Starter Chewing Ring Gears...

[MPGmustang]

Well, ever since I have converted over to a t-5 I have been going through starters like crazy, the ony nice thing is that they are free as I have autozone's lifetime warranty and I think this might be the 8th time I have swapped this starter under it.

I always make sure I get the new starter no handme downs as I just don't want to deal with them... but I have stipped teeth, warn out silenoids, complete failure, fallen apart, loose gear, shattered gear, and broken the starter shaft (I wish I had pictures of that as it was impressive!)

well back in august/september when I got my engine rebuilt I had the flywheel re-balanced and resurfaced, then added the PP to balance that, well the shop told me that the ring gear needed to be replaced, so for like $90 (part and labor) it was replaced.

Now I have some hard times starting the car, when I do I get out and push the car then pop the gear to 2nd, sometimes it starts other times it don't, when it don't I can use the starter just fine, as if I didn't need to push it.

Well I figgured the worse and wish it wasn't but it is, the ring gear needs to be replaced...


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Plan:
get rid of autozoo starter and go motorcraft from ford dealer
drop tranny, take flywheel to get it re-ringed
replace 3 finger clutch with a ram clutch
replace throw-out and clutch bearing
have front tranny bearing checked (I think it's going)

What ring gear do I need? I forget the tooth count...
What would be a GREAT ram disk/clutch setup to help harness the new found power?
What can I do to make sure this doesn't happen again...
Where can I find a clutch disk that has MORE than 4 rivits holding the inner disk and outer disk together? (will take some pics to show what happened...

I figure I have had all the same parts in there for 2 yrs now, except I recently replace the clutch disk...

I'll be looking but if anyone has had amazing luck with anything I'm looking for let me know, I'm tired and just want this to work and be reliable...

 

[nickstewartroc]

I've had a similar problem. My starter kept skipping to where it wouldn't catch anymore. This was the original -from the factory- starter. Went to autozone and got one, and now that I'm rebuilding the tranny, I see that the starter gear and ring gear are chewed :/

 

[Explorer]

From the wear pattern it looks like starter is not engaging far enough. Kinda like when you mix auto and manual starters. Never having done a T5 swap, I'm no help not knowing what was involved.

 

[Invectivus]

could you be cooking the solenoid? That can casue a mess of issues like not engaging enough.

 

[MPGmustang]

Nick it sucks that this is not the only occurrence, I'm sure others have experienced the same...

Explorer, that's what the old ring gear did, like it over shoot the teeth IIRC, form the Auto/manual starter it's hard to mix it up as the auto start has 3 bolts and the manual has 2 bolts, the 3 bolts have a different angle than the 2 bolt so you can only line up one of the bolts if you tried.

Invectivus, it could be possible I'm sure I've done it before, with the stock manifold I went through 5 starters over 1.5yrs and the header I have gone through 3 starters in less than 1 year. I've had the car since Jan 8th 2008. I think the starters I have been getting are just too cheap and wonder if the teeth are even the right size for the flywheel teeth. Either way i'll go motor craft and probably check to see how much everything is from the dealer.. at least I get a warranty for something...

 

[Thad]

You noted that auto and manual starters can't interchange. Question? could the re-builder be putting manual starter gears on auto starters?. Also different tooth count on various Ford flywheel/ flex plate could there be a miss match there?

 

[80broncoman]

You noted that auto and manual starters can't interchange. Question? could the re-builder be putting manual starter gears on auto starters?. Also different tooth count on various Ford flywheel/ flex plate could there be a miss match there?

Could there be differnce be tween the starter gear itsself beteen a manual and a auto? and then the rebuilder useing a auto gear and a manual starter nose?

 

[Frankenstang]

You noted that auto and manual starters can't interchange. Question? could the re-builder be putting manual starter gears on auto starters?. Also different tooth count on various Ford flywheel/ flex plate could there be a miss match there?

