And try this one:
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... highlight=
Oops. Repetitive redundance.
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... highlight=
Oops. Repetitive redundance.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Steve those pictures turned out nicely. You can definately see the differences in clearances. Although I have never bothered to set the waterpump clearance, I know it can be done. I'm not sure on this pump, but most cast impellers have curved vanes versus straight fins of stamped impellars. The stamped impeller just looks like it is going to have more slippage with the opennings in the bottom.
kirkallen143
Famous Member
Just as a reference:
Installed the new 3-core radiator and flex-fan in the bronco and while cruising at 2700 RPM in 90 degree sunny weather, the gauge reads about 165 degrees. Much more to my satisfaction, the $129.00 3-core radiator from Mustangs Unlimited was well worth it!
Kirk ' 73 bronco
Installed the new 3-core radiator and flex-fan in the bronco and while cruising at 2700 RPM in 90 degree sunny weather, the gauge reads about 165 degrees. Much more to my satisfaction, the $129.00 3-core radiator from Mustangs Unlimited was well worth it!
Kirk ' 73 bronco
A
Anonymous
Guest
when the motor was rebuilt were any performance parts installed? that would give it more boosT? you may need additional cooling.. I know the 3-core radiator $116 + theres a oil cooler at advanced discount autoparts for $75 for the 200block that should help with cooling... I have a question why do people put higher then 160 thermostats? wouldnt u want the thermostat to open up at the lowest possible temp?
A
Anonymous
Guest
OK people, I think were talking apples and oranges here. The cast iron should be a good 30 to 40 degrees hotter than the coolant. The coolant after all is transferring heat from the block and head.63S22Comet":30nu4ks1 said:
These engines seam to run better at the factory intended operating temperature, in the 180 to 190 degree range.gumpn2":30nu4ks1 said:
There is a balance for engine temperature. Remember, engine components are designed to run at a certain temperatures to take advantage of metal expansion. If you run below that temperature, the metal may not be expanding to what it was designed to be at.
Take some of the old marine deisels I used to work on. 9000BHP Inlines. Those had to really be at operating temperatures before being put under load, or you'd have all sorts of leaks.
Slade
Take some of the old marine deisels I used to work on. 9000BHP Inlines. Those had to really be at operating temperatures before being put under load, or you'd have all sorts of leaks.
Slade
A
Anonymous
Guest
so all this time my 200's beenr unning at 160 when it should be? 180?
A
Anonymous
Guest
yep
A
Anonymous
Guest
The water temperature is maintained at a certain high level according to your specified thermostat because you want the engine to be warm. The process creating the power in your engine is fuel exploding which generates heat. The heat causes the compressed air to expand and drive the piston downward.
If the heat excapes through the walls of the cylinder then the explosion will not expand as much or as fast as it might because the energy has found another way out of the cylinder. If the walls are colder because the water outside them is colder then you will lose a lot of heat through the walls.
One of the reasons that a "Hemi", with its hemispherical combustion chamber, is a good design is that a sphere has the best surface area to volume ratio of any shape. The more surface area you have the more heat you can lose through the walls.
From a purely thermodynamic perspective you want the engine walls to run as hot as possible so that no heat is lost through them. If two neighboring substances are at the same temperature neither will transfer heat to the other. Unfortunately, the materials that an engine is made out of cannot operate at combustion temperatures for long periods of time and thus there are cooling passages built into the engine. The cylinder walls must be cooled to keep them from melting but the cooler that they are the more heat/power is lost out of them.
-Dan in Atlanta
If the heat excapes through the walls of the cylinder then the explosion will not expand as much or as fast as it might because the energy has found another way out of the cylinder. If the walls are colder because the water outside them is colder then you will lose a lot of heat through the walls.
One of the reasons that a "Hemi", with its hemispherical combustion chamber, is a good design is that a sphere has the best surface area to volume ratio of any shape. The more surface area you have the more heat you can lose through the walls.
From a purely thermodynamic perspective you want the engine walls to run as hot as possible so that no heat is lost through them. If two neighboring substances are at the same temperature neither will transfer heat to the other. Unfortunately, the materials that an engine is made out of cannot operate at combustion temperatures for long periods of time and thus there are cooling passages built into the engine. The cylinder walls must be cooled to keep them from melting but the cooler that they are the more heat/power is lost out of them.
-Dan in Atlanta
A
Anonymous
Guest
I come back to this thread becouse I love this subject. I believe this is probably the biggest bandaid most people put on their motors and gold plated to boot. So here's another thought.
