synthetic oil

Removing "dirt" is a two step process. The detergent properties of the oil remove/prevent deposits and keep the "dirt" in suspension within the oil. Then the oil filter removes most of the particles above 20 microns as long as the filter isn't running in bypass mode (mostly high-rpm conditions).

So, on an older "dirty" engine, an oil w/ good detergent action will appear "dirty" almost immediately after the oil change. This does not mean that the lubricating properties of the oil have plummeted, but rather that your engine's deposits are being removed.

Some say that with very high-mileage engines, you should increase the frequency of the oil FILTER changes, but not necessarily increase the oil change frequency. I recommend doing a few used oil analyses (UOA) to see exactly what kind of wear is occuring and how the oil is holding up. A UOA will indicate the viscosity grade of the oil (an indicator of how "worn out" the oil is) and the UOA will give a very detailed description of the percentage of various metals and other contaminants in the oil. For example, a high percentage of aluminum and/or copper is usually an indication that the engine's bearings are experiencing accelerated wear.

FWIW, the Toyota problem is still very relevant and Toyota does have some responsibility in the sludge problem. There is a large percentage of Toyota owners who are the type who go to Iffy Lube to get that "icky stuff" changed every once in a while, if they remember. :roll: The design of the affected Toyota engines is not nearly as forgiving to sludge as most engines on the market. Yes, if the oil is changed precisely at the recommended intervals without exception, the opportunity for sludging is diminished, but that's not a realistic expectation for the market segment that uses these vehicles. The real kicker in this case is that Toyota published THREE different recommended service intervals and the wording was confusing enough that many customers didn't know how to care for their cars. Tie all these factors together and you see how this problem is a big deal. If you are going to build a car that is chosen by people who are mechanically inept, you better give them a wide margin for error. (I'm not saying all, or even most Toyota owners are mechanically inept, but Toyota certainly does draw in that group of people more than most other brands due to their image as a "maintenance-free" vehicle manufacturer.)

In the end, Toyota has accepted responsibility for the problem, even on vehicles beyond the warranty period. In the legal world, this means Toyota is admitting that the sludge factor is in part a result of their faulty product and/or service recommendations. In reality, they are saying "yeah, you probably screwed the engine up by your own negligence, but our crappy design didn't really make things any easier, so we'll make it right for you."

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002/04/04/toyota-sludge.htm
 
hmmm that's quite interesting. I still don't see why it's toyotas fault though...... Thats like me going to ford and telling them that my motor blew and it's there fault even though i hadn't changed the oil in 10,000 miles and didn't feel like my motor realy needed to run on high octane like it said in the book. Ok well it's a little different but, one day people will understand that the oil change intervals are at a certain time for good reason. That and don't use recycled oil :roll: hehe.
 
SixFoFalcon":1nbl22g9 said:
Then the oil filter removes most of the particles above 20 microns
Click to expand...


That is the biggext problem, most people do not realize that 20 microns or larger is like, 3%-4% of the total junk in your engine. If you want to keep an engine clean by changing the filter, you need a filter good down to 5 microns or less (all particles in sludge are that size or smaller) otherwise you are wasting money on oil filters that are only effective as a "screen door" for getting the bigger pieces out while all the damage occurs from the small stuff that flows right on through. Its a fact.

Without a "super" oil filter, the ONLY way to get out all the small stuff (smaller than 20 microns) is by frequent oil changes.
 
seriously though cheapest filter i saw when taking a quick glance at that was 30$ lets just say not for the faint at heart. I wonder if k&n filters are anything special they are like 8$ which is still within reason but pretty expensive.
 
If K&N oil filters are anything like their worthless, crappy air filters.....they will let pretty much anything the size of a grain of salt through!!!!!

The Mobil 1 filters are very good, I run them for a long time.
Amsoil makes a very small micron rated filter, but it is bypass, not full flow.
 
well i'll be running mobil 1 full synthetic so why not buy the filters to t/y lync.
 
A few things:

1. If you want a filter that traps <5 micron particles, you need to set up a bypass filter. If a standard filter was designed to trap particles <5 microns, you'd have to change the filter every week and even then you'd have serious flow restrictions.

2. K&N Performance Gold oil filters are among the very best filters made. They are nearly identical to the Mobil 1 filters in flow and filtering efficiency. They flow a hair better than Mobil 1 and have a hair less filtering efficiency. Both are tops as far as high-end filters that you can purchase locally (at a parts store), and they are both in the top 5 overall.

3. Particles below 10 microns don't damage the engine to any appreciable degree. Particles between 10-20 do very little damage to the engine. This, coupled w/ my point #1, is why most filters are designed to trap particles 15-20 microns and larger.

