Real hardcore... Reverse rotation engine useage...

[82F100SWB]

Leave it to me to get into a mess such as this.... I am planning on building a Locost, and, I'm currently in drivetrain gathering mode. For the engine, I want something lightweight, and not a large package, so, a 4 cyl. I stumbled across a free 88 Honda Prelude with a DOHC 2.0L that has around 160 HP or so, which will be more than plenty. The car is a writeoff, and hadn't run in a few years, but, all it took was a battery, 4 fuses, and, it fired up, and runs perfectly. However, although I haven't verified by sticking my nose under the hood while it's running, but, from what I'm told, that engine is of the reverse rotation variety.... Just because I don't really have anything better to do, I'm trying to figure out how to use it with a "normal" RWD drivetrain... My most hairbrained idea so far is a divorce mounted flywheel/clutch and bell run off of a driveshaft from the crank snout... I could go with a flipped rear axle housing, but, then helical gear wear becomes an issue in both the tranny and rear axle. I've thought of a 1:1 geared reverser box, but, I have yet to see one that could handle this amount of power continiously that wasn't part of a piece of heavy equipment.
Or, probably the easiest way to do it would be to utilize the entire Prelude drivetrain, transaxle and all... Maybe build a mid engined roadster of some sort.... All I know is I have alot of goodies to play with on that car... 4 wheel steering, 4 wheel discs, etc....
Anyone have any ideas?
Evan

 

[Greywolf]

Builf a mid-engine, RWD car like the Toyota MR2, Fiat X 1/9 or the Pontiac Fiero.
I've thought about doing this myself.
Use a solid bar in place of the steering rack: Adjustable rear toe! Just have a connection to the inner tie rods.
You get the picture, I'm at work, gotta run. :/
Ben

 

[addo]

When Lotus appropriated the Renault 16 engine to use in the Europa, they reversed the crownwheel to the other side of the pinion. This avoided the "4 reverse, 1 forward" gear situation.

What about looking for a diff type with overhung pinion and flipping it?

Adam.

 

[Anonymous]

Don't most 4x4's have reverse-cut gears in the front diff? You might be able to swap out the reverse-cut gears into a regular diff.

 

[StrangeRanger]

It's not just the diff. Most trannies are set up to take the thrusts from the helical gears in one direction only. If you run them backwards, you'll overload the bearings and/or supporting structure. You need to stick with a trans designed for reverse rotation, the mid engine/Honda driveline idea is the most practical solution.

 

[SuperMag]

Option A:
How tough would it be to reverse the rotation of the motor? You'd have to have a custom cam ground, and IIRC, the distributor on the Honda runs off the end of the cam shaft, so it wouldn't be that tough to graft on a dist of your choice (and eliminating all the electronic BS that hangs off of the Honda dist). And you'd have to reverse the polarity of the starter motor... And the oil pump. You'd have to figure out how to keep it from blowing bubbles in the sump...

Option B:
Sell the Honda ("runs good, body needs work") and use the proceeds to buy a small Ford6... Pass on the Honda motor. Just 'cause it's free doesn't make it worth the PITA of dealing with its idiosyncracies. Surely you can find a more conventional drivetrain for a few hundred bucks, and save yourself several thousands worth of headache and labor...

 

[Anonymous]

You could end up with one hell of a go-cart. I was thinking of doing the same with an old Festiva or something.

 

[Anonymous]

With a bit of fooing around, it might be possible with some inginuity to use an automatic tranny but with different drive/output gears to reverse the rotation....

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/automatic ... ssion2.htm

 

[MustangSix]

Adding extra gearboxes to reverse engine rotation kind of defeats the "light-simple-cheap" Locost philosophy, not to mention that space is somewhat limited for things like that.

The best way to use a Honda drivetrain is to sell it and use the proceeds to buy something more normal, like a Subaru flat six.

You're a guy that's out there on the edge - trade it for a bike engine!

