Oil in Combustion Chamber?

[63FuturaRag]

I recently had a rebuilt 200 and a C4 installed in a 63 Falcon. This install has not gone well. In a recent post, I blamed the timing, but now I am not sure. When I pulled the spark plugs to rotate the crank for timing, I noticed for the first time the plugs had a black oily substance on them. Besides a bad head gasket or a cracked block, could there be other reasons for this? The original engine, a 170, did not have a PCV system, it had a road draft tube, which worked just fine, even though it did leak a little. When I got the car back from the mechanic with the new 200, I noticed it did not have a road draft tube, it had a PCV valve in the valve cover with a hose running from it to the carb spacer. Is this right? Could this cause oil to be sucked into the intake from the valve cover?

 

[fordconvert]

That pcv setup sounds correct. There should be a valve at the end of the hose in the valve cover. The valve does two things. First thing is it acts as a check valve so if there is a backfire it does not blow flames into the engine. Second thing it does is acts as a restriction. Other than physical shape and connections the difference in the models is how much they flow. If the system was sucking too much it would be a vacuum leak and cause running problems. I suppose it could also suck oil into the intake if there was no valve or baffle(s).

 

[JackFish]

Check the vacuum line from the transmission. Bad modulator can suck fluids up into the intake, I think.

 

[mach1 mark]

Black oily plugs, sounds like the car is running way rich, or the timing is off. Do a compression check on the cylinders. If they are low you could have "blow by" the rings. If this is the case either the rings didn't seat right or they could be broke.

 

[fmartin_gila]

Keep in mind that it does take some run-in time for the rings to seal. During the break-in period, there will be some excess blowby in the crankcase and into the pcv system and so into the intake. This should gradually diminish as the new parts begin to run in.

Fred

 

[rbohm]

8) fred is right, likely the place that rebuilt the engine used chrome faced rings, and they take time to break in and seal properly. check the plugs again in about 1000 miles.

 

[JackFish]

Is this a fresh rebuild? Has the motor run at all, or is it not even broken in?
If that's the case then yeah the rings aren't set and what you see is to be expected.
Was the head rebuilt with new valve seals? What was done to the bottom end?

 

[63FuturaRag]

I will try to answer these questions and add my remarks in the order they were posted.

1) The PCV valve is new, as well as everything else under the hood. I have not owned a 200 before and I did not know if the PCV hook up sounded correct. Also, the oil cap is vented, I believe the mechanic just used the one from my old 170. I have another one that is not vented, if you think I should use that one.

2) I will replace the C4 vacuum modulator. I intended to do this anyway. However that oil is red. Would it turn black in the firing chamber?

3) I am still working on the timing. I think I have the distributor seated in the right tooth. The car does start after about 2 or 3 minutes, and almost a dead battery, but runs way too rough to idle. The alternator does recharge the battery after a minute or so. Electrical appears to be sound. Carb was set on a running 200 by Pony before shipping, and settings were adjusted there for a 200. Entire gas system is new, I checked gas flow before hooking up the fuel line to the carb. I believe system is getting plenty of gas.

4) The remainder of the q's deal with the rebuild. I don't know what material the rings are made of, but the rebuild was guaranteed by a Washington state company. That should tell you who it is. They have treated me well, and I do not wish to bring a company name into this. The head was rebuilt with the same warranty and with hardened seats, 3-point angle style. The block is a 1965 model, and the head is a 1966. I cannot keep it running well enough to break it in, beacause it runs way too rough. In other words, I cannot drive the car. I know that it needs a break in period, but just can't figure out how to do that. I don't know how to do a compression test and don't have any equipment to do that. Each spark plug is firing.

 

[sixpony]

With a fresh rebuild,good fuel and correct spark it shouldn't take that long to start, if the modulator valve is bad burnt trans fluid would be black and it would also foul the plugs quickly, you can remove the line at the trans and plug it to tell if your problem is there. Also check for vacuum leaks elsewhere such as an open port, cracked line or such. Try some fresh plugs and make sure you have the distributor wiring (firing order) right, no offense but this is an easy mistake for anyone to make, when it starts ,get a timing light on it and get it close to where it should be with the dist vacuum line removed and plugged, this also removes the vacuum can on the distributor as a possible leak. By the way what kind of ignition are you using, original points type or electronic?

 

[fordconvert]

The oil cap should have some sort of filter in it or a hose that leads to the inside of the air cleaner.

 

[Frankenstang]

Black oily plugs, sounds like the car is running way rich, or the timing is off.

