The Differences in Small Six Ford Blocks, Bell Housings, & Trans Combos

[Charlie Cheap]

I am trying to adapt the A4LD behind my 1973 replacement 200" motor in my 1965 Mustang coupe. Trying for over 30 MPG highway. Auto engineering formulas say my 203" SIX (.030 overbore), 2.83 gears, 26.3" tall rear tires, and a .75 overdrive will put the little engine around 1800 RPM at 75 MPH. With my cam, 2-barrel machined-mounted 2100 Autolite carb, and running the Air Conditioner, 30 plus MPG could be done. If you are looking for a project deal, I have 2 Sunbeam Alpines with one 1725 OEM motor and one 2.3 Ford just rebuilt, taken out of an 85 Mustang. Two cars not running but lots of parts. Wife's surgery, 2 contractor rip-offs for thousands, stolen car stuff (about $3,000.00) while stored during our move, and at 76 years this Oct 4th, I need to concentrate on the 65. Both with parts, $4,000.00. Abilene, Texas. I also have a 16' flatbed car trailer for $900.00 with ramps.

 

[chad]

horse of a different color over here on this thread CC...

May B delete/repost as a new thread. That will get U seen / the most assistance possible.

Almost done on this thread for stickie conversion...
8)

 

[bmbm40]

What a great resource! This must be everything known about this subject.

 

[bubba22349]

This post is for those that want to detail their Ford's and Mercury's in the correct factory engine colors that Ford used by the Model years. The detailing that Ford used on the early model engines in late 1959 through the end of 1965 year models is my personal favorite, plus the correct color was also another way that mechanics could quickly ID the engine size of these early Fords. Of corse over all the years since these cars were new many have changed the engine colors during an engine rebuild, valve job or other repairs so these colors can be almost anything now and those are for sure the owners preference or choice to change them to what they want from how Ford orginally built them. Please PM me with pictures that you might have to submit of orginal cars or period correct restorations of engines, along with any addictions or corrections you might have, Enjoy

On the 1960 to 1962 cars the engine compartment was painted same as the exterior body color except for the Black cars that got sprayed or resprayed in Semi Gloss Black, Duplicolor's DE 1635 or Krylon 1613 is a good match. The 1963 to 1965 cars engine compartment were all painted in Semi Gloss Black too. The bottom of the Hood was painted in the exterior body color. The engine compartments were painted before the body started to be assembled. Brake lines and the bolts holding the fenders on were not painted and left a natural steel.

Here some pictures (below) and info on correct colors for a restoration of the early Ford Falcon and also the Mustang six engines. Ford painted the assembled Engine long-blocks, IE the block, head, front cover, water pump if cast iron, and oil pan, all in Gloss Black through the end of the 1965 year models, this included paint covering all the hardware (bolts etc.) Duplicolor's 1605 or Martin Seynour 7882 is an excellent color match. For the accessory parts like pulleys, fans, starters, generators (except for the generator or Alternator pulley and the fan behind it they are left natural steel), generator or alternator brackets & belt adjusters, etc. these were all painted Semi Gloss Black a very good match is Duplicolor's 1635.

The valve covers were painted separately from the engine, their color (for up to end of the 1965 year models) is one way that Ford and other Service Tech's used to ID the different engine sizes quickly. The Valve Covers were installed near the end of engine assembly using natural metal bolts with special integral lock washers. The oil cap breathers were painted the same color as the valve cover.

Ford engine colors

1960 to 1964 Falcon 144 engine was the base engine for the new for 1960 Falcons
Engine/Part. Color
144 Cu.In. Valve Cover Medium Blue Duplicolor's DE1606 or Martin Seynour 7958 Is reported to be a good match but I have not used it personally valve cover bolts are a natural metal
144 Cu.In. Air Cleaner Medium Blue Duplicolor's DE1606 or Martin Seynour 7958
144 Cu.In. Block, Head, Oil Pan, Gloss Black Duplicolor's DE1613 or Martin Seynour 7882 is good match

This is a 170ci six cylinder it was an optional engine in the Falcons starting in 1961 it was the standard base engine used in the 1962 Failane, as well as the 1964 1/2 Mustang's in their first 5 months of production. Info I have says it has a red valve cover and air cleaner but I remember them being more of an Orange Red as were the early 170 Falcon motors. The Valve cover bolts are a natural metal.