Thad may have a real good point there...especially given the rate you're going through starters. Mismatch could be in the starter gear, but what about the flywheel gear...as Thad suggests (assuming it's not an 'optical conclusion'...for some reason those teeth look a little big and far apart for the 136 tooth ring gear that fits the 9" flat flywheel) Assuming you're going to be pulling the tranny to deal with ring gear a tooth count and OD check of the gear would be a good idea (11.798" O.D. 10.808" ID 136 teeth). Maybe they got the wrong ring gear. They're on ebay and at Tom's Bronco Parts, but understand they're hard to come by from any of the parts stores anymore.

EDIT: BTW with the bell off (mock up) or on, and the tranny removed but flywheel still on the block would be a good time to check alignment issues.

EDIT 2: MPG if there's a way we can consistently measure yours to mine, I've got a loose gear I could give you measure of teeth per inch...just an idea tht might help compare ring gear with only starter pulled.

I'd agree...rebuilt starters are often very low quality. I've had a number of problems with them on several different vehicles, if you can find new that would be nice...sometimes those lifetime warranties just mean a lifetime of labor and problems Good luck!

 

[MustangSix]

The main difference between Ford starters is the depth of the nose. One type is 3/8" shorter than the other. You can bolt a short starter to a "long" flywheel and it might engage, but only by about 1/8". They don't last very long that way.

It sometimes takes a long starter to fully engage the ring gear on a flywheel. When you start swapping various years and styles of flywheel, flexplate, and starters the only way to know is to measure. Check the distance from the edge of the flywheel to the block plate and then measure the engagement depth of the starter.

Finally, you can't always rely on a rebuild to be correct. You might get a long one or a short one. These things look alike and some of the time bolt right in and work - for a while - until it chews up your ring gear.

I think all the inline starters are the same index diameter, but I know that on the V8's there is also a difference in diameter on the nose where it engages the block plate. BTW, that block plate is important. The hole that the starter engages the plate at a precise distance from the ring. If you attempt to just bolt on the starter without it, it will bolt up to the bell, but not be properly indexed and it will be noisy or grind. I see that you have one installed, so you're OK on that.

A slightly worn ring gear can sometimes be removed and reversed, but yours is shot. You can buy just a ring gear I think. Heat it with a propane torch and tap it off. Heat in the oven to 450 (when the wife is away) to reinstall.

Anyway, when you get the new flywheel, measure the engagement distance. Might save some trouble later.

 

[chad]

Could there be differnce be tween the starter gear itsself beteen a manual and a auto? and then the rebuilder useing a auto gear and a manual starter nose?
Yes, short snout v long snout - sz of starter gear, # teeth on "ring gear". Have fun if U changed out motors, clutches, FW.
Did U post a pic of starter that wrked, MPG/Rich? Back n frnt would help...

 

[MPGmustang]

The car is apart now, she won't be going anywhere until I'm sure I won't go through another ring gear... might take a while but will be sure... Ill take measurements of all the new starters I try, I want to make sure it won't chew the new gears.

I'm thinking I just want a mini-starter, one made for the L6. I won't guess anymore, I really need this to be reliable. I'm not going back to autozone for anything starter related, except to get them to pay for the 8 starters and the 2 ring gears... maybe the new ones too.

the ring gear came off with a few good wacks from a 2lbs hammer, the gears are completely gone on oen side, not even usable. If you want more pictures or a video of the ring gear just let me know. Im told I can heat the new ring gear to 350* in the oven for 15min and it will slip right on my cold flywheel with no problem. sounds quick and easy.

the ID is little under 11" (10 and 3/4th?) the OD is less than 12 inch.



Click the picture to make bigger

Some day I hope to get her on the road where she belongs...


On a side note:
the tranny made some noise, so I'll have a tranny shop look at it and see if they find anything messed up or about to be messed up. I might as well since I can't use it yet.
I'm looking for a cheap diaphram clutch and PP setup, I'll replace all the bearings I can as I have everything out. I heard a 78 fairmount is good with a 67 TO bearing and the custom guide bearing.

Thanks Guys for all the replys.

 

[chad]

Looks like a "short snout" which 2 me means manuel transm. starter. But the T5 throws me off, also all a moot point due to continued changes MPG's planning...

