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help wanted, internal water leak SOLVED

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Rinke
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help wanted, internal water leak SOLVED

Post #1 by Rinke » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:38 pm

Hi Guys,

I'm somewhat at a loss.

I've had my 64 falcon 170 engine redone by a machine shop,
basically, new pistons, new timing, head and block mating surfaces were flattend. (This was nescessary because there was some warping and the previous owner somehow ended up with a big scratch in the block mating surface.) The machine shop put it all together.
When I installed the engine and ran it for the first time I noticed coolant loss. Apparently there was an internal leak, the coolant ended up in the oil pan. About 1 a 1,5 litres (1 a 1,5 quart i guess) in one week.
After contact with the machine shop and some tests I pulled the head again.
The machine shop pressure tested the head and couldnt find any leaks.
With a new gasket, the leakage is less, but still there.
I figure it cant be the block, since the only thing that has changed is the gasket and the leakage has decreased.
I installed the head with guide pins in 2 of the outer bolts as described in the falcon shop manual.
Sunday I ran the engine again end afterwards I retorked the headbolts.
Today there was water in the oil pan.
In both cases the leakage occured before and after the engine had run.

What can be the cause.
- not wel fitting gasket?
- mating surfaces not flat enough?
- bolts bottoming out due to too much material removed when repairing scratch?

Help!

Greetz Rinke

64 ford falcon station.
3 speed on the tree.
original 1:3.5 diff
Last edited by Rinke on Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
64 Falcon Station Deluxe
3 on the tree
170
3.50:1 rear end
Been collecting dust & adding rust for 30 years
Goal: to keep it all working from okt 2008 till all eternity

MustangSix
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Post #2 by MustangSix » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:47 pm

Is the head gasket installed properly? Go to http://www.kastang.us/kastang.html and scroll down to 08June03 to see pics of how CobraSix installed his backwards. Major water leak. :(
Jack Collins

Rinke
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Post #3 by Rinke » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:08 pm

Nope,

I triple checked that the gasket was right side up and that the holes matched.

Oh, there was no oil in the radiator, so I figured the leak must be in an low pressure oil return position.

Rinke
64 Falcon Station Deluxe

3 on the tree

170

3.50:1 rear end

Been collecting dust & adding rust for 30 years

Goal: to keep it all working from okt 2008 till all eternity

MustangSix
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Post #4 by MustangSix » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:27 pm

The left side of the block is known to seep coolant. It would be easy for the coolant to get into the return passage. Next time, use a thin smear of RTV silicone around the coolant passages on the engine block and head.

One more thing to check before reassembly. The other thing that comes to mind is that the head bolts may be too long now that the head and the block have both been surfaced. If the bolt bottoms out in the hole, you will get a full torque reading but the head will be improperly clamped. You could either shorten the bolt or add a hardened washer.
Jack Collins

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Post #5 by BUZZ » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:34 pm

Can you see any differances in your combustion chambers such as one being cleaner that the others or a little water and,or oil in a cylinder? I'd check the overall head bolt length just to be sure, it shouldn't be a problem but sometimes you just don't know. Did they magnflux the block? What kinda shape is your cooling sys. in? You do have the right pressure rad cap on it and thermostat is in good shape right?

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Post #6 by mugsy » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:21 pm

I had the same issue with my first engine rebuild. It was a V-8 engine; I torqued the head bolt down in one step, and not three as I should have. Have you asked the machine shop how they torqued the head bolts?

I also recommend that you purchase/rent a cooling system pressure tester. A company in America, Snap-on, sells one. I would think that something similar would be available in Europe. If not you can buy me a plane ticket and I'll come over with it for you to use! :P :wink: It is a hand pump with a fitting that attaches to the radiator where the rad cap goes. Test the system with the head and gasket on the engine.

tanx,
Mugsy

P.S. Your English is very good, how/where did you learn it?
line 'em up, baby

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addo
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Post #7 by addo » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:48 pm

Rinke, is there any signs of "steaming" inside the rocker cover - like, freshly rusted steel or emulsified water/oil?

Does the amount of water found in your sump, approximately equal the amount required to refill the cooling system again?

If the answers are first "No", then "Yes", you most likely have a split bore that is opening when the motor heats up, and the water is swept down by the piston - rather than pushed into the chamber and evaporated.