1961 to 1965 Falcon, Fairlane, and Mustang 170 six Engine Color Reference I am not sure if I can agree with this being the same as the 200's color
Engine/Part Color
170ci valve cover Orange Red Duplicolor's DE1605 or Martin Seynor 7992 the valve cover bolts are a natural metal
170ci air cleaner Orange Red Duplicolor's DE1605 or Martin Seynour 7992
170ci block, head, oil pan Gloss Black Duplicolor's DE1613 or Martin Seynour 7882 is good match

Ford 170 Six engine


Here pictured is a 200 six they were introduced as the base engine in the 1964 Fairlane. They were also an optional engine in the 1965 Falcon and also became the standard base engine for the 1965 Mustang. Looks much the same as the 170 it replaced, with the exception of the deeper red valve cover and air cleaner colors. Valve cover bolts are natural metal.

1964 the 200 Falcon, Fairlane, and Mustang 200 six Engine Color Reference
Engine/Part Color
200ci valve cover Red Duplicolor's DE1605 or Martin Seynour 7992
200ci air cleaner Red Duplicolor's DE1605 or Martin Seynour 7992
200ci block, head, oil pan Semi Gloss Black Duplicolor's De1613 or Martin Seynour 7882 is good match

Ford 200 Six engine


For the 1966 year models and later Ford engines they were no longer color keyed to specific engine models, all Ford engines were now painted a Ford Corporate Dark Blue. This was the new color for all Ford engines for 1966 and later. As before the entire Engine long block was painted after it's assembly and the valve covers were painted separate and than installed on the engine with the same natural metal bolts with the special integral lock washers as before. Some claim the 1966 and 1967 engines were the same color as the 1968 up Corperate Ford a Dark Blue, I can't say I agree with this as I remember them being a lighter Blue, then those of the later 1960's. To add further confusion many auto parts companies market 3 different Ford Blues.

In my opion for the years 1966 and 1967 all Ford and Mercury engines were painted a different Lighter Blue! Duplicolor's DE 1621 or Pladtickote # 205 Old Ford Blue is a close match to what I remember. If you plan to enter your car in shows you might want to find out for sure from the Judgeing / Tech's which engine color they except as original for the 1966 & 1967 Model models

In 1968 to 1972 170 six'es were still being used they were the base engines in the Falcons, Comet's, and the new 1970 Maverick's. They are painted the same as the 200's and 250's see below for example.

This is the 1966 200 engine (in the below picture) the air cleaner is made a little different from the 64 1/2 and 65 engines. All Ford engines were now painted in the Ford Blue starting in 1966, Valve cover bolts are the natural metal. The Sports Sprint models have a chrome air-cleaner housing, as did the 1966 Sprint 200, made available during Spring 1966.

1968 up Falcon, Fairlane, Maverick, Comets, and 1968 to 1973 Mustang 200 six Engine Color Reference
Engine/Part Color
200ci valve cover Dark Ford Corporate Blue Duplicolor's DE 1606 Dark Ford Blue or Plastickote # 224
200ci air cleaner Dark Ford Corporate Blue Duplicolor's DE 1606
200ci block, head, oil pan Dark Ford Corporate Blue Duplicolor's DE 1606

1966 Ford 200 Six


The 1969 up Falcon, Fairlane, Maverick, Comet, Granada, Monarch, 1969 to 1973 Mustang 250 six Engine was also painted the same Dark Ford Corporate Blue.

