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Anonymous
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lightnin-boy":3u7julmt said:
approximately 70lbs(32kg) that's head and intake
what's up with argentine heads?
- Thread starter mattri
- Start date
approximately 70lbs(32kg) that's head and intake
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Anonymous
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William,
rah rah!!!! sounds like you really believe in the oz head, I think there are several in stock at the moment I hope one ends up in your hands. then once you get it, you can go ahead and spend another >$500 reconditioning and upgrading.
hey did you know that other than the header, everything on the new SP castings can be replaced with US versions? new SP exhaust headers, costs a tad more($285) but they are available. for many years these SP heads were used on race cars which produced greater than 300HP, you did know that right? And all this done with only a single 2bbl weber.
Convince you? Why should I, it sounds like you've already made up your mind.
Feliz Navidad.
rah rah!!!! sounds like you really believe in the oz head, I think there are several in stock at the moment I hope one ends up in your hands. then once you get it, you can go ahead and spend another >$500 reconditioning and upgrading.
hey did you know that other than the header, everything on the new SP castings can be replaced with US versions? new SP exhaust headers, costs a tad more($285) but they are available. for many years these SP heads were used on race cars which produced greater than 300HP, you did know that right? And all this done with only a single 2bbl weber.
Convince you? Why should I, it sounds like you've already made up your mind.
Feliz Navidad.
A
Anonymous
Guest
PM bdj66 and he´ll pass his recent specs along to you. I am still waiting to see flow data from the Aussie heads.wsa111":2lqzvvsk said:
What exactly would you like to know about them? We´ve been discussing them on these forums for over 4 years.wsa111":2lqzvvsk said:
That´s also a good thing. Their exhaust ports stink.wsa111":2lqzvvsk said:
What kind of products? The headers? The Holley carb adapters that position the carb 90* off?wsa111":2lqzvvsk said:
I see advantages and disadvantages on both sides. But some of your statements are misleading IMHO. Here's the differences I've noted. I will try to state them objectively, but of course, I have a bias oppinion.
The biggest difference is the Argie heads are readily available, which is not true with the OZ heads. They are in fact, almost impossible to locate nowdays, and will only get worse. Which also drives the price up, unfortunately.
It is my understanding that SP stands for "SPRINT" not "Special Performance" as explained to me by the foundry.
Headers for the Argie head are available here in the US (produced by the same manufacturer that makes Clifford's) but at a higher cost. On a side note: the headers that were posted in the pics don't appear to be mandrel bent and the bends look collapsed, or is this an optical illusion? I am assuming these were headers produced in AR, not here in the US, and imported?
The OZ heads may need to be rebuilt at an additional cost, but you can put in the oversized valves at the same time. Only the guides need to be replace to use all "American" shelf products (including headers), which is a minimal expense. The Argie heads use the same stock valve sizes as US heads, so you would still have to pay to have the oversized valves and new larger seats installed. Side note: What you spend to get new headers for the Argie head, can be spent on the rebuild, off setting some of the cost as well. Providing you already have headers on your existing setup. Otherwise this is a mute point.
As for the carb being turned 90*, this may or may not be an issue. Ford (both in AR and OZ) saw fit to install it that way on the Argie ME, the OZ 250-2V, and even into the latter Crossflows. So did Redline, Lynx (and others) who produce performance intake manifolds. Is there any research to support your therories? Are there any articles published to this end? I know we have discussed this in the forum, but I'm just wondering if there is any documentation on how it effects performance.
Your flow numbers may be wonderful (we are all waiting to see the numbers posted, but you refuse to do so publicly for some strange reason) yet we have to remember that these heads were professionally ported and polished. I would venture to say that the OZ heads would flow nearly as well, given the same attention, and quite possibly better on the intake side. Rather than all talk and conjecture, I challenge you (see below) to prove me wrong? I will admit that the exhaust side should flow better, hopefully much better. But would still like to see the numbers. I can only think of one reason for you not to post them, but of course, thats your decission.
I have posted the flow numbers on a OZ head (in its stock form) several times over the past few years. And they are posted in my website as well, for everyone to see as I was proud to post the results. Yet, as we have discussed in this forum several times over the past years, flow numbers can be deceiving. The same head, tested on different days, by different operators, under various conditions, on different machines, can yield varied results to a large degree.
You make it clear that the Argies have been getting 300 plus HP for years. But with what other mods? Are you implying that just an Argie head, the header, and a 2V intake will push our sixes up over the 300 mark, or that it simply has the potential to produce it? Heck, even a log head has the potential, but its not naturally aspirated is it? I would venture to say, the same engine with the same mods and with an OZ head (given the same attention), would produce nearly the same. But again, that's conjecture and is yet to be proven. I would like to see flow numbers on a stock Argie head, and not one that has been re-worked to the max, so as to compare apples to apples.