Let's say the water passages from the factory are 1" round. Some smart guy figured that 1" rd holes would maintain the temperature at 180d all day long but just to be sure he adds a stat that will bring the temp up faster in the winter and assures that that temp is what the motor runs at becouse some other smart guy said his fuel burned better at that temp.
Now good'ol Earl get's his motor out of the trunk of a 64 after sitting there for 40 years and throws it into the family Pick-up and it over heats. He replaces everything including a 4 speed water pump and a 10 row radiator. Hmmm.... flushed the system 10 times, clean as a wistle. So he desides a 20 row... Any way I could have the Potomac river flowing through my block but if it's crapped up, clogged, reduced water flow, holding the heat in, scaled with rust the heat can't get to the water or the point of Transfer no matter how many square miles of radiator area I have. The temperature sender is in the block, pull it out next time and see what the water looks like there or how much rust and scale is located at that point. It will be a good indication as to how much trash is still in there.
I know commercial companies sell a descaling and rust removal cleaner for cooling towers and piping in office buildings. I wonder what that would do to the inside of a water cooled engine??
Just thinking,
Steve
Let's say the water passages from the factory are 1" round. Some smart guy figured that 1" rd holes would maintain the temperature at 180d all day long but just to be sure he adds a stat that will bring the temp up faster in the winter and assures that that temp is what the motor runs at becouse some other smart guy said his fuel burned better at that temp.
Now good'ol Earl get's his motor out of the trunk of a 64 after sitting there for 40 years and throws it into the family Pick-up and it over heats. He replaces everything including a 4 speed water pump and a 10 row radiator. Hmmm.... flushed the system 10 times, clean as a wistle. So he desides a 20 row... Any way I could have the Potomac river flowing through my block but if it's crapped up, clogged, reduced water flow, holding the heat in, scaled with rust the heat can't get to the water or the point of Transfer no matter how many square miles of radiator area I have. The temperature sender is in the block, pull it out next time and see what the water looks like there or how much rust and scale is located at that point. It will be a good indication as to how much trash is still in there.
I know commercial companies sell a descaling and rust removal cleaner for cooling towers and piping in office buildings. I wonder what that would do to the inside of a water cooled engine??
Just thinking,
Steve
A
Anonymous
Guest
Please Rickrench this isn't personal but it get's the point across.
From another thread on Electric Fans.
I've run the gamut of cooling options in the 62 Squire.
1. Stock two core rad, 195 deg T-stat, 4 blade stock fan, short nose H20pump.
Result: Overheat at idle in traffic.
2. Stock two core rad, 180 deg T-stat, 4 blade stock fan, short nose H20pump.
Result: Overheat at idle in traffic.
3. Three core rad, 180 deg T-stat, 6 blade "low profile" fan, long nose A/C H20 pump.
Result: Very hot at idle in traffic.
4. Swap to T5 transmission.
Result: Hot at idle in traffic.
5. As above, plus thermostat controlled 12 inch electric pusher, plus manual override.
Result: Warm, but still ok at idle in traffic.
6. Three core rad, two twelve inch pullers, no engine driven fan.
Result: Warm, but still ok at idle in traffic..
7. Very very large twin core aluminum crossflow radiator, 195 deg T-stat, shortnose cast impeller H20 pump, BIG six blade engine driven fan on one inch spacer, 5" H20 pulley (12% faster).
Result: 195 degrees, all the time, no matter what. This is what I'm using in both of my falcons now.
Rick(wrench)
Item 7 was the first mention of a Cast Iron W/P by the way.
Steve
From another thread on Electric Fans.
I've run the gamut of cooling options in the 62 Squire.
1. Stock two core rad, 195 deg T-stat, 4 blade stock fan, short nose H20pump.
Result: Overheat at idle in traffic.
2. Stock two core rad, 180 deg T-stat, 4 blade stock fan, short nose H20pump.
Result: Overheat at idle in traffic.
3. Three core rad, 180 deg T-stat, 6 blade "low profile" fan, long nose A/C H20 pump.
Result: Very hot at idle in traffic.
4. Swap to T5 transmission.
Result: Hot at idle in traffic.
5. As above, plus thermostat controlled 12 inch electric pusher, plus manual override.
Result: Warm, but still ok at idle in traffic.
6. Three core rad, two twelve inch pullers, no engine driven fan.
Result: Warm, but still ok at idle in traffic..
7. Very very large twin core aluminum crossflow radiator, 195 deg T-stat, shortnose cast impeller H20 pump, BIG six blade engine driven fan on one inch spacer, 5" H20 pulley (12% faster).
Result: 195 degrees, all the time, no matter what. This is what I'm using in both of my falcons now.