If you guys want to REALLY get into the details, feel free to check out bobistheoilguy.com. I have deliberately left out as much detail as I can... otherwise I'd spend all day just trying to explain all the nearly-useless knowledge I've picked up about oil and filters. :lol:
 
Well you guys never did answer my question directly, but reading the posts dirty oil and filters was very important and the most talked about. I am not saying synthetic oil is not good oil. It may very well be the slickest, longest lasting, break down resistant, etc around and no one really talked about its good lubricating properties. IMHO if it gets dirty it is no better than any good dino oil that is dirty. One guy said it wouldn't get dirty and what little that was in it didn't mater, please explaine and why ever change your filter, if you do. I knew a guy, a mechanic, that is now gone to the big shop above. For years he bought new vehicles and drove then over 100,000 before he traded. He NEVER changed the oil. He did change the filter every 1,000 miles. He never had an engine go bad. Now I'm not gutsey enough to try that, but it makes since, he kept his oil clean.

After reading all the posts I will reaffirmed to myself that a good grade clean oil is more important than a good grade dirty oil. If I were to use synthetic oil I would still change at 3,000 miles. Since it is too expensive for me to use synthetic and change at 3,000, so I'll stay with dino oil.

Thanks again for your input.
L.D.
 
I think toyota & lexus are being very generous to their owners.

I see a lot of ES300's & RX300's which were sold from dirt lots & were purchased at the auction, most of which were lease vehicles.

A lease vehicle owner could care less about maintenance to a vehicle, just because they will get rid of it in 3 years.

This design engine is not tolerant to oil changes beyond the 5000 mile recommended interval. As a result sludge develops & seizes the oil rings in the pistons & destroys many of the engine seals.

This is one example where synthetic oil would be benificial, more heat tolerant & its additives last longer.

I have seen many of these vehicles which had oil changes every 5000 miles & at 180,000 miles we pulled a valve cover & there was no evidence of any sludge.

The point being that those 10,000 mile & 15,000 mile oil changes are the cause of the problem. Its the idiot owner that did it to their engines. William
 
The filtration industry uses ratings that are a "nominal" rating. A 10 micron filter does not filter out all particles greater than 10 micron. Nor does it mean that all particles less than 10 micron pass through the filter. I forget the specifics, but it is a range and percentage of particles "around" the 10 micron standard. Pores or passages of a certain diameter can be bridged off with particles that are around 1/3 of the diameter of the pore throat.
Doug
 
i do have a little schooling on fuel/oil chemistry thru the navy, from what i understand oil does not 'wear out' it only gets to a point where when the oil oil accumulates enough particulate matter (dirt,carbon,residue from combustion) it ceases to be an effective lubricant because it basically becomes liquid sandpaper, the only way oil can be 'broken down' is by a solvent such as gasoline,paint thinners,etc and if it is also exposed to saltwater,none of those things can be filtered out or placed in a purifier to spin them out like you can with freshwater,sediment etc. i just felt that synthetic oil might be a little better than Dino, as on 2 ships i was on we replaced the petroleum based oil with synthetic and immediately we had cooler operating temps on turbogenerators,air compressors,shaft bearings etc,i had not ever seen them used in a combustion engine,and was wondering how gasoline fumes,carbon etc. would affect the oil. i'm not sold on running a car 10,000-15,000 miles on 1 oil change, there will have to be some contamination build up, and if there is not much build up after say 8 or 9 thousand miles, how effective is the oil at removing sludge build up? as most of us know oil is not only for lubricating,but also removing dirt,carbon, blah,blah,blah.
 
wsa111":16dmqd76 said:
I think toyota & lexus are being very generous to their owners.

I see a lot of ES300's & RX300's which were sold from dirt lots & were purchased at the auction, most of which were lease vehicles.

A lease vehicle owner could care less about maintenance to a vehicle, just because they will get rid of it in 3 years.

This design engine is not tolerant to oil changes beyond the 5000 mile recommended interval. As a result sludge develops & seizes the oil rings in the pistons & destroys many of the engine seals.

This is one example where synthetic oil would be benificial, more heat tolerant & its additives last longer.

I have seen many of these vehicles which had oil changes every 5000 miles & at 180,000 miles we pulled a valve cover & there was no evidence of any sludge.

The point being that those 10,000 mile & 15,000 mile oil changes are the cause of the problem. Its the idiot owner that did it to their engines. William
Click to expand...
You are absolutely correct. I believe the main reason why Toyota was willing to cover the damages was because at the time, Toyota was still riding the "quality gap" high, which was when the Big Three were making crap (comparitively speaking) and all the Asian makers were banging out top-notch products. The sludge issue (as petty as it was) was sure to be exploited by the Big Three and the American auto rags if not handled properly. Regardless of the fact that the problem was a non-issue for people who treated their cars right, Ford, GM, and Chrysler were NOT having these issues (even w/ the extended drain intervals) so it would have been a huge opportunity for the Americans to turn the tables and post a win in the quality arena.

In the end, Toyota made things right, while the Big Three left there failing FWD transaxles (and numerous other flaws) in the hands of the customer w/ no compensation. The Asians won again. Now the Big Three have narrowed the gap to the point that on average, quality issues are about even across most of the major makes, Asian or American. But over two decades of failing parts that the struggling American companies weaseled out of fixing pro bono has left most people unwilling to accept the fact that American makers can build reliable products and stand behind them.