Bottom line here, in my opinion, the two heads are fairly equal in performance, with an edge going to the Argie head due to the split exhaust. It has been said that port dividers will improve this situation on the US and OZ heads, but has yet to be proven from my understanding. Some of our members have even removed them, for various reason. Altho, I do think they assist in reducing header gasket failures. Of course, the Argie head elliminates this totally. The down side with an Argie head, is having to purchase and install a new exhaust system (which may have already been done at a costly expense).
Taking this a step father, I would like to see an Argie head and an OZ head both in stock form flow tested by the same operator, on the same machine, under equal conditions. Then have them ported and polish professionally, and re-test again. This would settle the debate once and for all. I'm up for it, and would be happy to supply an OZ head. Thus am extending a challenge to you to supply an Argie head. And I'll have it done, so it won't cost you a penny. Of course you are invited to see the results for yoursleves.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm all for the Argie heads. So much so, that I have been talking with Inliner over the past few months on the possibilities of importing these in mass quantities. Primarily because the Argie heads are readily available and knowing the comparitively low cost on them. For the past year and a half, I have been working towards the goal of producing new 4V and 3x2V intakes (designed by a reputable company with years of proven experience), which will require a very large investment on my part. I am also looking into the possibilities of producing a quality header using one of the largest US manufacturers (known for their quality), and at a lower price too boot. Obviously, if I were not convinced as to the performance gains of the Argie heads, I would not invest the future of FSPP in them.
I just don't understand why you are all so intent on slamming the OZ heads, other than to support your own personal ventures? Which happen to be the same as those of Ford Six Performance Parts and myself. I have referred customers to Clifford, and they to me. Which is the way business should be conducted, as it is in the best interest of the hobby and all involved. This is my primary concern and the reason FSPP was founded in the first place. Quality, service, and value. Sure, I've had my problems and made some errors. But I've also done everything in my power to assure my customers were happy in their dealings with FSPP.
Slamming the competition, without or without proof, is poor business practice (and risky). I pride myself and my company on quality parts, and let my services and prices speak for themselves. FSPP has a loyal customer base as a result, and word of mouth carries the FSPP reputation, and it's future. Many thanks to William & the rest of you.
As for the challenge, if you accept, lets get on with it. I think it would be great to put this to bed once and for all. And compare apples to apples.
Have a Merry Christmas and a Very Happy New Year.
The biggest difference is the Argie heads are readily available, which is not true with the OZ heads. They are in fact, almost impossible to locate nowdays, and will only get worse. Which also drives the price up, unfortunately.
It is my understanding that SP stands for "SPRINT" not "Special Performance" as explained to me by the foundry.
Headers for the Argie head are available here in the US (produced by the same manufacturer that makes Clifford's) but at a higher cost. On a side note: the headers that were posted in the pics don't appear to be mandrel bent and the bends look collapsed, or is this an optical illusion? I am assuming these were headers produced in AR, not here in the US, and imported?
The OZ heads may need to be rebuilt at an additional cost, but you can put in the oversized valves at the same time. Only the guides need to be replace to use all "American" shelf products (including headers), which is a minimal expense. The Argie heads use the same stock valve sizes as US heads, so you would still have to pay to have the oversized valves and new larger seats installed. Side note: What you spend to get new headers for the Argie head, can be spent on the rebuild, off setting some of the cost as well. Providing you already have headers on your existing setup. Otherwise this is a mute point.
As for the carb being turned 90*, this may or may not be an issue. Ford (both in AR and OZ) saw fit to install it that way on the Argie ME, the OZ 250-2V, and even into the latter Crossflows. So did Redline, Lynx (and others) who produce performance intake manifolds. Is there any research to support your therories? Are there any articles published to this end? I know we have discussed this in the forum, but I'm just wondering if there is any documentation on how it effects performance.
Your flow numbers may be wonderful (we are all waiting to see the numbers posted, but you refuse to do so publicly for some strange reason) yet we have to remember that these heads were professionally ported and polished. I would venture to say that the OZ heads would flow nearly as well, given the same attention, and quite possibly better on the intake side. Rather than all talk and conjecture, I challenge you (see below) to prove me wrong? I will admit that the exhaust side should flow better, hopefully much better. But would still like to see the numbers. I can only think of one reason for you not to post them, but of course, thats your decission.
