Wrong rocker assembly, pushrods, lifters?...

[TucsonHooligan]

Looks like that article pertains to roller rockers that are adjustable. I have standard rockers that are non-adjustable. Or am I not getting from that article what I should have?

 

[wsa111]

Looks like that article pertains to roller rockers that are adjustable. I have standard rockers that are non-adjustable. Or am I not getting from that article what I should have?

Standard rockers still leave a footprint.
Adjustable rocker arms are a must so you can adjust proper lifter preload the easy way.
My personal opinion i would not even build an engine without roller rocker arms. But let your wallet be your guide. Bill

 

[bubba22349]

Ok, so I got ahold of an adjustable pushrod and am ready to determine the length I need. I know the lifter has to be on the low-end (back side) of the cam, so I put cylinder #1 on the compression stroke. This should have the cam on the low.

#1TDC & lifter on heel of cam

Question is, where does this put the play in the lifter? Without oil pressure, is the lifter fully bottomed out or at its peak?

Without a push rod and or any valve spring pressure acting on a lifter the inside pistion is held up against the top snap ring. There is a light spring inside lifter body so it will holds it at top of it's travel until oil pressure can take over.

When I find the length of the rod, do I need to add or subtract .0625? Since the motor doesn't run, I cant really "pump up" the lifters, can I? This is the last key to the puzzle, and I should be able to get this taken care of over the weekend

If you put the adjustable rod in and use (a light touch) you will feel when the piston in lifter starts to move (that’s zero lash or top position measurement) than you add that .0625 to the length. If you have no oil in the lifters yet you can keep lengthening the rod until you bottom the piston (this gives you total piston travel) take half of that. If you can find push rods made that are in that range of (+.060 up to 1/2 of lifters travel) than it should be good to go.

If you want to pressurize your oil system you can use a 1/2 drill an old cut down distrib. body and it's shaft or a made up rig like a 3/8 extension with bushing to fit block and adapter to fit the hex drive of the oil pump drive shaft.

 

[TucsonHooligan]

Looks like I got it. Adjustable measured out at 8.158 approx, so I added .0625 and got 8.2205, or 8.225 rounded to the nearest thou that I could buy easily, since CI stocks them. should work out fine from here on out (ha!), but does anybody have and last minute advice or ideas?

 

[bubba22349]

Looks like I got it. Adjustable measured out at 8.158 approx, so I added .0625 and got 8.2205, or 8.225 rounded to the nearest thou that I could buy easily, since CI stocks them.

Thats great

should work out fine from here on out (ha!), but does anybody have and last minute advice or ideas?

I think you are on the right path and ready to go now!

 

[xctasy]

I've built these engines before. Generally, there are about 160 odd steps, and if you miss one, its awfully easy to screw up an 8k engine. That doesn't mean don't have a go, it just means its best to discuss it when you do it.

I use 30+ years of info from other engine builders.The Australian Hot 302 and 351's book went into everything, and I used it for my mates first 351C 2V rebuild in 1988, as a green 18 year old. 375 hp flywheel with news paper add parts. For our sixes, I go back to that, and then I go back to my Excel spreadsheet from Jimbo65's early 2v 200 engine rebuild back in 2004.

Ist step after torquing down head in three stages to 55,75, and 105 ft/lbs is:-
1. Use a lifter bleed down tool
2. Add pushrods
3. Use a stop, no go gauge to check 0.0984" min, 0.1968" max clearance (98.4 to 196.8, average 147.6 thou
4. Use 0.060" thou longer or shorter pushrods to help get clearance.

I've found that the lifters vary, some edge orriface SBF lifters can be out 125 thou, so its important to go through step 1 to 4 until your satisfied.

I use the terms thou in 1/8" versions of thou measurements (0.060 becomes 62.5 thou), helps me avoid gross stuff ups. Hope all that I gave you helped, but its better not to elaborate too much as we all have to learn the basics, and best way is to let the info soak in slowly. And have a go...

 

[CNC-Dude]

Looks like I got it. Adjustable measured out at 8.158 approx, so I added .0625 and got 8.2205, or 8.225 rounded to the nearest thou that I could buy easily, since CI stocks them. should work out fine from here on out (ha!), but does anybody have and last minute advice or ideas?

You should probably verify that all your valve tips are the same height(or close to it). If you are leaving your valvetrain non-adjustable, this will/can cause you further issues by having some lifters preloaded too much or not enough since you only checked your pushrod length and lifter preload with one valve location.

 

[TucsonHooligan]

CNC Dude - I will do that, but what did they do from the factory with non-adjustables? Or are you just saying that since I had the head rebuilt, and the chance now is that they could be at different heights?

Xctasy - I'm a little short on knowledge and tools, but I know what you're saying about blowing up a motor, althouth a this point I'm *only* about 2k into it. I will see what I can do about getting a stop and work through all that.

As an aside, would oil through pushrods do me any good? Stock ones are solid I-I style, 5/16 shaft with 3/8 ball ends. I've found several the right length, but they are often H-H style, 5/16 shaft with a 5/16 ball ends with an oil-through hole. Does the smaller 5/16 ball end and the oil through make a big difference?

Thanks!

