Valve Springs - OK Now I'm Confused

[WhitePony]

I got into a discussion with a guy at the auto parts store today, and now I'm not sure if I have the proper valve springs for my D7 head. I got exhaust valve springs for a 351W. But now I find that there are springs with three different free heights depending on year. The ones I got are 1.900 free height, but there are others that are 1.923, and 2.000 free height. Is there a specific year 351W exhaust spring that I should be looking for?

Kris

 

[addo]

What are your spring requirements, as per the cam grinder?

 

[WhitePony]

LOL! Good question! It doesn't say on the cam card, but David says 80 closed and 200 open I believe as a good default. And the springs that Mike lists have either 80/160 or 100/180 for cams in the range of mine (264). I put one new 351W exh spring and 4.0 retainer on, and the opening presure feels lighter than the stock ones. That doesn't sound right. Maybe I need the taller springs?

The ones I got were Sealed Power VS-919

 

[addo]

You need hard data, rather than feel. A closed (seat) pressure is a good start. Then it needs to be able to open without coil bind (remember Bryce's spring mishap?). If you have no data available, I'd strongly suggest Crow singles.

 

[WhitePony]

Sigh, This is getting frustrating. I was under the impression that the right choice was the exh springs from a 351 windsor, and the retainers from a mid 90's 4.0 V6. I can't buy springs & retainers from Mike unless I want to further modify the head, because the only springs he sells without dampeners are stock springs.

Grrr, I need to get this project restarted, but every time I think I have the right parts something like this happens to drag me back to a standstill!

 

[addo]

Buy Crow springs. They'll work up to 580 thou valve lift. If you were to call a retailer now, you'd probably have them on Wednesday next.

 

[WhitePony]

Are the 4.0 retainers still correct with the Crow springs? Or do I need Crow retainers?


And do you have a part#?

Thanks Adam, I'm just getting frustrated. I'm getting presure from my wife to get a move on, and now I'm dead in the water again until I get this resolved.

 

[addo]

It's parts kit #7820, a set of valve sprinmgs for the non-crossflow Ford Six. I was mistaken about the lift; it's up to 530 thou, not 580.

Use http://www.timeanddate.com/ to find the local times for Oz. Get it underway today and your wife will be happy! (No, I'm not on sales commission with Crow. )

 

[Stubby]

Have you measured your installed height. Put a retainer on the valve, pull it up and measure the height from the top of the retainer to the spring seat. Then subtract the thickness of the retainer and you have the installed height of the head with no shims.

The Speedpro book shows that spring to have 83# @ 1.600 installed height and 220# @ 1.15

 

[WhitePony]

OK Folks, There's gotta be a "RIGHT" answer to this problem. There are TONS of you out there who have faced the same issue and found what worked. What valve springs/retainers/keepers are you using with your medium lift cams? Until yesterday I thought that all I had to do was get 351 windsor exh springs and 4.0 V6 retainers and everything would be golden. Well now I find that there are 3 different spring heights for 351 windsor exh springs, and I have no idea which are the right ones.

There has to be a proper answer other than ordering from half way around the planet, where both communication and shipping is going to be an issue.

OK Here's what I have:

D8 casting head off of a 1979 Fairmont, milled .060
Standard valves for that year that have been back cut.
FSPP 264 112* cam
Adjustable 1.5 rocker assembly

I've already got $100 into springs and retainers, and STILL don't know if they'll work. Mike sells spring sets, but all the performance springs he sells require further machining done to the head. Does Clifford sell what I need? Isky? Comp Cams? Does anybody know the exact 351 windsor spring I should use with the 4.0 V6 retainer? David? Dennis? Mike? William? Doug? Anybody??????

HELP!!!!!

 

[addo]

Communication and shipping are only issues if you make them as such.

 

[WhitePony]

Have you measured your installed height. Put a retainer on the valve, pull it up and measure the height from the top of the retainer to the spring seat. Then subtract the thickness of the retainer and you have the installed height of the head with no shims.

The Speedpro book shows that spring to have 83# @ 1.600 installed height and 220# @ 1.15

I got an installed height of 1.56" when I measured with a digital caliper.

 

[Stubby]

Let me check my book.

 

[LameHoof65]

Hey, Kris I have the 351 exh. springs (clevite), I think you said you had the single pattern 264 at 112* or something, is that right? At any rate I have some good news I have found what I believe to be a great machine shop guy in Shawnee. Yep! talked to the guy for an hour yesterday morning....was late for work----had to take an hour of leave!