Rick(wrench)
Item 7 was the first mention of a Cast Iron W/P by the way.
Steve
A
Anonymous
Guest
I know some of the larger water treatment chemical companies like Nalco used to sell flush kits that contained acid etc to clean stationary and commercial diesel truck engines. I had an old guy tell me to put a cap full of Muriatic acid (HCl) in the coolant to help flush it out. I gave it a try but I decided to use more. I can't remember how much, but it was too much. Once it got up to temp, that radiator cap was relieving like crazy, spitting and bucking. One of my dumber moves. It cleaned up things good, but probably too good. I ended up with a leak somewhere but I don't remember where. If there is a weak spot, the acid will find it. The radiator was relatively new, but had scale in it from the local hard water. The acid dissolves the rust and the scale. I would do it again, but stay with a cap or two of acid. You can always add more later. Flush with clean water again, drain, and refill with distilled water.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I thought about the Muriatic Acid but it took a lot of controls to keep me from hirting myself. For some reason the Nalco product name rings a bell. I'd remove the hoses from the rad in eather case and flush to a clean bucket (maybe a plastic keg bucket) high and low hose so the circulation is maintained and the crap goes to the bottom of the bucket not in the rad with the stat out. I back flushed once and got chunks the size of peas. The cost and effort is a whole lot less than what I've seen people do to put that "bandaid" on. I run the 3 row Rad in a 64 Econoline DogHouse, a box about 3 inchs bigger than the motor including the top and closed on 4 sides and bottom belly pan and it runs at 180 all but the worst conditions, 90+ sitting in traffic for extended times. Go figure. I'd kill to have all that space you guys have. 
Thanks,
Steve
Thanks,
Steve
"my engine runs hot. I've changed everything six times and it still overheats! help!"
Heard it many times on this forum. Gentlemen (and ladies), the newest 200 out there is over 22 years old. They rust. There is all sorts of garbage in the block. You must clean it out. If you don't, the biggest radiator out there will not help. Electric fans will not help (and may be worse). Watter wetter will not help. Lower temp thermostats will not help.
Here's a pic of what came out of my 200 crossflow block with just a little digging. Probably five times that much debris was in there, all total. If you have chronic overheating problems despite new equipment and a good head gasket, you probably have stuff like this in your block and head. It's a tough chore, but it has to come out.
Heard it many times on this forum. Gentlemen (and ladies), the newest 200 out there is over 22 years old. They rust. There is all sorts of garbage in the block. You must clean it out. If you don't, the biggest radiator out there will not help. Electric fans will not help (and may be worse). Watter wetter will not help. Lower temp thermostats will not help.
Here's a pic of what came out of my 200 crossflow block with just a little digging. Probably five times that much debris was in there, all total. If you have chronic overheating problems despite new equipment and a good head gasket, you probably have stuff like this in your block and head. It's a tough chore, but it has to come out.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Thinking back, it may have been the heater core that sprang a leak. Anyway, if you use the acid, make sure you have a longer, secure vent hose off of the cap. As the acid heats up, reaction rates increase, and heat is also released with the reactions. Gas is released as part of the reactions with the scale, hence the spitting hose. I may not do the acid on a system in poor shape, but as a maintenance treatment it should be OK. I work as an engineer in the oilpatch and have probably been involved with pumping millions of gallons of acid over the years. The first time I acidized the car, I did not expect to have the reaction it did, since it was a relatively new radiator. But I guess it and the block had more scale than I envisioned. Definately wear eye and hand protection, and if in doubt, don't do it. You may even want to neutralize the system after the treatment. Some of the commercial products include a neutralizer.
Most of the accumulation is at the rear of the block and on the left side, opposite of the core plugs. Hard to get to, but with some persistance and digging with a piece of thin rod, you can get most of it.
To clear the rest, I used a high pressure washer. Stuck the nozzle in the coolant hole and blasted away. I finished with an overnight soaking with pool cleaning acid (muriatic). That took care of the rest.
Nearly every engine I've taken apart had some degree of casting sand, rust, scale, or dirt in the cooling passages. It will haunt you and cause cooling problems.
To clear the rest, I used a high pressure washer. Stuck the nozzle in the coolant hole and blasted away. I finished with an overnight soaking with pool cleaning acid (muriatic). That took care of the rest.
Nearly every engine I've taken apart had some degree of casting sand, rust, scale, or dirt in the cooling passages. It will haunt you and cause cooling problems.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Well, my engine only has about 500 miles on a rebuild which was done by a very experienced builder. I'm sure he hot tanked and cleaned the block very well. Judging from his insistance that I get the tin squeaky clean I'm sure he cleaned the block very well.
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