, but it is the engine what the factory put in it

 

[wallaka]

Where might one aquire a one barrel type throttle body injection unit?

Early Ford Tempos with the HSC engine...which was basically a 200 with 2 cylinders cut off.

 

[69.5Mav]

Where might one aquire a one barrel type throttle body injection unit?

Moe did a long post on this subject you might find interesting.

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=38349

Above is the link.

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Back 170 and All:

Finding and adapting a one barrel throttle body is fairly easy. Finding and adapting the electronic brain to get it to work into a 46 year old system is a bit more challenging. It's still a good idea, just not an inexpensive or simple one or done in the machine shop class.

170- I still perplexed by your belief that a '63 OEM engine will have plumbing for hydraulic lifters. With FoMoCO and 40 plus engines, I try hard to say it never happened, but, if yours is an original '63 170 with hydraulic cam and lifters, it is indeed very rare. Adjustible rocker arms were standard on 170 through '65 and common after that- even on engines with hydraulic lifters.

So, based on your last post can I assume that you will be working on the head from your '63 Fairlane for your machining class? And that the goal is to maximize it's efficiency, through machining, to achieve the best mileage possible? I just want to be clear so that I can offer accurate, useful suggestions and advice.

Adios, David

 

[170-3tree]

I believe the falcon handbook says a few things on the matter. Of hydraulic cams in 63.

That is the basis for my build. Then a mild cam to use that efficiency and the pony carb for better running and a header. I have pertronics two set up already and I run a rebuilt generator so I don't think the electrical will handle tbi

Idea being efficient power

 

[rbohm]

8) david it is possible that he has a late 63 production 170, that ford did a running change on the production line. i believe that my 64 falcon has hydraulic lifters, and it is a very early production 64(sold in oct 63, likely built in mid sept 63).

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Back All:

Yes, it is possible, just very rare and worth verifying before getting too far along in planning and cam selection. It may also be helpful in unlocking the mystery of these change-over years to know the casting code and suffixes. At this point the C3DE block castings are a bit of a mystery.

Adios, David

 

[170-3tree]

The head is cast C3DE 6090-D and the block is cast C3DE 6015-E.
The engine looked as though i was the second person to break it open and there is an overhaul sheet that the lady gave me from the machine shop. At 105k Mi it had head work and a minimal cylinder hone with new hydralic lifters (oe) and that's about it the odometer showed about 98000 when i broke into it meaning it has about 202k on it now.
Like I said I just rebuilt the engine now I have the option to find a new one and trashing a perfectly good engine or making the one I have just a bit better and more efficient. The lifters are hydralic and work like they should so i believe that meants it's plumbed for them.
The information that came with the car is VERY thorough including everything short of oil change receipts and other basic tune ups.