Rebuilt engine won't start

[electrorc]

Hey everyone,
I'm finally to a point of trying to get my '65 Mustang to run after having the engine rebuilt and a bunch of other stuff over the past 2.5 years or so. I'm not having any luck with it. First I had some electrical issues and it wouldn't even turn over. Now I can get it to turn over, but it won't start. A couple times it sounded like it wanted to, but didn't.
I've poured a little bit of gas down the carb. Fuel pump doesn't seem to be working--no fuel at the carb and no vacuum at the pump inlet while cranking. But I'm not sure how much vacuum the pump would even normally pull at just cranking speed. The pump worked fine on the old engine. And I'm guessing since I've poured gas down it, it should at least start on that and then die?

I set the timing by turning the engine to about 10 deg BTDC according to the timing marks, then dropping in the distributor so that the rotor pointed towards cylinder 1 on the far right. Maybe that wasn't the correct method.

Manual choke is on. New battery, new starter. Tank has gas and the line running to the pump has gas in it.

Any suggestions? I'm starting to get worried about how much I've been cranking it trying to get it figured out.

 

[gtm1086]

Ok let's start with the basics.
1.Do you have the distributor properly timed? It is very easy to get them 180 degrees out. By this I mean make sure that you indeed have it set for number 1 on the compression stroke.
2 Do you have spark?
3. If the distributer is correct and you have spark I would make sure that the valves are not set to tight causing a lack of compression

 

[electrorc]

Ok let's start with the basics.
1.Do you have the distributor properly timed? It is very easy to get them 180 degrees out. By this I mean make sure that you indeed have it set for number 1 on the compression stroke.
2 Do you have spark?
3. If the distributer is correct and you have spark I would make sure that the valves are not set to tight causing a lack of compression

1. Not completely sure. What's the best way to verify that it's the compression stroke? I tried the finger method with a helper but she couldn't feel for sure after I spun the engine around by hand a couple times. I know you can watch the valves, but I can't find my handbook with the diagram of the order... which is the intake and which is the exhaust?

2. Yep, there's spark.

3. I have the non-adjustable rockers, so I'm guessing they're okay. Lifter preload and everything seemed good when I checked them.

 

[170-3tree]

1) you should do the finger method with a socket on the balancer bolt. But when watching the valves, the two furthest forward should be up, or closed with the pushrod downward. Meaning it is compressing what is in the cylinder.

3)unless the head or block were milled more than .010 that shouldn't matter, if either has, there is a chance that the pushrods are too long now.

To me it makes me think distributor is 180 off. And that is a good method for setting up the dizzy initially, but also play with it while someone cranks it over.

 

[bubba22349]

I can't find my handbook with the diagram of the order... which is the intake and which is the exhaust?

Real easy on an inline engine look at your intake manifold each port leads to an intake valve, and on the exhaust each port leads to an exhaust valve

 

[Gene Fiore]

Yeah sounds like the dizzy is off. Here's how I do it.

1) Take #1 spark plug out.
2) While holding a finger pressed up against the #1 plug opening, rotate engine clockwise by hand with a socket and wrench on the balancer bolt until you feel air being pushed against your finger. This will be the compression stroke.
3) Continue to rotate engine until the timing mark on the balancer lines up with the zero mark on the timing tab.
4) Insert distributor making sure rotor is pointing to the number one position on the distributor cap. I make a mark on the dizzy housing to indicate this spot since the cap will be off while doing this.
5) Re-insert #1 spark plug
6) Start engine

Done. Hope this helps out.

 

[ludwig]

While at it, you can determine absolute TDC (top dead center) to find out if the outer ring of your balancer has slipped. This is a common problem on older engines. There are various methods. The simplest (for me) to describe is the use of a rod of some sort inserted into the plug hole. When you feel pressure building on your finger in the #1 plug hole, remove your finger and insert a long rod of some sort that will reach down to touch the top of the piston inside: long screwdriver, welding rod, wooden dowel or similar. Continue turning until the rod stops rising. That will be your TDC. If the mark on the balancer does not line up with the pointer, make a new mark with white dry mark or paint.

It is easier to turn the crankshaft with a socket wrench on the balancer bolt if you first remove all six spark plugs. Once you have confirmed TDC, reinstall the dizzy as per the excellent instructions Gene just provided.