 

[80broncoman]

Well, ever since I have converted over to a t-5 ......I had the flywheel re-balanced and resurfaced......

So is this the same flywheel from before the conversion?? If not can you bolt the old flywheel on and measure the distace from the block surface to the flywheel gear?
I'd do the same with the old bellhousing bolt in the old starter and measure

 

[bmbm40]

I like the mini starter in my 250 powered Bronco. Works great and several pounds lighter than a stock unit. Don't know about t5 conversions but for clutches I went with the Centerforce disc/pp for my 5spd nv3550 conversion and am impressed with it. Clutch pedal pressure very light compared to before and very positive engagement. The 250 has lots of torque and is pushing a 3800 pound vehicle. I sometimes drive it kind of hard and no signs of problems so far. The customer service guy at Centerforce was so helpful I would do business with them again just because of that experience. They have two or more grades or levels and I went with their standard package.

 

[MPGmustang]

before I had a C4 that was on it's las legs, and I really wanted over drive for all the highway miles I wanted to drive (road trips, vacations, weekend crusies, ect...)

I found a junkyard with a 70 maverik, it had a 200ci and a 3.03sp, so I ask how much for the bell housing and everything inbetween the block and tranny (PP, clutch, flywheel, bearings, block plate, and belhousing) and I pick it all up for $200, smoking deal cause I got a very nice flywheel and a new clutch that lasted me 2 yrs before the engine rebuild. the 3 finger PP is also still in use even today, but would like the diaphram easy on the pedal now.

I'll try to get pictures of the measurements, with the ring gear off tho it'll be hard to say exactly, I'm going to take the starter down to autozone and see if it fully engages all the way.

what it looks like to me is the starter AWAYS takes it's teeth and some how hits the teeth of the flywheel, like it aims for it before it slips to engage.

here are the pic's

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you know I just noticed something, this nose cone has the C60F part number, would this mean 66 starter? or just the casting. even though I have spent the extra for the "new" starters and it's lifetime warranty, it looks like they still give used parts.

I agree, this lifetime warranty is a lifetime of labor with bad parts...

 

[Frankenstang]

this nose cone has the C60F part number, would this mean 66 starter? or just the casting. even though I have spent the extra for the "new" starters and it's lifetime warranty, it looks like they still give used parts.

x100 on staying away from autozoo starters IMO

C6 should be okay. 1966 is the first year of the 9" flat flywheel. Although the C6 bell was a one year only bell that married the 9" flat flywheel to a 2.77 peanut tranny (before Ford went to the 3.03 toploader in '67), the starters should be the same for C6 and C7 & later, because they all used the same flywheel for M/T.

The first thing that concerns me looking at your pics are these two


These pics seem to show the nose cone bushing for the tip of the shaft not completely seated , which could prevent the bendix gear from having enough throw.

EDIT: The bendix is a softer metal than the hardened gears and should show more wear than the ring gear does (more importantly bendix should 'take' more wear), except if the starter is messed up...and an issue with the nose conse bushing is what it looks like to me.
Do you remember what shape the ring gear was in last time you saw it? As they start to wear they're more prone to skipping therefore more wear, negative self reinforcing problem.

Unfortunately from what I've seen 99% of the starters for this era from the parts chains, advance, oreilly, etc. are all rebuilt, haven't seen a 'new' one to the factory dims (unlike say new aluminum water pumps they carry now).

Check rockauto for diaphragm style Clutch & PP kits, someone here asked about them a week or so ago, and when I checked they had good prices on rhinopack (good brand name as far as I know) and other brands. Any 3.3l, MT application for 78-80 should be good Fairmont, Mustang, etc. (the SROD used the same flywheel too so the clutch kit is the same AFAIK). As you noted they'll come with TO bearings for a cable clutch fork, and you'll want the '67 TO for your manual linkage...Napa sells a nice heavy duty one.
I'll pm you re: the gear. Good luck!

 

[MPGmustang]

Robert, I think it's one of those times that I go and scratch my head, as didn't understand what you said...

These pics seem to show the nose cone bushing for the tip of the shaft not completely seated , which could prevent the bendix gear from having enough throw.

maybe some arrows cause I don't know what I'm looking for...