1,5 litres per week is too much for a small "weeping" leak, so I have to say it is a crack that isn't yet detected. :(

Regards, Adam.

Rinke
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Post #8 by Rinke » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:29 am

Thanks all for the replies!

I'll be trying the washer under the bolt trick as soon as I can get hold of a pair of suitable washers. If that won't work I'll try the rtv sylicone trick.

The cylinders look clean, no signs of water there.
The fist time I pulled the rocker cover there was emulsified oil there, also after the head had been pulled there was emulsified oil on the hydr valve lifters.

There is also leakage when the engine isn't running. As a matter of fact, when I drained the oil last sunday just after she had turned for a while there was no sign of water in the oil.

The amount in the sump roughly equals the amount lost, but when I pulled the head, just below the mating surface there was water in the coolant passages. I think that nullifies the possibility of a leak in the block.
Basically when the water level reached the mating surface there was no more water loss.

The thermostat is new, and the rad has been given a new cooling block and a new cap. I'll check the pressure rating on the cap, but it was done at a specialised radiator service company. SoI hope they didn't give me the wrong cap and thermostat.

@ mugsy;
I learned my English at highschool (from my 12th till 18th) where English is compulsory from grade 1. I also had to take an exam in English. In university most of my books were in English. Last but not least, after university I spent a year in Australia, which was very good for my speaking abilities. Oh and of course, the shop manual. You can't go without it.
But writing such a technical question did have me struggling with some technical descriptions.

Hmmmm, I'll have to see about that radiator pressure check thing you so generously want to bring. :wink:

Thanks,

Rinke
64 Falcon Station Deluxe

3 on the tree

170

3.50:1 rear end

Been collecting dust & adding rust for 30 years

Goal: to keep it all working from okt 2008 till all eternity

TIGGER

Post #9 by TIGGER » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:49 am

Did your car sit for a while? My best friend has a 64.5 Mustang with a 170. It was his great Grandma's car. It sat for many years before he started to restore it. He had the engine rebuild. Bored 30 over etc. He managed to get about 25K out of the engine before the crack finally broke thru. He was on a leasurely drive to the grocery store. He drove it about 3 miles before it overheated. We too thought the headgasket blew. He had it towed home. We tore the head off the head but did not see anything wierd. We cleaned all the yogurt out of the lifters, oil pan and oil pump. We put it all back together only to find out it was not the head gasket or the head. We ended up pulling the motor and the machinest found a crack in one of the lifter bores. The block was unrepairable. It took us about two years to find another good hydraulic lifter 170 block to put back in the car. He had the machine work done but the engine is still in pieces. I hope you do not have the same problem as my friend did but you may want to have your block checked next. Good luck

bronco6banger

Post #10 by bronco6banger » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:21 am

I have heard of this being used sucessfully to repair cracked heads. Its $5 dollars at walmart. Some call it liquid glass. It flows throw your 'water' until it hits the leak and then turns to a hard glass (pluging the leak) when it hits the air.

If all else fails??

http://www.barsproducts.com/1108.htm

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Post #11 by BIGREDRASA » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:40 pm

I've had a similar problem. It turned out to be a hairline crack in one of the intake valve pockets. It primarily leaked when the head was cool, but the system was under pressure with the engine running. Because the crack was so small, it took a greater pressure differential than would normally be obtained with pressurising the cooling system under static conditions. Thus, 12 PSI system pressure givews you a 12 PSI differential over atmospheric pressure. Whereas, the pressure in the valve pocket will be cooling system pressure plus the negative pressure of the intake. That gives you a pressure differential of around 30 PSI. I don't think that's safe for the radiator. If you don't have a crack detection product, at least carefully examine each intake valve pocket, specially around the valve seats.

Good luck.
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Post #12 by Rinke » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:38 am

@ Bigredasa If that's the case, wouldn't there be water in the cylinder bore?
Because that's clean, no water there.

@ Tigger: My car sat approximately for 30 years, befor I started the rebuild. My macinist insected the block before assembly, he thought it was ok.
But in the event of such a crack, I still have 3 other hydr valve blocks, sitting in my workshop.