 

[StrangeRanger]

The Subie idea is one that I've kicked around a bit in my head. If you took the drive train and flipped it around to rear engine, mid tranny AWD you'd have the 1 forward 5 reverse problem. On the front diff this is easily solved just by turning it over and redoing the fill and drain plugs as req'd. If the front (now rear) diff can be flipped inside the housing to reverse it's sense of rotation and the bias on the center diff reset, you could end up with a very interesting package. A tube frame car could weigh in at 1200# or thereabouts and could prove to be a very good autocrosser. Given the rearward weight bias, I'm not sure if it would be stable enough to be a good hillclimber, but it just might do the job.

 

[66Monterey]

Yep sell the honda and get yourself a Ford 2.3L OHC preferably a turbo version. 185-205hp stock. A great little motor.

There's always some ricer who's dying to get his hands on a Prelude motor for an engine swap, and you can always dust him later with your turbo 2.3!

 

[82F100SWB]

Selling the car as a whole is out... It wouldn't fetch me much of anything anyway, the body needs more than a little work...

And being waay out in the boonies, there aren't any ricers, and, shipping that drivetrain would be $$$ That's also the problem with going to a 2.3T, or a Subie, it's 4 hours to get to a JY that might have that stuff.

No need for that anyway if I went the small six, in the same yard is an 80 or so Fairmont Wagon with a 200 and auto, I fought with it for a couple hours(wiring harness was a bit chopped up) and it didn't start, so I kept looking... I can get whatever I want there for free... My 4 cyl choices are pretty limited though, Couple Tempo/Topaz's, few 2.5L and 2.6L(I'd run the Mitsu 2.6, but I don't have parts for it here) K-Car based rigs, A Mazda 626 with the dash ripped apart, an Iron Duke in an S-10(bolted to a T5) and another in an Astro hooked to a 4 speed, whatever's in an 80 Courier and an 84 Volvo wagon(2.4L or so IIRC) with a 4 speed and electronic O/D(pushbutton on the shifter. works in 3rd and 4th according to my '80 new car guide) that I can't quite get running, I just don't know enough about it's fuel system.
For straight sixes, there's that 80 200, a 74 /6(hooked to a 3 speed, haven't ID'd it yet) and, a couple Chebbys. For V6's, 84 3.8 Ford hooked to a C5 in a LTD-II, 88 Ranger 2.9 hooked to a 5 speed(nice and compact, runs crappy tho) 8? S10 with a 2.8 and auto, a mid 90's AWD Aerostar with a 4.0 and A4LD(and a t-case of some sort, but, it's got HIGH miles, and is all electronic) A RWD Aerostar with a 3.0 and auto, and that's about it, For V8's, well, That's simply too much motor, I like to stay alive...

I'd do the bike engine, but, there's the whole out in the boonies thing again....I really have to get out of the boonies...

If I could get that Volvo running, I'd use that engine, looks to be a mechanical injection system on it similar to what my old Jetta's had, simple wiring, no computer, and the tranny would be nice too....

If it wasn't for the 210K miles on the AWD Aerostar, the drivetrain in it would make a great AWD donor, I'd even fight with all that wiring...
Most of this junk is running, but all those blasted FWD cars make finding a decent RWD 4 cyl a PITA...

I'd fly with the small six, but, I've never really had any enthusiam for those engines, about as interested in that as I am my 302(I still haven't gotten that truck registered...)

When I say I'm out in the boonies, I don't kid, 50 miles north of here, the pavement ends, and 200 miles north of that, all weather road ends, beyond there it's winter roads only, heck, I've gotta drive 1 hour to get to a permanent traffic light.
Evan

 

[SuperMag]

When I say I'm out in the boonies, I don't kid, 50 miles north of here, the pavement ends... I've gotta drive 1 hour to get to a permanent traffic light.

Maybe so, but you can lounge on your deck, get smashed on Gin and Tonics, and shoot your Magnums into the dark with impunity! Isn't it great?