I can't find a mini starter... anyone with any recommendations? I wanna go mini as it's "newer technology" and get one that is for my setup. should be a guaranty that it works... I hope.


I'm having a problem... with the Pilot Bearing...

the special pilot bearing for 4cyl T-5 to mate to 200ci from Napa (SKF Part no. 6202-2RSJ for $25)

I have used this bearing but I think it has ruined my input shaft bearing on my 4cyl t-5 as the Pilot Bearing does not like to stay in and makes my pedal vibrate, usually I pump the clutch again and it goes away. so what can I do to make it say in? I have tried RTV, but still came out...

 

[Frankenstang]

maybe some arrows cause I don't know what I'm looking for

Richard, this is what looked potentially troubling to me...


You can see the tip of the shaft and the bushing that goes around it through the hole in the nose cone. I'm not accustomed to seeing the shaft and bushing not reaching the end of the nose cone. When I first saw your pics it made me think the bushing was not pressed in all the way, or not seated all the way. Looking at it again it seems the shaft might be short for that nose cone as well. Maybe there is a mismatch of parts like Jack suggested, but 'within' the starter itself...wrong shaft, etc.

The whole shaft on a starter does not move forward (toward the nose cone), but instead the bendix gear on the starter and the bearing behind it (sorta like a throw out bearing) are what is moved forward along the shaft. So, looking at it again I'm still wondering if that bushing is seated properly and/or is the right bushing...and now I'm wondering if that is the right shaft as well...seems too short

Hopefully someone can confirm or deny if that's a correct look for the starter, but it just doesn't look right to me, and if either a)the bushing is not seated all the way, b)is not long enough, or c)the shaft is not long enough (or any combination thereof)...then I could see that introducing play when the gear comes out to that end of the shaft and meets the ring gear. In fact it almost looks like there are some impact marks on the side of the ring gear (in the picture before you took it off the flywheel...but that could be an optical conclusion as well).
And I should have qualified my concern above with "this might be it", cause as old Murphy proves to me time and time again, just when I'm sure what a problem is...is when I'm guaranteed to be dead wrong
Comparison with another starter might clear this up.

Here's a pic of the starter I got from Oreilly 4-5 years back...not that it tells you much, but felt it was at least a 'good' quality rebuild...have had zero problems with it...touch wood



As for the pilot bearing, that's just another head scratcher...man, you're just having all the wrong luck I used the skf bearing and had to seat it in the crank with a 1.5" piece of pvc IIRC. It did not just slip right in by any means.

You had the lower end rebuilt as well correct? Did it fit loose before too? Maybe you got a bad one? Rockauto has the same skf bearing for a bit cheaper I think, you might try a new one. Or maybe you could consider peening the outside of the outer race to make it snug (a work around when you might rather find what's out of tolerance)...but that's really got me wondering how it became a loose fit to begin with...unless it was always that way.
Again could you have gotten a 'bad' bearing...one that just didn't quite meet OD specs, or did something happen to enlarge the recess in the end of the crank? Rebuilders? Was the input shaft bearing bad first and screwed up the pilot? Sorry if that's not much help....but this stuff has got me scratching my head like crazy too now...just weird!

 

[MPGmustang]

Here's a pic of the starter I got from Oreilly 4-5 years back...not that it tells you much, but felt it was at least a 'good' quality rebuild...have had zero problems with it...touch wood

Man! you've owned that starter for longer than I've owned my car!!! lucky... lol

actually, my previous engine fit the guide bearing very snug, didn't have a problem when i had the 68 block, this 78 block might also have the 78 crank and that's what I figure to be different. I forgot the bearing in the engine when I gave the shop the core and I figured it would be okay to put it back it as it looked to be in great condition and I didn't have any problems with it. just recently I put RTV on it when I replaced the clutch disk a few months ago. I'm going to try to find some calipers to measure the D of the crank.