*******************
Back to the main topic:
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ldj1002, I think the point that may have been obscured through all the peripheral arguments (guilty, as charged!) is that after the first oil change or two, when the engine has been "cleaned out" by the detergent action of the oil, synthetic really begins to shine. Take two identical cars and pour synthetic in one, and dino in the other. Change the dino oil & filter every 3K and the synthetic every 7.5K. The synthetic-lubed motor will exhibit less wear over a given mileage (say 50K miles), because the dino oil additive packages break down more rapidly and the oil is no longer in grade and can't protect the engine as well.

Just a quick recap of the points you seek:
A standard, purely base-stock oil (no additives) will have a straight, single viscosity. In other words, it will be a SAE 30 or SAE 40 or whatever, not a 5W30 or 10W30 (which can protect better both hot and cold, not just one or the other.) The additive package is what increases the oils ability to flow better when cold without thinning out too much when hot.

In a dino oil, the additives will break down rapidly because there is less base stock and the additives are being exposed to more abuse. Thus, the oil reverts more to performing like a standard single-viscosity oil and as a result you lose protection when cold and/or when hot. You can no longer "have it both ways" and the bottom line is that wear will be accelerated. A synthetic can easily endure more use before the oil properties are comprimised.

Now, many will argue that it's irrelevant if you don't use longer drain intervals with the synthetic. Well, the numbers state otherwise. Do a UOA (used oil analysis) on synthetic and dino at 3K. Guess what? Synthetic is protecting your engine better ALREADY, before you even venture into extended drain intervals. The real bonus comes in when you check your synthetic oil via UOA at 10K miles. Now take 3 of your UOA results from dino (9K miles' worth) and add up the TOTAL number of contaminants and metals from engine wear. The synthetic will invariably have lower numbers.

Like I said, you can go do your own research at any one of the dozens of "oil geek" sites and form your own conclusions. That's what I did, and I use synthetic for everything. But that's MY opinion (just like everything stated above) and if you conclude that you should still use conventional oil, then that's what you should do.
 
do you have any recommendations for a synthetic oil? or what brand NOT to buy? the local speed shop told me i needed Royal Purple brand but that stuff is very steeply priced,what about Mobil 1?
 
I use Mobil 1 in the SHO, the cheap wally-world synthetic in the SLO (not a true synthetic according to some oil geeks because of the base stock grouping, but it's really cheap and better than conventional), and I'm going to switch to Mobil 1 in the Falcon when it comes out of hibernation. I don't buy the Royal Purple hype, but it is a decent oil... just not worth the price they ask. Amsoil is good, but not usually available locally. Castrol Syntec is OK too. Generally though, I prefer Mobil 1 or Valvoline SynPower depending on price and availability.
 
It is very hard to beat Royal Purple or Amsoil. They are both extremely high quality oils.

However, most driving conditions never warrant something THAT good. Racing, yes. Daily driver, no.

I bought the Lycoming engine for my airplane from a guy in Eau Claire, Wisconsin who's wife drove a Saturn around for her cosmetics business (IIRC...).

He said he changed the Mobil 1 in it every 50,000 miles (!!!!??!!!!!) I couldn't believe him..... He showed me the odometer: 283,000 miles. I was floored.

Did it work for him? I guess so.
Would I do that to my car? No way.
 
I use Royal Purple in my boat. I did a UOA on it last change and the results showed that there was almost no breakdown in viscosity, and I could have run it at least twice as long between changes. And that's in a 502 bigblock marine engine that I'm not exactly gentle with. The stuff isn't cheap though. I run Mobile 1 in the cars.
 
And it was said
"Now take 3 of your UOA results from dino (9K miles' worth) and add up the TOTAL number of contaminants and metals from engine wear. The synthetic will invariably have lower numbers."

Maybe it does??, but for the last 6,000 miles the oil and contaminants from 2 of those tests haven't been circulating in the engine. I'll bet that last test, the one that is circulating in the engine with 3,000 miles on it has less contaminants than the synthetic with 9,000 miles and is still circulating in the engine. From what I read here, is most folks go well beyond 9,000 on a change,even worse yet.
L.D.
 
ldj1002":2tqccpcd said:
And it was said
"Now take 3 of your UOA results from dino (9K miles' worth) and add up the TOTAL number of contaminants and metals from engine wear. The synthetic will invariably have lower numbers."

Maybe it does??, but for the last 6,000 miles the oil and contaminants from 2 of those tests haven't been circulating in the engine. I'll bet that last test, the one that is circulating in the engine with 3,000 miles on it has less contaminants than the synthetic with 9,000 miles and is still circulating in the engine. From what I read here, is most folks go well beyond 9,000 on a change,even worse yet.
L.D.
Click to expand...
The wear metals in the oil are indicators of how much of your engine has WORN AWAY over the miles and ended up in the oil. If you have less wear metals in the oil after 10K miles, then your engine has worn less and your bearings and other crucial components are in better shape. Removing the oil along with the wear metals more frequently doesn't help your cause half as well as using a BETTER oil that won't wear your components as much.

To put it another way:
The wear metals that show up in a UOA are WAY too small to actually damage the engine just by circulating. They are showing you how much damage has been done already, and what particular components are being worn. So regardless of how long the metals have been circulating, the less cumulative quantity of those metals that show up in your UOAs, the better the condition of your engine.
 
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