I have posted the flow numbers on a OZ head (in its stock form) several times over the past few years. And they are posted in my website as well, for everyone to see as I was proud to post the results. Yet, as we have discussed in this forum several times over the past years, flow numbers can be deceiving. The same head, tested on different days, by different operators, under various conditions, on different machines, can yield varied results to a large degree.
You make it clear that the Argies have been getting 300 plus HP for years. But with what other mods? Are you implying that just an Argie head, the header, and a 2V intake will push our sixes up over the 300 mark, or that it simply has the potential to produce it? Heck, even a log head has the potential, but its not naturally aspirated is it? I would venture to say, the same engine with the same mods and with an OZ head (given the same attention), would produce nearly the same. But again, that's conjecture and is yet to be proven. I would like to see flow numbers on a stock Argie head, and not one that has been re-worked to the max, so as to compare apples to apples.
Bottom line here, in my opinion, the two heads are fairly equal in performance, with an edge going to the Argie head due to the split exhaust. It has been said that port dividers will improve this situation on the US and OZ heads, but has yet to be proven from my understanding. Some of our members have even removed them, for various reason. Altho, I do think they assist in reducing header gasket failures. Of course, the Argie head elliminates this totally. The down side with an Argie head, is having to purchase and install a new exhaust system (which may have already been done at a costly expense).
Taking this a step father, I would like to see an Argie head and an OZ head both in stock form flow tested by the same operator, on the same machine, under equal conditions. Then have them ported and polish professionally, and re-test again. This would settle the debate once and for all. I'm up for it, and would be happy to supply an OZ head. Thus am extending a challenge to you to supply an Argie head. And I'll have it done, so it won't cost you a penny. Of course you are invited to see the results for yoursleves.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm all for the Argie heads. So much so, that I have been talking with Inliner over the past few months on the possibilities of importing these in mass quantities. Primarily because the Argie heads are readily available and knowing the comparitively low cost on them. For the past year and a half, I have been working towards the goal of producing new 4V and 3x2V intakes (designed by a reputable company with years of proven experience), which will require a very large investment on my part. I am also looking into the possibilities of producing a quality header using one of the largest US manufacturers (known for their quality), and at a lower price too boot. Obviously, if I were not convinced as to the performance gains of the Argie heads, I would not invest the future of FSPP in them.
I just don't understand why you are all so intent on slamming the OZ heads, other than to support your own personal ventures? Which happen to be the same as those of Ford Six Performance Parts and myself. I have referred customers to Clifford, and they to me. Which is the way business should be conducted, as it is in the best interest of the hobby and all involved. This is my primary concern and the reason FSPP was founded in the first place. Quality, service, and value. Sure, I've had my problems and made some errors. But I've also done everything in my power to assure my customers were happy in their dealings with FSPP.
Slamming the competition, without or without proof, is poor business practice (and risky). I pride myself and my company on quality parts, and let my services and prices speak for themselves. FSPP has a loyal customer base as a result, and word of mouth carries the FSPP reputation, and it's future. Many thanks to William & the rest of you.
As for the challenge, if you accept, lets get on with it. I think it would be great to put this to bed once and for all. And compare apples to apples.
Have a Merry Christmas and a Very Happy New Year.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hello,
It's Christmas day, and I´m still pissed because I didn't get the money a forum member still owes me for more than a year, and now, understandably, some forum membmers are making questions about the Argentine heads, and if they're real or just rank along with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
First of all: SP stands for "Special Performance", not "Sprint" like has been mistakenly insisted upon. Actually, the "SP"
package was not only used by the Falcon Sprint, but also by the Futura SP, and a completely different different car, the Ford Taunus Coupe, wich had an "SP" option, called in fact, "SP5", and comprised of a special edition OHC 2.3 Lima engine, with simultaneous 36-36 Solex, hotter cam, and a 5 five speed tranny. SP was the denomination used by Ford Argentina back then to denote a high-performance engine, like "HO" was used in the States. In fact, MY Owner's manual (I can take pictures of it if there's any doubts) says clearly that the "3.6 SP" engine was part of the package only available with the Sprint Falcon.
Let me state, that the SP head and intake is a direct evloution of the Aussie 250-2v. The SP and Aussie heads are closely related. In fact, Ford Argentina took the original 250 2v, and redesigned it, with help from oneof the most reputable engine builders here. What they wanted was very simple: to beat the Chevy 250 and the AMC Tornado (wich, by the way, was extensively modified in Argentina to the tune of 245 net sae, street going HP back in the 60's). They achieved that goal.
I had the opportunity to get some first hand information form the people actually involved on the SP head development process, back on a TV interview. They basically adressed what they considered the weakest link on the 250 2v head: exhaust port arrangement. The simple fact of the existance of a port divider proves this. And of course, the factory (Ford Argentina) didn't want to use such an unreliable device, so they simply changed the port arrangement altogether.