Honestly the starter looks and feels very robust, there is no play that I can find, the only thing I find fault with it is that it is nosiy, but has been noisy since I first installed it. IMO probably the most robust starter I've ever owned, probably the longest too... lol

It's funny, this is the ?? time I have taken the trans out and it went so fast I thought for sure I forgot to do something... I guess I know what I'm doing now... lol

the history of the trans as far as I know, "the mustang shop" sold it to me for $300 as a fresh rebuilt 4 cyl t-5, the tag confirms it's from a 89 4cyl mustang. was very clean I assumed it was without getting it looked at. blind faith if you ask me... one year after running it I noticed that it got VERY loud just doing anything, and somethings didn't not want to go, very difficult time drivign off when cold, only got better when warm. well I finally crawled under to check the fluids and it was BONE dry, for how long i ignored it? honestly maybe a month or two... ... put in 3 quarts and the car's problems went away, ever since then I have kept an eye on it, unitl I noticed every oil change I was 1 quart low, that's when I had it looked at, the drive shaft shop replaced the used yoke with a never used yoke, and lenghtened my drive shaft to fit properly, I asked them about the leak and they said I need a bushing insided the tail of the tranny replaced along with the rear seal, so they included all that in the bill for $400. the under of my car has never been so dry... ... then I started dyno testing, and gosh it felt great on the road with that much extra power. but now the tranny made even more noise, I checked the fluids and it was full, so I emptied some and put lucas in but didn't help, then the starter/ring gear... so I figure I'd have a tranny shop look at it. I've never noticed how loos that clutch shaft was, I don't think it was that loose last time I looked at it, and on top of it the nose cone developed a crack. so I'll probably be in another $300 in parts and labor... the shop suspects the guide bearing to be at fault as it does go in and out very easily.

bit lengthy history but that's it in a nut shell, I probably put on close to 36k-39k miles on it in the 3 yrs' I've converted it over...

 

[Frankenstang]

:wow: Richard....sorry to hear you've been having those problems with your tranny, but it's all good info that may shed some light on your current issue

For what it's worth, IIWIYS I would pitch that old bearing. I would not even try to re-use at this point. My guess is either has been mis-shaped (compressed or some such) or lost some surface material from previous installation or removal. They're cheap enough through rockauto ($5.59) , you might even get two...then you'll never need the other one
I looked it up under 'part no. search' using 6202-RSJ
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1836728
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframe ... m=6202-rsj

The fact that the pilot bearing has not been in place doing it's job, and that you might have an input shaft bearing out as well, would make me start to wonder if that could effect crank shaft end play, run out, or cause some pre-mature main bearing wear. Just might be a good time to check that stuff out while you have it apart...maybe someone more familiar with internals could weigh in on this idea.

Not saying you have bigger problems, but unless you have your foot on the clutch each time you start the engine, then the starter might be rotating the flywheel with this extra mass that's off center due to the worn pilot/shaft bearings...just wouldn't want to encounter any pre-mature wear on the rebuilt lower end.

Not sure if that could effect the starter/ring gear alignment issues your dealing with or not

IMO I just wouldn't trust an autozoo starter as far as I could throw it...as you know they're kinda heavy
If you ever got a chance to see one of these rebuild shops, you'd see just how quick & dirty a fab process the rebuilders are...it's discouraging. Of course autozoo does not have the exclusive on that, and again, just too many bad experiences personally with autozoo starters. Maybe someone knows of a mini starter app that would fit...I thought I had heard of one, but that may have been for the 250....maybe it was using a later model one?

Also it does look like that bendix on the starter has suffered some decent wear given your situation. If it's a lifetimer then I would at least consider exchanging it. Another thing, again IMHO, don't live with a noisy starter...if there's noise it is usually for a reason, and not often a good one. You can always test yours like the parts stores, at least for smooth action and obvious play/wear. Take some jumper cables and connect them to a battery, then connect the black to one of the bolt ears on the starter housing, and (being careful to be sure the starter is strapped or held down securely) then just 'touch' the hot jumper lead to the post on the starter. Excessive wear, bad bearings, shaft, or armature issues may be much more apparent at that point where you can see and hear them.

This is just my $.02, but I wouldn't skimp if you're seeking that reliability Good luck!