For the 1968 up color of Ford Corporate (Dark) Blue, Duplicolor's 1606 matches this. Some other brands that also match the Ford Blue are Krylon's Ford Dark Blue and Plasticoat Royal Blue 1134. For the accessory parts like pulleys, fans, starters, alternator brackets & belt adjusters, etc. these were all painted Semi Gloss Black a good match is Duplicolor's 1635. Good luck

 

[bubba22349]

This post will cover the Factory Engine Colors for those Restoring a 1960 Comet and the 1961 to 65 Mercury Comets and Metor's Inline Sixes. After 1965 the Mercury engine were painted Blue in 1966 and 1967 was Old Ford Blue, 1968 up Dark Ford Corporate Blue just as all the Ford engines where (see above post).

The early Mercury engine detailing was done much like the Ford six'es with a few exceptions. All the 144, 170, and 200 engines built for the model years 1960 to 1965 where as follows. The assembled long blocks are painted in Gloss Black this includes the block, head, oil pan, timing cover, water pump. Duplicolor's DE1613 or Martin Seynour 7882 is a very good match. For the accessory parts like pulleys, fans, starters, alternator brackets & belt adjusters, etc. these were all painted as the Fords in Semi Gloss Black again a good match is Duplicolor's DE1635 or Krylon 1613. Comet Engine compartments were painted like the Falcons 1960 to 1962 in the exterior body color except for Black cars that got resprayed in Semi Gloss Black. Then in 1963 to 1965 the cars engine compartments were all painted Semi Gloss Black too.

The Valve Cover and Air Cleaner were painted separately in these colors. Good example pictures of the early Mercurys engine are hard to find so if you happen to have a picture or more of an original or nicely detailed Mercury Six and would like to share in this post then let me know. Enjoy

1960 to 63 144 Sixes
the valve cover and air cleaner were painted Yellow, this maybe the DuPont Dulux #24934
Picture Examples of correct early Mercury engine colors and detailing are hard to find. Here is a link to adamscm 144 engine rebuild with its great detailing work.
https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t ... or#p589788

1961 to 1965 170 Sixes the valve cover and air cleaner was painted Argent (Silver), Posable matches are Motorcraft Argent SilverPM19K207-AA available at your local Ford dealer. TECnique Argent Silver available at NAPA auto parts stores. East woods Alumablast, VHT Argent Wheel paint I haven't tried any of these yet to know how close they match to Fords original Argent colors of the 1960's.

1964 to 1965 200 Sixes the valve cover and air cleaner were painted Ivory (Creme White). This maybe the DuPont Dulux #1222

The valve cover Breather Cap was painted same color as the Valve Cover. The Valve Cover Bolts were not painted (they are Natural steel)
Good luck

 

[bubba22349]

This info is for the later model Mustangs (Fox Chassis), Mercury Capri, Granda & Monarch six'es

On the 200 (3.3L) and 250's (4.1L) engines the colors in later 1968 through to end of 1981 all Ford and Mercury engines were painted the Ford Corporate (Dark) Blue, Duplicolor's 1606 matches this. Some other brands that also match this Ford Blue are Krylon's Ford Dark Blue and Plasticoat Royal Blue 1134. For the accessory parts like pulleys, fans, starters, alternator brackets & belt adjusters, etc. these were all painted Semi Gloss Black a good match is Duplicolor's 1635. The engines were painted assembled except for the valve cover, the bolts weren't painted and left a natural steel finish as they painted valve covers before assembly.

In 1982 Ford started painting their engines a Battle Ship Gray color Duplicolor's New Ford Gray DE 1611, VHT SP131, or Plastickote #216 is a good match. As a side note Ford stopped painting their engine blocks and heads leaving them natural cast iron sometime around 1984 or by the mid 1980's. Good luck

 

[bubba22349]

Smaller, Lighter, Better Hi Torque Starters for the 200's & 250 Six'es or Other small Six'es that use a 2 Bolt Starter!