I can't bash on the Aussie product. Basically because it's a very good product, as many of those that are being sold thru other places. I also bought from Clifford, and instead of this kind of petty arguments, I would like to see more cooperation between sources, to help establish a market, instead of bashing each other's good products. That if you want to talk about bussiness ethics.
Getting back to the carburetor issue: it's very simple. The factory australian 250 v manifold and the argentine Max Econo intake are designed for Weber/Solex carburetors, wich have shafts throttle shafts running parallel to the crank. Putting an adapter for Holley on either manifold will result in poor fuel distribution. The solution is the SP intake, it allows the Holley's throttle shaft to run parallel to the crank, resulting in an even mixture distribution. To say more, the runners shape and plenum are all optimized for the same purpose, because that's another place where the engineers saw room for improvement, when engineering the SP.
Well, I not only know about these heads, because I tried to export them and learned a lot in the process, but also because I have owned two Falcons that were equipped with them. First of all, let's see some facts, beyond the flowbench numbers, that are not questionable, as they are backed up by 30 years of racing in a category so popular, that is not unusual to witness spectators in excess of 50.000 souls, (argentine population is 36 million - you make the math comparing to your typical NASCAR race) even considering many of those races are being held not in the Capitol city, but sometimes hundreds of miles away. A racing class that's based only on inline six powered cars, that were out of production for the last 15 years.
Just for the record, argentine engine builders, car designers, and racers, are not exactly uncapable. Just to mention a few: Juan Manuel Fangio; Alejandro De Tomaso (remember the Pantera); Pagani (builder of the Zonda car, wich is one of the best examples of a supercar); and Oreste Berta (who is currently building one of the most powerful 2 liter Ford engines for limited class competition). You can search on the web for "Turismo Carretera" and you'll find proof of it. Simple facts about a TC Ford engine: Displacement limited to 3.0 liters; single 40-40 Weber carb; 9.5:1 compression, factory intake, factory head (wich they weren't allowed to modify beyond certain limits), plus a device to limit intake air volume. Horsepower? around 350.
Not only that. Too bad you are so far away, otherwise, you could witness some drag racing action here, included some Falcons running mid 12's, with a single carb, NO NOS, NO TURBO, NO BLOWER, NO FANCY DRAG SLICKS. For the record, these are stock 221 SP engine numbers, that I took directly out of my 1980 Ford owner's manual: 166 hp @ 4500 rpm, 8.1:1 compression, single 350 cfm Holley Carb; 8º BTDC initial timing (we had only 85 octane gas back then). With a four speed, weighing 2900 lbs, 175/SR 14 tires; 3.07 final gear. 0 to 62 mph: 10 seconds. Top speed: 110 mph with the CX of a brick. The Futura SP actually was a little faster in the 0 to 62 mph: a tad over 9 seconds. I personally gave a 4.6L Mustang GT a run for its money with my nearly stock Sprint (only a carb modification and a performance coil). So, Im not bashing on anyone else's stuff. The Aussie product was and is great (after all, the SP is a child of it). But you have to understand one thing: the US market never showed interest for a hipo six, they went with the V8s instead. The Aussie and Argie history is completely different.
Let´s talk about flow numbers. They are only indicative of a head's potential. In fact, many racers don't quite believe in them. Flowbench numbers are based on a continuous stream of flow. Real engine action is different. There are things as pulses, interference, atomization and ram effect that are not taken into consideration by this method. More than that, flowbench numbers usually speak in favour of high rpm numbers, while it is the torque curve that matters the most on a street or street/strip application. So, besides the flowbench numbers, Im trying to bring you proof behind the apparent myth of a bunch of spics doing something worth of interest. Running proof of it? Well, if it wasn't for events like these forum member (83Fairmont200i6 - aka: Brian Rogers Jr.) stealing money out of my pocket, I could have some now. But I had a lot of fun with those engines, that, BTW, were solid as a brick (the SP came from the factory with different rod bolts, upgraded crank, bearings, and a plethora of some other minor mods). Not the work of some lazy gauchos taking sunbaths in the afternoon next to a tree in the Pampas, uh?