I think it's the head gasket, because when I put steel rings under the boltheads to eliminate the bolt too long possibility, water started to drip out of the drain plug when I started tinkering with the left no 3 bolt.

Basically I have emulsified oil on the valve lifters.
I measured my water loss and it's approximately 100 to 200 cc a week.
That's a lot better then withe the previous headgasket.

I hope to have a new gasket in about a week. So I can try the RTV silicone trick

I'll keep you guys informed.

Greetz Rinke
64 Falcon Station Deluxe

3 on the tree

170

3.50:1 rear end

Been collecting dust & adding rust for 30 years

Goal: to keep it all working from okt 2008 till all eternity

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Post #13 by MustangSix » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:46 pm

Worst case, you may have a crack inside the block. The water jackets could be leaking directly into the pan.
Jack Collins

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Post #14 by Bort62 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:21 pm

If all else fails, try some Bar's stop leak :(

Do you have nominal operation otherwise? A headgasket that allowed water to leak into the oil would most likely cause other problems as well, IMO.

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Post #15 by BIGREDRASA » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:43 pm

The scenario I described would introduce coolant only during the period when the head is still relatively cool, but the coolant has reached full pressure. Any coolant that got sucked in at that stage would be vaporised readily, and the plugs and combustion chambers would look normal after a few more minuts of operation. I know it sounds far-fetched, but it will cost nothing to look into the valve pockets with a good light. Magnafluxing would be better, of course.
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internal water leak

Post #16 by wsa111 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:58 pm

Rinke, get the engine to operating temperature.
Remove valve cover, hook up a pressure tester for the cooling system, pump it up to 20# pressure +++.
Look down through the cylinder head around & below the pushrod area & see if you can see any leakage of coolant down at the headgasket area.
If no visable signs of leakage, looks like you might have to replace the block. Goodluck Bill
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
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Rinke
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Post #17 by Rinke » Thu May 15, 2008 8:04 am

Ok, so this is done sofar:
Pulled the head again, had it pressure tested, the head is solid!
The engine sat for a few weeks wo the head, with water in the passages, it leaks about half to a whole spoon a week, more to the half spoonish (a few large drops). I installed the head, with a thicker gasket AND RTV sillicone around all the water passages, not a thick bead, but a small one. And the D^%#RN thing leaks a whole lot more than before....
That was a typical WTW (Wrench through Windshield) moment. Luckilliy I got my CA radio working to soothe the pain... (oh and the right door managed to hang, so it won't close anymore.
I guess a typical dutch sayin applies here: de laatste loodjes wegen het zwaarst (the final steps are the most difficult).
I know my lower block seeps a bit water, I'm temprorarilly going to solve that with some Bars leak, while I inspect my other blocks and get a title for the car.
But what coud be the cause of the increased leekage, after I installed the head.
- RTV bead not sealing?
- head not torqued enough (had contact with Mike AZ coupe about that, and I used the correct torque)
- extra water pressure due to increased water coulom in head causes crack to expand and let more water through??

I'm somewhat at a loss here.

Greetz Rinke
64 Falcon Station Deluxe

3 on the tree

170

3.50:1 rear end

Been collecting dust & adding rust for 30 years

Goal: to keep it all working from okt 2008 till all eternity

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Post #18 by 66 Fastback » Thu May 15, 2008 10:24 am

Just a thought, maybe this is a case where the block and the head need to be resurfaced. It could be warped a enough to cause leakage or maybe there is some corrosion pitting that needs to be cleaned up on the mating surfaces.
But if you have to go to the expense and trouble of machining this block, you may be better off on using one of the other blocks since it could still be a water jacket leak.
Doug

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Post #19 by pedal2themetal45 » Thu May 15, 2008 11:12 am

For get the RTV .. use the gasket thicker one.. and put washers under ALL the bolts grade 8's well work fine..
tim
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Post #20 by BUZZ » Thu May 15, 2008 12:13 pm

I suppose this is a dumb question to ask at this point because I'm sure you've already done it, but have you put a straight edge on both the block and the head? Besides the RVT I'd go ahead and put washers under the head bolts. As far as the block leaking along time ago, when I was just learning to turn a wrench an old mec. showed me how to find a crack in a block. What he did was rotate the piston all the way to the bottom of the stroke and then slowly heat the bore with a propane torch.If there's a crack it will show up as a wet spot that will dry up as soon as the torch hits it and get damp again as the torch moves away. Maybe you can try that.