Recently there was a discussion on the big six forum on using the newer small case Motorcraft or aftermarket gear reduction starters in place of the big case old style starters. These newer starters have lots of advantages like smaller diameter cases for more header clearance, less weight, faster starting, to name a few. So though I would also share some of highlights from mine and others posts here in the small six forum as it also applies to our 250's, & maybe the 200's, ior any other Small Six that uses a 2 bolt style starter. To see the full topic go here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80786&p=628334&hilit=Starter+fitment#p627464

When I can or perhaps other site members.will help verify applications for small case and gear reduction starters for the other small six'es 200's, 170's, 144's', that use the 3 bolt starters so we can add them into the info too. If I remember right these 3 bolt starters are the same as the Ford FE V8's (332, 352, 360, 390, 406, 410, 427, & 428). Fords have two starter drive depths 3/8 or 3/4 inch. Measure from the face of your bell housing where the starter bolts on to the ring gear to determine your depth. Generally a Manual Trans bell uses a 3/8 inch depth starter and an Auto Trans has a 3/4 inch depth.

Their are some commonly available aftermarket gear reduction starters can be used if it's for the same application. Plus there are two late OEM Ford Motorcraft starters one is a smaller case and one is a Mini HI Torque starter that can be used. I remember that many of the starter rebuilders and new manufactures use a base number to ID starters for an application (not sure the correct number in this case but think it's 3157) but these particular starters will fit many Ford engines like the 200's & the big bell 200's, 250, 240, 300, 4.9, 3.8, 289, 302, 351 W's & C's ect.

The indexing hub of the starters is also slightly different based on application, m/t vs a/t. The Manual 2 bolt starter has a slightly larger hub and won't fit in the bore on an automatic trans. Conversely you can bolt up an automatic starter in a manual, but you would notice the loose fit in the bore.

Econoline brought up a great point in his above post. I have seen people use shims and spacers to adapt the wrong starters and have just wondered why. When you use the right tail piece on the starter you get the right starter drive depth and it fits into the starter mounting hole as it's supposed to. This has been a constant throughout, the starter motors are the same the tail piece for an Auto trans needs to be used for an Auto trans Bell Housing and a Manual Trans used for a Manual Trans Bell Housing.

Just like there is a direct interchange between the old large case two bolt starters and the late model small case starters used on the 1988 up EFI engines like the 4.9, 240 / 300, 5.0, 3.8 ect. As an example my orginal starter on my 1994 F150 4.9 (300) / 5 speed (small case hi torque stater) went out one day. I had a 5.0 V8 starter in the garage it's the same starter except it was for an auto trans car so I just swapped my tail end piece (starter drive section) off my 300 starter on to the 5.0 starter and popped it in worked great and the pickup was back in service in about 1 hour. Good luck

 

[bubba22349]

There are two main flywheels or flex plates with tooth counts 157 & 164 plus another 141 that was used only in the sub compact cars. The 157 is then most common size its found in cars like mid 60's up Falcons Mustamgs, Fairlanes, Torino's, and their Mercury counterparts, etc, it measures 13.280 inches in Diameter. The next one with 164 tooth flywheels or flex plates being mostly used in the F series trucks, E series Vans and some bigger Ford or Mercury cars lake a Galaxy it measures 14.240 inches in diameter. There is a third size a 141 tooth flex plate (no fly wheels) it measures 11.94 inches in diameter that was used in the 1975 to 1978 Pinto's, Bobcat's, and Mustang II's with a 302 V8 and C4 / C3 trans. All of these 6 bolt bell blocks (250, 240, 300, (6's) and SBF V8's mid 1965 289, 302, 351 W, 351 C, (to name a few) all have the ability to use any of these three tooth counts by their intended transmission use.

 

[bubba22349]

I noticed from Bubbas posts,that the hi torque starters are direct drive.Would there be any re-wiring required for those starters?Maybe Bubba could post a bit of a schematic for the re-wire?Again,thanks to all who have posted. The provided information has been most helpful.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

All you have to do is add a jumper from the battery cable terminal to the solenoid terminal and it will work like the old starter. No rewiring. It will just engage 2 solenoids, the original when you turn the key and the one on the starter when power is applied to the starter terminal.