Given your remoteness, I'd say the Duke/T5 combo would be the ticket; its ubiquity would ensure a ready supply of parts... I'd also give thought to the AWD Astro drivetrain; I wouldn't be terribly concerned about the high mileage of the drivetrain, it's not like this is going to be a daily driver...

 

[MustangSix]

I think if it were mine, I'd build a mid engine version. Just use the whole drivetrain and cobble up something for the front suspension.

Boy, that far out in the boonies, I'm surprised the Internet reaches that far!

 

[Anonymous]

And don't forget the CVT's in many (most? all?) snowmobiles.


-=Whittey=-

 

[StrangeRanger]

FWIW SCCA has a class, Formula 500 that uses 500cc snowmobile engines and a CVT. They weigh 750-800 lbs. and go like stink. They usually group them weith FF. I can take most of them in ther corners, but if they've got the clutch assy. adjusted correctly, they accelerate out of the corners like a rocket. In an auto-x they run F Modified and outrun all production based cars and many of the faster B and C Mod racecars. A few people have used bigger engines like (900cc) and run them in A Mod, the fastest class. It's all in adjusting the CVT. Get it wrong and they become pigs.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Evan,

If you think about it, there realy isn't any thing wrong with the concept of a front wheel drive Locost. It just has not been done, that I know of.

Loosing the rear differential and the drive shaft will lighten the car and you could use all of the Preludes suspension pieces.
The car would weigh about 1100 pounds and would run like stink!

It may even be better than a rear wheel drive out there with the snow and muddy roads.
There have been a lot of very successful Rally cars built that where front wheel drive.

Just a thought,
John

 

[82F100SWB]

Yah, lots of snomobiles around here.... But, I've worked on so many of the damn things that I don't even like to look at them, I do know a few tricks about tuning the clutches(buddy of mine runs a 600 cc Polaris unit on Alcohol, runs 110-120 MPH in the 1/8th mile...) And, for something that probably won't see a track that often, running a 2 stroke is entirely impractical, espically since I'm most likley to drive it the hour to the track than tow it....

I've been thinking about going with the Prelude suspension and FWD, it'd run like stink, and really handle if I figured out how to adapt the 4 wheel steering(It's not just some suspension action thing, it's actually got a R&P out back.)
I'm either gonna go FWD, or mid-engine with the Prelude drivetrain, as, thanks to a buddy of mine, I have a spare one if I want it... Unless I can make that Volvo run(just in case you cant tell, I like my stuff oddball... LOL.....)
I'm out in the boonies, but, in a town that's out in the boonies, between the two parts stores, and my old boss, I can get dang near anything.

Jack, IIRC, you had mentioned that some of the Locost guys were using the Zetech Focus engine. How are they handling drivetrain?
Evan

 

[MustangSix]

The Zetec has the same bell pattern as the 2.3. They are using a mustang bell for a T-4 which allows them to bolt on a T-5.

BTW, the Zetec is nothing more than the old 1600/1900 Escort CVH with a DOHC head, so if you run across one of those you could adapt it to RWD the same way. Also, the 1600 DOHC in the Later Escort GT is the same as the Miata engine.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Evan,

I just checked at Yahoo Groups Locost_Theory and there are a lot of front wheel drive Locost cars being built in the UK.
So I guess the idea is not so far fetched.

I think the only thing that you would need custom made would be some new coil springs as the ones you have are for a 2800 pound car, might ride a little stiff.

Considering the weight of the Locost, the stock Honda brakes and suspension pieces are almost over kill. I wouldn't consider upgrading them.
The all wheel steering is one area that I would try to keep, not that you need it but just for fun.

Going Front Wheel Drive does give you an option of having a very short wheel base. Just be carefull and don't let it be to short or it will get a little squirley at high speed.

What ever you do, Please build it like you were going to wreck it. Build it strong and safe.
We like you walking around!

John