It's Christmas day, and I´m still pissed because I didn't get the money a forum member still owes me for more than a year, and now, understandably, some forum membmers are making questions about the Argentine heads, and if they're real or just rank along with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
First of all: SP stands for "Special Performance", not "Sprint" like has been mistakenly insisted upon. Actually, the "SP"
package was not only used by the Falcon Sprint, but also by the Futura SP, and a completely different different car, the Ford Taunus Coupe, wich had an "SP" option, called in fact, "SP5", and comprised of a special edition OHC 2.3 Lima engine, with simultaneous 36-36 Solex, hotter cam, and a 5 five speed tranny. SP was the denomination used by Ford Argentina back then to denote a high-performance engine, like "HO" was used in the States. In fact, MY Owner's manual (I can take pictures of it if there's any doubts) says clearly that the "3.6 SP" engine was part of the package only available with the Sprint Falcon.
Let me state, that the SP head and intake is a direct evloution of the Aussie 250-2v. The SP and Aussie heads are closely related. In fact, Ford Argentina took the original 250 2v, and redesigned it, with help from oneof the most reputable engine builders here. What they wanted was very simple: to beat the Chevy 250 and the AMC Tornado (wich, by the way, was extensively modified in Argentina to the tune of 245 net sae, street going HP back in the 60's). They achieved that goal.
I had the opportunity to get some first hand information form the people actually involved on the SP head development process, back on a TV interview. They basically adressed what they considered the weakest link on the 250 2v head: exhaust port arrangement. The simple fact of the existance of a port divider proves this. And of course, the factory (Ford Argentina) didn't want to use such an unreliable device, so they simply changed the port arrangement altogether.
I can't bash on the Aussie product. Basically because it's a very good product, as many of those that are being sold thru other places. I also bought from Clifford, and instead of this kind of petty arguments, I would like to see more cooperation between sources, to help establish a market, instead of bashing each other's good products. That if you want to talk about bussiness ethics.
Getting back to the carburetor issue: it's very simple. The factory australian 250 v manifold and the argentine Max Econo intake are designed for Weber/Solex carburetors, wich have shafts throttle shafts running parallel to the crank. Putting an adapter for Holley on either manifold will result in poor fuel distribution. The solution is the SP intake, it allows the Holley's throttle shaft to run parallel to the crank, resulting in an even mixture distribution. To say more, the runners shape and plenum are all optimized for the same purpose, because that's another place where the engineers saw room for improvement, when engineering the SP.
Well, I not only know about these heads, because I tried to export them and learned a lot in the process, but also because I have owned two Falcons that were equipped with them. First of all, let's see some facts, beyond the flowbench numbers, that are not questionable, as they are backed up by 30 years of racing in a category so popular, that is not unusual to witness spectators in excess of 50.000 souls, (argentine population is 36 million - you make the math comparing to your typical NASCAR race) even considering many of those races are being held not in the Capitol city, but sometimes hundreds of miles away. A racing class that's based only on inline six powered cars, that were out of production for the last 15 years.
Just for the record, argentine engine builders, car designers, and racers, are not exactly uncapable. Just to mention a few: Juan Manuel Fangio; Alejandro De Tomaso (remember the Pantera); Pagani (builder of the Zonda car, wich is one of the best examples of a supercar); and Oreste Berta (who is currently building one of the most powerful 2 liter Ford engines for limited class competition). You can search on the web for "Turismo Carretera" and you'll find proof of it. Simple facts about a TC Ford engine: Displacement limited to 3.0 liters; single 40-40 Weber carb; 9.5:1 compression, factory intake, factory head (wich they weren't allowed to modify beyond certain limits), plus a device to limit intake air volume. Horsepower? around 350.
Not only that. Too bad you are so far away, otherwise, you could witness some drag racing action here, included some Falcons running mid 12's, with a single carb, NO NOS, NO TURBO, NO BLOWER, NO FANCY DRAG SLICKS. For the record, these are stock 221 SP engine numbers, that I took directly out of my 1980 Ford owner's manual: 166 hp @ 4500 rpm, 8.1:1 compression, single 350 cfm Holley Carb; 8º BTDC initial timing (we had only 85 octane gas back then). With a four speed, weighing 2900 lbs, 175/SR 14 tires; 3.07 final gear. 0 to 62 mph: 10 seconds. Top speed: 110 mph with the CX of a brick. The Futura SP actually was a little faster in the 0 to 62 mph: a tad over 9 seconds. I personally gave a 4.6L Mustang GT a run for its money with my nearly stock Sprint (only a carb modification and a performance coil). So, Im not bashing on anyone else's stuff. The Aussie product was and is great (after all, the SP is a child of it). But you have to understand one thing: the US market never showed interest for a hipo six, they went with the V8s instead. The Aussie and Argie history is completely different.