 

[CNC-Dude]

As with any non-adjustable valvetrain on any engine, there is a relatively tight margin that has to be held to ensure you have consistent valve tip heights on all the valves. From the factory, whether it was Chevy, Ford or Chrysler, the principal and techniques were the same. Most any hydraulic lifter that has ever been produced requires no more than between .025-.045 of preload to perform at its optimum(check Crane, Comp, Isky for their recommendations). So you can see that if you dont have real consistent valve tip heights from valve to valve, you are going to have the potential to either over compress the lifter, which can wipe a lobe of the cam if too excessive, or be too loose and have the rocker arm rattle. This makes a non-adjustable setup really need to be very accurately done by whoever does the valve job and assemble the head. With an adjustable valvetrain, this becomes less critical because you have the ability to compensate for inaccuracies in the valve heights and adjust or fine tune the lifter preload accordingly. Once you lay a straight edge across your valve tips you will know right away how much of an issue you are facing. If they are all within .010-.015 thousandths of the same, then that should be acceptable, but if they are all over the place, I would want the margins tightened up more to ensure more consistent preload.

 

[TucsonHooligan]

As with any non-adjustable valvetrain on any engine, there is a relatively tight margin that has to be held to ensure you have consistent valve tip heights on all the valves. From the factory, whether it was Chevy, Ford or Chrysler, the principal and techniques were the same. Most any hydraulic lifter that has ever been produced requires no more than between .025-.045 of preload to perform at its optimum(check Crane, Comp, Isky for their recommendations). So you can see that if you dont have real consistent valve tip heights from valve to valve, you are going to have the potential to either over compress the lifter, which can wipe a lobe of the cam if too excessive, or be too loose and have the rocker arm rattle. This makes a non-adjustable setup really need to be very accurately done by whoever does the valve job and assemble the head. With an adjustable valvetrain, this becomes less critical because you have the ability to compensate for inaccuracies in the valve heights and adjust or fine tune the lifter preload accordingly. Once you lay a straight edge across your valve tips you will know right away how much of an issue you are facing. If they are all within .010-.015 thousandths of the same, then that should be acceptable, but if they are all over the place, I would want the margins tightened up more to ensure more consistent preload.

Perfect. Thats what I'll do then, and if they are off I'll bite the bullet and buy adjustables. Just irks me that I had a set and tossed em on bad advice. What about the pushrod question? Are the oil-through ones with a smaller ball end an issue or what?

 

[xctasy]

I'd follow the stock US pushrod and rocker gear set up. Since it differs from the Aussie 250 system, it probably won't be a problem; Just note that around about 1968 when the Aussie and Argentine 221 came out, the ARDE heads got a reversal of the US pushrod and rocker ball set up. Dunno why, but it seemed to be done for a reason, and i'm not sure if its less or more reliable than the post 1964 US system. A lot of changes in the Aussie sixes were done based on component cost, not always for the better. The US stuff seams pretty good, so don't mess with it unless you have good engineering grounds

Don't deviate from the stock US system unless you are instructed to by Classic Inlines. I fully aggree with wsa111 regards roller rockers, they are a crucial factor in making a pushrod engine cope with long term use when a better cam is used. However, if you go that road, then you must use his exacting skills. Roller rockers are a significant step up from bolt on unadjustable rocker gear, but don't suffer fools gladly if there is a rocker geometry change due to head, block, valve or lifter differences. Each kit has specific requirements, some reasons forthe component changes are not all together clear. This is especially so with the YT roller rocker set up, since its designed for an Aussie 250 engine, not a US 200 or 250. The US stuff after 1968 have totally different rocker and pushrod set ups to the Aussie log and 2V engines, and some people have problems if you go to the Aussie Roller rocker type.

I think the roller rocker kit was fine, but that same checking your doing now needs to be done, and if the tip of the valve or the edge cups of the adjustment ball are restricted, then there needs to be extra machining done. The Yella Terra roller rocker kit mandates oil through rockers and edge oriface lifters, I think. Anyway, two members here had 2V's done back in the early noughtees, and both had pushrod to rocker ball shear off and or wear failures, Each went back to the stock Aussie 250 2v/250 1-bbl rocker set up, and it was okay. One was Ricksmol, can't remember the other person.

 

[TucsonHooligan]

So my pushrods showed up, perfect length, 5/16th shaft, but....The ball ends are 5/16th as well, NOT as they were described in the listing. I know the rockers are made to accept 3/8ths ends, so what will a 5/16th do? Fit poorly in the pocket and rattle? Or will the pressure between the rocker and the lifter allow them to seat and work fine?

 

[bubba22349]

Are they the stock rockers they should be made for the 5/16 push rods? Do you have way to post some pictures of the parts?

 

[TucsonHooligan]

Are they the stock rockers they should be made for the 5/16 push rods? Do you have way to post some pictures of the parts?

Hmmmmm. Let me see if I can get access to a camera. I have a set of calipers and checked them and they are indeed 5/16ths. I have a set of rods that came with the later style head (80's) and they are the same shank but 3/8ths heads. The rockers are off that head I believe. I say "I believe" because at one time there were about 4 sets laying around here from junk yard picks and old motors. So whats the deal? Why do the later ones have fatter ball ends? And how do I tell if the 5/16ths will work on this assembly?

 

[bubba22349]

Ahh yes the joys of mixing and matching parts I think you could tell by feel with the push rod ball in the rockers push rod socket dose it move side ways? What dose the rockers socket measure? Is it more than .375 a 5/16 ball is .3125 so if the rocker is 3/8 is only .0625 off and they need to be a little bigger than the ball to keep from galling when moving through arc of travel. I would think that it would be seated but if the rocker is bigger still i.e. like .425? and they make a push rod that is a .375 ball than that would be better. Again though without seeing it I can’t say 100% if it will work.