I think this is a real possiblility....way too rich. I had one of the brand new Pony carbs do this to me. Problem with the float caused it to hang and prevent the needle valve from seating and stopping fuel flow to the bowl, causing the bowl to overfill and a very rich running condition. The black, wet condition of the plugs (carbon and unburned fuel) could be a sure sign of this. Do you smell alot of gas in the engine compartment when trying to start it? Are you getting any carbon/black debri at the tailpipe? Any noticeable fuel anywhere around the carb?

When my started flooding you could see fuel seeping out of the carburetor around the throttle shaft/at the base...I'd inspect carefully for too much fuel.

It's obviously very important to get the timing set correctly and check for vacuum leaks as others have mentioned. Timing is best set with a vacuum gauge, but that is difficult to do when you can't keep it running at a normal idle. Timing light will get you in the ball park for now. I'd set it from 8*-12* btdc (where it runs best...or less bad...but should be in that range) with the vacuum advance line disconnected and plugged.
Good luck!

 

[addo]

We don't have a great deal of certainty on that timing/firing issue.

In a case like this, it's worth carefully pulling the valve cover off. Rotate the motor until the first two valves are evidently both closed and the timing pointer is at 10° before the zero mark (ie; slightly counterclockwise of the zero) on its sawtooth scale. It's easy to see which part of the cycle you are on as lightly "rocking" the crank pulley on the incorrect cycle will show slight movement of the valves.

At this point, with a mechanical distributor you remove the cap/rotor and turn the ignition on. Remove the hold-down bolt and stretch the coil lead over to where you can see it. Carefully turn the distributor either way until you see a nice fat spark from the coil lead. Now stop and tighten its hold-down bolt.

Fit the rotor and note where it is pointing on the distributor housing. Make a small dot there with permanent marker or white-out. Install the cap and observe which socket is closest to this dot - one ought be very near. This is #1 plug lead.

Then follow the firing order clockwise in fitting your leads - it rotates in the opposite direction to Ford's V-8 distributors. Refit the valve cover, and gently snug up its bolts. If necessary, check the points gap, but using a dwell meter is more accurate.

If the carb is any good and all wiring up to snuff, it will fire and run.

 

[mach1 mark]

I have to agree with addo, after making sure that the dizzy is correct; check the timing. One thought is if you have installed a bigger cam like a 272 your timing is way off from a stock cam. I had to set chalks in front of the front wheels and put the thing in drive, I then turned the dizzy until it was idealing better. You might find that the timing is at 22 or 30 tdc. After it ideals better then you can check with a vacuum gauge. Try a few of these things we suggest and see what happens, ask more questions, we will be here.

 

[63FuturaRag]

I really appreciate all the responses. I will try to reply in general to all the posts.
-I could not remove the C4 modulator from underneath. The lip of the pan and the oil line were both in the way. It looked shiny and new, however, so I'm not too worried. I remember telling the guy who installed the trans to put a new one on. I was able to replace the vacuum line from mod to intake though. Old line was clean.
-I replaced a leaky steel vacuum line from dist to carb with new fittings and a hose. This helped a little.
-There is no PCV port on my air cleaner because it is new and is not original for a 200. Would you say I could get an oil cap with a PCV spout and connect it to the PCV valve at the rear of the valve cover? The PCV hose did have some oily black substance in it, so I removed it from the carb spacer and plugged the hole.
- Doing these 3 things allowed me to start the car, although it is way too rough to idle and I am paranoid about running it for long with the gas pedal at 2/3.
-I am not totally convinced that the carb is running perfectly, as far as idle mixture screw is concerned. The fuel mixture is good, not black, and there is no smell of gas coming from the engine compartment other than a normal smell. The carb is not leaking anywhere, and there is no black smoke coming from the tailpipe. I had this problem before and I'm hip to that. I have had an idle mixture problem before, but I can't remember how I fixed it.
-I am still convinced that the timing is off. I will follow addo's advice and remove the valve cover to close the valves for no. 1. It is the stock mechanical dist. Addo, are you telling me that both valves will be closed at 2 different times during 1 full turn of the crank but only one of them is correct? How do I nail this down?