Let´s talk about flow numbers. They are only indicative of a head's potential. In fact, many racers don't quite believe in them. Flowbench numbers are based on a continuous stream of flow. Real engine action is different. There are things as pulses, interference, atomization and ram effect that are not taken into consideration by this method. More than that, flowbench numbers usually speak in favour of high rpm numbers, while it is the torque curve that matters the most on a street or street/strip application. So, besides the flowbench numbers, Im trying to bring you proof behind the apparent myth of a bunch of spics doing something worth of interest. Running proof of it? Well, if it wasn't for events like these forum member (83Fairmont200i6 - aka: Brian Rogers Jr.) stealing money out of my pocket, I could have some now. But I had a lot of fun with those engines, that, BTW, were solid as a brick (the SP came from the factory with different rod bolts, upgraded crank, bearings, and a plethora of some other minor mods). Not the work of some lazy gauchos taking sunbaths in the afternoon next to a tree in the Pampas, uh?
Martin,
Thanks for the diplomatic response. That's what was clearly needed in all respects. And for stating the facts based on your valuable knowledge on the SP heads.
Also for clearing up the issue of what SP actually stands for. I was merely stating what I was told by a representative of the foundry. Although it is quite possible I misunderstood, as my Spanish is non-existent at best. Altho, isn't the part number merely stated as a Ford six cylinder Sprint head?
EDIT: I just notice that even Inliner quoted SP as standing for Sprint in this very topic.
I have been trying to work with John for several weeks to get these imported to the states in large quantities (which will assist in bringing the prices down). It would be foolish of me to bash a product I intend to carry, and that definitely was not my intent. I just think we need to compare apples to apples, not oranges. So that all those involved can make their decisions base on actual facts rather than misleading assumptions (on both parts). Both products have there place, and FSPP intends to offer both. That is, as long as the OZ heads are available as they are getting quite scarce.
I agree with you whole heartedly on working together. But I think you can clearly see why I posted what I did. Now lets move forward and bring these guys a great product at a reasonable price. Which can be achieved if we work together. But, I'd still like to see the flow numbers posted publicly for all to see. I think all our members would agree.
:
Thanks for the diplomatic response. That's what was clearly needed in all respects. And for stating the facts based on your valuable knowledge on the SP heads.
Also for clearing up the issue of what SP actually stands for. I was merely stating what I was told by a representative of the foundry. Although it is quite possible I misunderstood, as my Spanish is non-existent at best. Altho, isn't the part number merely stated as a Ford six cylinder Sprint head?
EDIT: I just notice that even Inliner quoted SP as standing for Sprint in this very topic.
I have been trying to work with John for several weeks to get these imported to the states in large quantities (which will assist in bringing the prices down). It would be foolish of me to bash a product I intend to carry, and that definitely was not my intent. I just think we need to compare apples to apples, not oranges. So that all those involved can make their decisions base on actual facts rather than misleading assumptions (on both parts). Both products have there place, and FSPP intends to offer both. That is, as long as the OZ heads are available as they are getting quite scarce.
I agree with you whole heartedly on working together. But I think you can clearly see why I posted what I did. Now lets move forward and bring these guys a great product at a reasonable price. Which can be achieved if we work together. But, I'd still like to see the flow numbers posted publicly for all to see. I think all our members would agree.
:
A
Anonymous
Guest
Mike,
You have email.
The foundry refers to these as ¨Sprint cylinder heads¨. You are correct. They are mistaken.
As for the SP flow numbers, they aren´t mine to post. I´m with you though about making them public. I don´t understand the logic of keeping them a secret.
As for the flow numbers on your site for the Oz head - at what lift and flow pressure are those rated from?
You have email.
The foundry refers to these as ¨Sprint cylinder heads¨. You are correct. They are mistaken.
As for the SP flow numbers, they aren´t mine to post. I´m with you though about making them public. I don´t understand the logic of keeping them a secret.
As for the flow numbers on your site for the Oz head - at what lift and flow pressure are those rated from?
Good point about the flow numbers, I'll have to dig them up and post them. If I can find them, as it was over two years ago. But I think I know where they are. I'll look tomorrow. I also heard once long ago, that you or someone (don't recall) had numbers for a stock log?
I have a machine shop locally that rebuilds the OZ heads for me occasionally, and he has agreed to flow test all three at no charge, as a personal favor. I would love to see the results on stock heads, all on the same machine and preformed by the same operator. As well as a modified log such as Dougs. It would be very interesting info. I think the Argie head would take first, with the OZ head a close second. But it would be interesting to know how a modified log and stock log compare as well.
As for the flow numbers, I've had several PM's from members asking why they are keeping them a secrect. Of course, I have no idea why. I know if it were me, and I was so proud, I couldn't restrain myself from posting them.