HI Woodbutcher, there is no rewiring needed when using the first Ford MotorCraft small case starter (EFI 1988 to Aprox 1995) see link to picture of example. The wiring diagram is for these starters it's essentially the same as for the older larger case starters used from 1956 up to about the end of 1986 or 87 (am not sure of the ending year). These First Gen Starters weight a hefty 16 pounds. The wiring diagram was still basicly the same with these first smaller case starters used from 1987 or 88 until the 1995 Fords. There have been some different looking solenoids used over the years and the ignistion coil full 12 volt boost wire (I terminal used during starting) was eliminated with the advent of EFI its newer Ignition system being controlled by the CPU, see link for examples but the rest of the starter wiring was still the same. This is as simple of a swap as unbolting your old large case starter then bolting in the new smaller MotorCraft starter the wiring stays the same check out all pictures in links below.

Starter circuit wiring diagram used through 1995.
https://wiringforums.com/ford-f-150-sta ... -f150-4-9/

Pictures of different Ford Solenoids
https://wiringforums.com/ford-f-150-sta ... g-diagram/

Picture Showing the Size Difference of a First Gen Ford Stater and an Aftermarket PA Performance PMGR Starter
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/e ... allery/#10

Example of First Ford small case starter 1988 to 1995
https://www.autozone.com/batteries-star ... 0_853758_0

For the Aftermarket Gear Reduction Mini starters and the Ford Motorcraft 1996 up these are the smallest case (Mini) starters there are some wiring differances see below links for pictures of examples of these starters. As an example the aftermarket PA Performance PMGR Ford starter only weighs 8 pounds. Since both of these will have the solenoid mounted on their smaller case starters, the old fender well mounted solenoid that was used with the large case starters could used or now even be eliminated. It's not too big a deal though and a few ways it can be done.

1. The old starter cable is disconnected off the back (starter) side of the old solenoid post and reconnected so that it now goes direct from the battery side of the solenoid down to the new starters battery cable largest post. This repurposes the old solenoid to operate in tandem with the new starters Solinod and is used as a stud mounting to conect the battery cable and starter cables together.

2. Then you have the starter trigger wire from the old starter cable side down to the starter thermal use a 12 to 10 gauge wire for that. That's about all there is to it (Note this) if you have a point type ignistion system or a Mallery Unilite distribtor, in that case you will need a diode (there are wire kits for this or you can make your for about 5 cents plus some wire up to coil) to allow a full 12 volts to coil during starting / cranking you can ask me if you need help with this.

3. if you also wanted to remove the old solenoid and clean up the looks a little more under the hood, then that can be done with just a little more work using a longer (Posative) battery cable. The wiring diagram would be kind of like what was used on the old 1955 up into 1990's Chevy's and other GM models of the era (see below link for a basic wiring diagram). A Bosh type Relay hooked to battery post and the old starter wire from ignistion switch is then used to trigger the relay a 12 to 10 gauge wire goes down to the starters solinod second largest post (check out the Tipical Chevy / GM wiring diagram below for some hints. See also the above Note if still using a point type ignistion.

As wallon7 posted you could link the two solenoids as in 1. & 2. so they operated together (see below link modding the Stock Ford Starter Solinod Wiring Diagram to Power the Newer Style PMGR Starter). There are also some old posts on the PowerMaster PMGR starters showing were people looped a jumper wire from the starters battery (largest) post to the second (largest) post this is a big no no and causes the starter to stay engaged with flywheel for a few seconds. Good luck Edited

Aftermarket Gear Reduction Mini Starter
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tff-13124/make/ford

Motorcraft OEM Later style EFI the Smallest Case Ford Starter with Solinoid these can vary by application and year of use Aprox 1996 up
https://www.autozone.com/batteries-star ... 002_0_3498

Modding the Stock Ford Starter Solinod Wiring to Power the Newer Style PMGR Starter
http://www.garysgaragemahal.com/pmgr-st ... iring.html

Or Also Like This
http://cdn.wildhorses4x4.com/downloads/ ... -12-09.pdf

Tipical Chevy / GM starter wiring diagram
http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/el ... 55car1.jpg

 

[bubba22349]

This all sounds like a dandy but of news for the engines with headers. Does a newer style starter allow more room between the header and the starter?