Any hoo the thing about the springs did come up and he told me he would check them out for me and let me know if he thought they would be a problem....but with the specs I gave him with my cam he said as long as I don't rev it for long periods over say the 5000 range it would probably be alright....we discussed the wear, valve float and bounce factor and he is very knowledgeable, I definitely trust this guy...They are Ford folk from way back...his grandson helps him run the shop and he pulled right up behind me in late model stang that sounded pretty awesome. Of course my cam is different than yours but his measurements and stuff on the springs should be the same on my D7 flat log as your D8 right?

The thing he was most concerned about was the 7 degree keepers I had, he said those things can jump lose if rev'd for long periods of time and said the 10 degree keepers would have been better....

Any way I like these guys it is Jr. Raley's auto parts store and machine shop at the West end of Main in Shawnee. They had a 71 Mach 1 un the back and were working on a 351 w to put into it. His grandson had a bunch of pics' his 66 stang and a 67 stang that were super..The grandson has actually built up a performance 200 and was unaware of the "Fordsix" folk here.....so of course I gave him the site info...

Don't panic on the springs and stuff just yet---I think I will have some information in a week or so...I told him if he thought the springs were a problem to let me know....send me your cam specs' and I will show them to him when I go pick up my head. 8)

 

[Stubby]

According to the numbers, that spring installed at 1.56 should have about 100lbs seat pressure. At .450 lift it would be within .070 of coil bind. That is a little close but it would probably be OK.

I would take the springs to the local machine shop and have them check the springs to make sure they will setup OK.

The specs for those springs are. 1.394 OD. .450 max lift
83lbs closed pressure @ 1.600 220lbs @ 1.15 open pressure
1.090 coil bind 304lbs per inch rate

You said the springs had less pressure than the stock springs?? This doesn't add up they should have more. I will PM you with my phone number and I will be glad to help but I need more info.

 

[Anonymous]

The Clifford double valve springs work without any modifications. Thats what I'm running.

I dont have any info on the other valve springs....sorry...

Later,

Doug

 

[WhitePony]

Thanks for all the input guys. I THINK that I have the situation taken care of. I called Comp Cams today and talked with one of their tech guys for quite a while. I gave him all the measurements, and he said that he had springs that would work perfectly. He's overnighting them to me because I really want to begin the assembly of the engine for paint this weekend. I'm going to run the head over to my machine shop to test the seat and open presure after I install them tomorrow afternoon. I'll post the Comp Cams part number when I get the springs tomorrow.

Darwin, let me know what happens with the guy in Shawnee. I think that I'm going to build up a second head and set it up for a direct mount. If he can do the teflon seals, and does a good job for you I'll be bringing him a bit more work. I think that the D7 and D8 castings are basically identical.

I'm hoping to have the head on this weekend and have the engine cleaned and masked for paint. I found a place in town that sells urathane engine paint, and I'm going down to check out colors on Monday. I'm going to buy a bit more than I think I'll need, because the paint gun is new and I need to practice a bit first.

Kris

 

[powerband]

I recently completed the rebuild of a D7 head. The machinist said this project was one of the more "exciting" works he had recently done. I am a decent mechanic but not a machinist so I calculated the amount of milling to achieve the C.R.t I wanted and had him mill and CC the chambers until it was right. I referenced the Ford Six Performance handbook for part numbers and he confirmed the availability . Vee-Ate springs, 4.0 retainers etc were as the handbook indicated and he said the manual's calculations were right on. .
One mod the machinist added were shouldered valve spring seats. Not being a machinist, my explanation may be flawed: the machinist said he measured each spring for proper spring pressure at specified height and then added the .060 thickness of the hardened -shouldered seats. He then milled the head's spring seats to the actual matched spring heights (@100lbs) .
He showed me a head with broken valve springs and cautioned me on pushrod length, spring bind and other considerations to keep aware of with re-assembly of a modified head. He also used a type of valve seal which he preferred for modified- "worked" heads which have positive steel spring retention requiring milling the valve guide towers but allow for better oiling and vacuum break.

I carefully reassembled the head onto a stock 170 block (for now) with new lifters and early tests indicate an increased response in the 3000 to 4000 RPM range with more confidence in the integrity of the valvetrain.
I installed a OEM steel shim gasket and with the C.R> at @ 9.3:1 It pinged badly with the 87 octane gas thet was remaining in the tank and as soon as I put in 93 Oct. it ran great.

Powerband 8)