 

[sixpony]

With the valve cover removed align the timing marks, if both valves on #1 are closed, you have tdc, if the exhaust valve is open then you are on the exhaust stroke and you need to rotate 360 and align the marks again, both valves should now be closed and you should have top dead center. Often its the little things that trip us up, double check point gap, dist cap even if its new it could have been cracked by accident somewhere along the way, when an engine runs so rough that it won't idle and theres no black smoke to indicate flooding it sounds like a vacuum or ignition problem, I once had a cheby v8 (excuse my language) with a dead miss because I got ham handed and gapped a plug to zero during installation. And make sure those plugs are firing, I've seen plugs refuse to fire after they had been fouled no matter how much you cleaned them. Good luck.

 

[69.5Mav]

Please don't be insulted here but I'm going to return to basics here so bear with me.

First remove the Valve cover, spark plugs, distributer cap (mark the distributer with the number one plug position) and the coil wire going to the points.

Next get a tail light bulb and solder a wire to the 5 watt contact and to the brass case.

Next connect one wire to the points wire (alligator clips work great for this, Radio Shack sell them, with wires attached if you want) and the other tail light bulb wire to the positive of the battery. Be careful not to short the battery to ground.

Next observe the valves wile rotating the engine:

At the end of the number one cylinder's power stroke you will be at Bottom Dead Center (BDC) as you continue to rotate the engine the piston will rise in the bore and the exhaust valve will open, this is the valve located all most in line with the exhaust manifold port on the number one cylinder, as the piston nears Top Dead Center (TDC) the exhaust valve will close and at TDC the intake valve will open. As the piston nears BDC the intake valve will close and the piston will again rise compressing the fuel air mixture if it were there, we removed the spark plug. As the piston nears TDC the tail light bulb will light as the points just open and the distributer rotor should be pointed at the number one plug mark you made on the distributer. Also now would be a good time to check the Balancer timing mark lines up. If it is not within 5 degrees your balancer may have slipped.

Next if you believe your balancer is correct rotate the engine to 6 degrees before TDC loosen the distributer hold down bolt and rotate the distributer until the light just comes on then tighten the distributer hold down bolt.

This should get you close to correct timing and check for distributor inserted several teeth off and a slipped balancer.

Good luck

 

[63FuturaRag]

Thanks, again everyone. I am checking with the engine rebuilder to see if everything was stock or modified. He should have a list in his computer file. I can swap out to a stock cam and push rods if necessary.

Again, all plugs and points are gapped correctly and have been rechecked with every attempt I make at timing (4 times now). Dist. cap and rotor are not brand new, but fairly new. They were taken from my 170 which was running perfectly before I made the switch to the 200. Carb is behaving properly, fuel-air mixture is good, and the choke plate closes and opens when it is supposed to. As I previously mentioned, I switched out the steel vacuum line with a hose, and that is much better. You can stop asking me over and over to check these things. I know from whence thou cometh, sayeth the Clapton.

For my own peace of mind, I may have to drain the water and oil, take off the radiator, fan, pulley and timing cover just to make sure that I know the timing marks on the gears are lined up. It would shock me if they weren't, but stranger things have happened. At that point I could turn the crank with a socket wrench freely, instead of 2 inches at a time with a wrench, move the fan, 2 more inches, move the fan, etc. I will take off the valve cover. Although I won't be able to actually see the valves, I will see the stock 1966 rocker assembly in action. I should be able to tell when both rockers are up or down?

 

[addo]

It'll be quite apparent when valves are open; their respective rocker tips will be below the line of those shut.

 

[SoCar72]

Have you checked the fuel pump for proper output pressure? A split pump diaphram can fill the bowl but not provide enough pressure to sustain running. Sense you not smelling raw fuel in the engine compartment when trying to start, you may not be rich, but lacking fuel.

Forgive the elementary question... new fuel filter?

Probably a dead horse...I second the wire order on the distributor. Throwing back to ADDO, I've wired a dizzy backwards before, acted like it was running on 1 cylinder; wired it the other way, it ran great. (DOH!!!)

I suppose the coil and electrical system are both 12v. I've heard some of the earlier systems were 6v, though I haven't seen one. The coil poles aren't reversed are they?

Sounds like you've disconnected the PCV. I have found that a filtered Valve Cover Cap with a PVC system connected to the carb or intake results in lesser vaccuum with an inline engine, less of a problem with V8, since the engine draws through the PVC from the same cover as the filtered inlet. Use a standard sealing cap with the PVC system, even if it is connected to the breather. Use the filtered breather without the PVC.

Best of luck.

 

[63FuturaRag]

I'm not supposed to be interested when the valves are open, am I? Aren't I supposed to be interested in when they are both closed? In which case, the rocker tips on the springs would both be higher?