Yes for sure it gives you more room or clearance around the headers as you can see the differences between the First Generation (1960's to 1980's starters) and the Third Generation Motocraft starters (1996 up starters) in Econolines great Pictures in below post. All we need now is a Picture of one the Second Generation Motorcraft starters used in 1988 to 1995 to show its size In between those two.

I found these picture I took comparing the size of the old style vs the new style starters on my aod

 

[bubba22349]

Added some starter swap info above. i think it's most of it for the time being on block differance's, so if the site members will go over this info and let me know if any additional info needs to be added or the things that may need to be corrected, or rearranged for better clarity too. Then we could also add some more pictures. Thank you all for sharing your info and knowledge!

 

[BigIron]

I have the Econoline bell and 3.03 transmission on my '64 170, I think earlier I had not made it clear that my flywheel and clutch are still the dog dish and are original to the 170 (the flywheel not the clutch) I can't say for sure what van the bell housing came out of I found it lying on the ground at the junk yard but after trying to fit every bell housing in the country I could find and none fitting I could tell by sight it was what I needed.

I pulled the 3.03 top loader out of van and then swapped the tailtshaft housing from a 3.03 I had pulled out of a '72 Maverick because there was a difference in the length of the input shaft and I could not swap them out, every time I tightened the bolts on the bearing housing the transmission would lock up, finally I went to the other end of the transmission and the tail shafts did not have a problem swapping over.

I did all that 30+ years ago so I can't remember exactly what the difference was but I think the Econoline bell is shallower than the car bell because I actually dropped the car (fell off the jack) on my chest while trying to get the transmission to go all the way into the bell and it lacked about 1/2" of mating to the bell housing, I thought something else was keeping the trans from going all the way in so I was pushing and shaking on it. I still had tires on the car so it just bounced down on me and left a round bruise on my chest where a bolt hit me and scared the devil out of me (used jack stands the next time, well from that day forward)

Anyway hopefully that is some kind of confirmation on getting the 3.03 to bolt onto a small bolt pattern block.

See Ya,
Mike

I’m in The midst of swapping my 8.5” clutch for a 9” in my 66 Econoline. I bought a 3.03 out of a 67 Mustang with a fresh clutch, flywheel, bellhousing, and backing plate. I’ve read this thread before and now understand the challenge. Instead of starting with the input shafts, I am going to start on the output. I was hoping it would be as simple as pulling the housing and sliding the shafts out. I guess I get to dig into the guts tomorrow.

Did the driveline have enough adjustment to absorb the 3/4” difference in the two bell housings?

 

[lavron]

I’m in The midst of swapping my 8.5” clutch for a 9” in my 66 Econoline. I bought a 3.03 out of a 67 Mustang with a fresh clutch, flywheel, bellhousing, and backing plate. I’ve read this thread before and now understand the challenge. Instead of starting with the input shafts, I am going to start on the output. I was hoping it would be as simple as pulling the housing and sliding the shafts out. I guess I get to dig into the guts tomorrow.

You need to measure the two bells and transmissions and check your input shaft length and bell housing depth, the easiest thing is to see if there is a difference, I would think either trans/bell would work if the bolt pattern to the block is the same (keeping each with its original bell) Swapping tail shafts was not too complex IIRC so if the Mustang trans/bell combo will bolt to the motor you should be able to just swap the tail shafts and be done.

Not sure on the length difference, if it is 3/4" you would just have to install the driveshaft and see if it still has enough clearance.

See Ya,
Mike