I have a machine shop locally that rebuilds the OZ heads for me occasionally, and he has agreed to flow test all three at no charge, as a personal favor. I would love to see the results on stock heads, all on the same machine and preformed by the same operator. As well as a modified log such as Dougs. It would be very interesting info. I think the Argie head would take first, with the OZ head a close second. But it would be interesting to know how a modified log and stock log compare as well.
As for the flow numbers, I've had several PM's from members asking why they are keeping them a secrect. Of course, I have no idea why. I know if it were me, and I was so proud, I couldn't restrain myself from posting them.
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Anonymous
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Mike,
Certainly, doing all the tests on the same bench, on the same day, with the same operator is the only way to go. I hope to get an SP for you soon. I guess you can come up with a virgin 2V?
I do have before and after numbers for a C9 ¨M¨ head I ported with OHChicken years ago, but those are back in Texas.
Certainly, doing all the tests on the same bench, on the same day, with the same operator is the only way to go. I hope to get an SP for you soon. I guess you can come up with a virgin 2V?
I do have before and after numbers for a C9 ¨M¨ head I ported with OHChicken years ago, but those are back in Texas.
I have a virgin OZ head sitting in my shop presently. I'll hang on to it, rather than selling it right away. Besides, the customer who buys it will be getting a completely rebuilt, ported and polished head, with oversized valves, ready to bolt on. And its flow numbers too boot.
I have a triple webber manifold and a triple SU setup complete with carbs and linkage (both recently purchased from JD), one of which could be offered with it for optimal performance gains. I may have a buyer for the SU setup already, but the triple Webber manifold is still available. I was going to offer them on e-bay, but will keep them for a complete package, along with a matched cam, and headers if needed. Guess I'll post it on e-bay once this is put to bed.
Does10, also has an OZ head now, and is developing a turbo header for them. Another option for those who already have OZ heads, or for future buyers. We could also produce a trubo header for the Argie heads if requested.
Won't be long before someone will be running a small six in the tens.
I have a triple webber manifold and a triple SU setup complete with carbs and linkage (both recently purchased from JD), one of which could be offered with it for optimal performance gains. I may have a buyer for the SU setup already, but the triple Webber manifold is still available. I was going to offer them on e-bay, but will keep them for a complete package, along with a matched cam, and headers if needed. Guess I'll post it on e-bay once this is put to bed.
Does10, also has an OZ head now, and is developing a turbo header for them. Another option for those who already have OZ heads, or for future buyers. We could also produce a trubo header for the Argie heads if requested.
Won't be long before someone will be running a small six in the tens.
Southern Cross Racer":107d9x2j said:
Indeed. The late Gene Berg of air-cooled VW fame was very outspoken about porters who simply hogged out heads until maximum flow on the bench was attained. HP numbers on a dyno are more meaningful, and winning races is more meaningful yet. At the time of his writings (circa 1990) he claimed and could demonstrate more HP per cubic inch on a naturally aspirated gasoline fueled engine than anyone else, and his engines won plenty of races, both drags and endurance runs.
Sometimes we Yanks tend to think that we are superior in every way, but, alas, it not true. Please don't give up on us yet
Joe
I can see the comparative flow rates as being a good reference point. Sure, not the be-all/end-all but a good start. Putting the heads on engines up to 20% smaller than they were designed for, maybe brings other considerations into play as well? Also, if the whole things was so simple start to finish, there would be a plain formula and the most precise adherent would win races.
I understand that some engines operate in excess of 100% calculated VE. That's probably where people like Berg had the edge - your "sixth sense" aspect. It's the same reason why two people can make a violin from the same timber to the same nominal specs, yet one instrument immensely outshines the other. That combination of minute, all but invisible, details that are almost intuitive to a skilled tradesman in any profession...
I would be really keen to see a flowbench shootout. Why would it hurt sales? It can't. Not everyone buys the highest flowing head. There will be more enduring patronage for people like Mike and John following assistance in making the best choice.
Regards, Adam.
I understand that some engines operate in excess of 100% calculated VE. That's probably where people like Berg had the edge - your "sixth sense" aspect. It's the same reason why two people can make a violin from the same timber to the same nominal specs, yet one instrument immensely outshines the other. That combination of minute, all but invisible, details that are almost intuitive to a skilled tradesman in any profession...
I would be really keen to see a flowbench shootout. Why would it hurt sales? It can't. Not everyone buys the highest flowing head. There will be more enduring patronage for people like Mike and John following assistance in making the best choice.
Regards, Adam.
Feliz, I appreciate some of you comments on aussi heads vs the argie heads. Both have their pros & cons. Since you represent the argie heads I would expect some positive characteristics from you as U represent the product you are backing. If you want to convince me to buy products endorsed by you, i will consider your comments as a reminder.