 

[electrorc]

Real easy on an inline engine look at your intake manifold each port leads to an intake valve, and on the exhaust each port leads to an exhaust valve

Oh wow I didn't even think about that... I should've thought that whole thing through a little more haha.

Anyway, I think the timing's okay, or at least close. Here's what I did:
Pulled the valve cover off
Rotated engine until intake opened
Kept rotating until I got the timing mark on the balancer near all the timing indicators on the cover
Checked the rotor position--was right before the #1 wire

So if nothing else, it shouldn't be 180 out. I don't think the balancer has slipped as I'm using my old one, and I had timed the old engine fine using it.

Sorry Gene and ludwig, I just saw your posts when I came back inside. I might give that method a better try later and verify that it hasn't slipped.

Edit: Okay TDC checks out, balancer hasn't slipped. Going to try Gene's timing method now.

Edit 2: Alright. Timing was a tad off (not 180, just a few degrees), so I adjusted it. Sprayed a bit of starting fluid in as well. Really sounded like it wanted to but nothing. I'm going to pull the fuel pump off and check it by hand, then replace if necessary.

 

[170-3tree]

I would then say, you should replace that pump, pouring gas down the carb throat may be flooding or not giving enough atomized fuel.

What are you using for a distributor?

 

[electrorc]

I would then say, you should replace that pump, pouring gas down the carb throat may be flooding or not giving enough atomized fuel.

What are you using for a distributor?

Yep, that's what I'm about to look into.

Distributor is the stock '65 Load-O-Matic with the correct SCV carb, all off the old engine.


Edit: Pulled the fuel pump off. Was really hard to get it to move, then it made vacuum once. Then locked up. Now I can move it again but it isn't making any vacuum. Off to get a new one I suppose.

 

[170-3tree]

If getting a fuel pump doesn't make her run, what condition is the distributor in? Ie electronics?

After I rebuilt mine initially the condenser failed on me, taking the points and coil with it, it would do just about the same thing to me when o cranked it over.

 

[electrorc]

New fuel pump is in. I now have fuel at the carb and it sprays in when I hit the gas.
Still no start though. I'm pretty sure it did for just a split second but then it died again and wouldn't do it again.

Ignition stuff is all pretty new. PO replaced it all; it shouldn't have more than a couple hundred miles on it. Condenser, points, coil, rotor, cap, wires. New Autolite 45 plugs.

 

[bubba22349]

You might want to check if your plugs got fouled out (wet) if so you will need to dry them and cylinders out. On your distrib set at from TDC to 8 BTDC the rotor should be just leading the caps post for #1.

 

[electrorc]

Okay I pulled all the plugs and they had a bit of fuel on them. I wiped them off and let everything sit for an hour or two.

I got it to start and run for a few seconds with starting fluid, then it died. When it was running, it was completely unresponsive to throttle--it was at idle, I hit the gas expecting it to rev up, but it just stayed there until it died. Would that probably be a carb issue or what? Throttle linkage is fine.

 

[bubba22349]

Has the carb set for a while? If so you might need to open it up and clean it good. They will form a varnish from sitting to gum up all the little passages

 

[JackFish]

If you have plenty of gas and spark then there is probably still a timing issue.

 

[electrorc]

Got it! Flipped all the plug wires around to make sure it still wasn't 180 out, and that made it worse. So I put them back.

Then I remembered I had a picture from when I first got the car that showed the dist position, and just roughly turned the distributor until it was near the same place. Fired right up! So apparently, I'm very bad at setting timing with the car off haha. I think I went backwards on the method I tried last night.

Have an exhaust leak and some major coolant leaks, so I'll need to get those taken care of now. I had around 40-50 psi oil pressure around 2-2500 rpm.

Thanks for all the help everyone!!

 

[Invectivus]

awesome, it's great to make headway.

 

[ludwig]

Mark you TDC accurately now with the engine working properly. You might be surprised. Or you could time the engine and record the degrees of advance so you can re=set if it drifts out again.

 

[170-3tree]

Ludwig,
It didn't actually drift out of time, he just had the picture from when he pulled the dizzy out before the rebuild. Actually a really good source of refrence.

Glad to hear ya got her runnin. those oil and coolant leaks tend to be a PITA, but a lot might be solved by going back over bolts just snugging things down a bit more.

Just not TOO tight on the pans and such as they tend to snap easily.