Remember even me & everyone else out in the forum is a potential customer, you sure don't sell your merchandise with sarcasism or negitive personnel comments.
Lets bury this discussion & move on to get better performance from our vehicles.
End of discussion, what you said is said & what i said is said. William
Remember even me & everyone else out in the forum is a potential customer, you sure don't sell your merchandise with sarcasism or negitive personnel comments.
Lets bury this discussion & move on to get better performance from our vehicles.
End of discussion, what you said is said & what i said is said. William
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Anonymous
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Your insinuation that the SPs have no prior positive history was offensive, I replied to defend to the SP. I am truly glad you like the 2v, I really think you should buy one. I had several 2v heads at one point and sold them all. As for me, I chose to go with the underutilized, under represented, underdog SP.
Sounds like some prefer the OZ head, some the Argie. From what I've heard of the flow numbers, both are fairly equal. With maybe, an edge going to the Argie by only a few percent. It will be very interesting to see the results of a heads up shoot out. I look forward to receiving the Argie head John has agreed to ship so this can get underway. Personally, I like both.
Both the Aussie and Argie heads are both still very rare here in the USA and I think there is enough room for both, besides they both flow way better than the log head that 99% of the inline owners are stuck using. The Aussie head is soo much better than the stock log head, that I think the reason anyone buys an Aussie over the Argie will come down to the cost and weather they can find one for themselves. Buying a Argie will come down to weather or not you want a new casting of the Argie and if you have the extra cash to lay out. 
Remember Horse Power cost money and weather you buy the Aussie or Argie you have to spend money to make HP, so the HP that you get from either head will depend on how much you spend and do to your head, block, exhaust, etc, etc.
So don't fight about which one is best, just get one or the other and let the games begin. If you are stuck with a log head just turbo it and you can get as much or more HP for the same buck$.
Remember Horse Power cost money and weather you buy the Aussie or Argie you have to spend money to make HP, so the HP that you get from either head will depend on how much you spend and do to your head, block, exhaust, etc, etc. So don't fight about which one is best, just get one or the other and let the games begin. If you are stuck with a log head just turbo it and you can get as much or more HP for the same buck$.
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Anonymous
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right onAllright now that the fireworks are over for now I am going to give you all my numbers, although I know most of you already know them somehow due to that word of mouth factor. Your right that factor is a good thing maybe even scary for business, huh. Proof that it wasn't really a big deal at all if I posted them or not. Besides, by the end of this thread most agreed that flow numbers don't mean much anyway. So, since I was called out to give these numbers out, by being questioned about my pride toward them, I feel I have the right to give my opinion too. Yes I am proud of these numbers and I will be even more proud of my engine when it is finished because of the Argie head. It's rare and in my opinion should be sold by people that know about them. I believed in the premise that founded FSPP when Clifford had us all on a hook, line, and sinker. That premise was to give all of us another way to get quality parts at a reasonable price with good service, I think AZ said that best in a post on this thread. The reasonable price factor became important to all of us after what became of Clifford. SO, my suggestion is that it would be best to have one side sell the AUssies and one side sell the Argies don't you think? That would keep prices down because the competition is against each product. Once one seller gets both products then the price will begin to climb mark my words. It happens all the time in business for whatever reason. SO if the main objective here is to do what is right for the members of this board, like it is so quick to be pointed out all the time, then the members should have a choice from different sellers so the price can stay down and the decision to buy one or the other is made by the consumer not the sellers. As a consumer I have often felt that what I buy is usually chosen for me due to the availability of parts and how much I pay is decided for me due to the business selling them. Anyway let me get off my soapbox now.
Here are the flow numbers for my fellow members it was done on a Superflow:
@ .200 Intake= 110cfm; Exhaust= 101.6cfm
@ .300 Intake= 150cfm; Exhaust= 123.7cfm
@ .400 Intake= 186cfm; Exhaust= 136.4cfm
@ .500 Intake= 198cfm; Exhaust= 139.5cfm
Now I am no expert on this so I couldn't analyze these numbers for you but I am sure people on the board can. I just know they are pretty good!!
Ford Six Inliners there is another choice!!
Here are the flow numbers for my fellow members it was done on a Superflow:
@ .200 Intake= 110cfm; Exhaust= 101.6cfm
@ .300 Intake= 150cfm; Exhaust= 123.7cfm
@ .400 Intake= 186cfm; Exhaust= 136.4cfm
@ .500 Intake= 198cfm; Exhaust= 139.5cfm
Now I am no expert on this so I couldn't analyze these numbers for you but I am sure people on the board can. I just know they are pretty good!!
Ford Six Inliners there is another choice!!