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Leaky falcon

Post #21 by flatford6 » Fri May 16, 2008 1:45 am

I had one of these heads crack cross ways in the center between the two exhaust valves right under the rocker shaft where the casting bulges up. Pull the valve cover and take a look while cold and also while running the engine. If the crack is there and is not too long, a plate with a gasket could be bolted down over it for a seal, without removing the head.

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Post #22 by Rinke » Fri May 16, 2008 9:23 am

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the tips.
But the head and block mating surfaces have been surfaced.
Basically the engine has been to a machine shop, where all the internals have been replaced.
They tested the head, its not leaking.
We concluded there is a crack in the lower block, not in the head.
They can't find the crack, so can't I.

But that is a small weeping leak I was planning on fixing with Bars and not the amount that I've got now after I installed the head, thicker gasket and RTV. :(

Greetz Rinke
64 Falcon Station Deluxe

3 on the tree

170

3.50:1 rear end

Been collecting dust & adding rust for 30 years

Goal: to keep it all working from okt 2008 till all eternity

Rinke
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internal water leak: solved

Post #23 by Rinke » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:55 am

Hi guys,

Just to let you all know what happened with my water leak:

I had a crack in the no 5 (i think) valve lifter boring.
The differences in water leakage were probalbly caused by the location of the valve lifter, in the up position water could flow better through because of the shoulder in the valve lifter, in the downward position it was blocking the water flow somewhat.

It cost me 3 head gaskets before we finally got it, I was about to try the bars leak when I noticed bent pusrods. That sent all alarm bells ringing and I pulled the head, to find some of the valves binded up due to rust.
I then pulled the engine threw it in the back of the car and drove to the machine shop. They took the engine apart and found the crack.

I had to replace the lower block, fortunately I had 3 lying around.
So I ended up paying for a second honed block, but it sure as h*ll ain't leaking.

The reason they didn't notice the crack first time around because I cleaned the block before I took it to the machine shop.

So, if I ever have to send an engine to a machine shop I will not clean it to save some $$ on the cleaning fee. :idea:

Greetz Rinke
64 Falcon Station Deluxe

3 on the tree

170

3.50:1 rear end

Been collecting dust & adding rust for 30 years

Goal: to keep it all working from okt 2008 till all eternity

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Post #24 by Geezer 300 » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:16 am

Glad you finally found the problem!
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Post #25 by ludwig » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:31 am

That is so appropriate. An archeologist likes old cars.

Good deal that you found the leak. So when you say 'lower block' you mean the basic block, as opposed to the head, fx Right? Whew. That's a way to fix a leak.

So when you go to change out the next 'lower block', you might as well get a 200 to replace the 170. The exterior is all the same size and with that 3.50, you could really jump off at the light.

BTW, what's your area of specialty? Frisian terps?
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Post #26 by Rinke » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:54 am

Hey Ludwig,

Yeah I meant the casting, all the internals were used in the new block, with the exception of the cranckshaft and the camshaft. The ones from the donor block were far better then my originals. So something good came of it after all.

A 200 is not something that is lying arond at the local scrappers in abundance.
Remember, this is europe home of the 4 cylinder car.
Best chance i've got for a 200 is from a mustang, and then, what condition is it in? I could have bought a "recond" 200 but after some questioning, it turned out to have a recond head, but the lower block was still original, so I decided against it. Also I have the relatively weak 2.77 tranny and on some forums I was advised against installing anything bigger than the 170, or else risk losing the tranny.

Yup older car, older woman :P :D , they don't build them like they used to :wink:

I graduated as an physical geographer, with a specialisation in pollen analysis, landscape- and climatic reconstruction.
In dutch arceology most of the time you're reconstructing buried landscapes to try and interpret if, how and when that landscape was suitable for habitation. Basically what I had learnt to do. It is great fun.

Frysian terps are a good example of the often difficult conditions the dutch people had to cope with. You're living on a piece of land that gives a good yield in terms of meat and other resources, but it floods twice a day and in winter you get exeptionally high floods, so you buld yourself a nice mound with a house on top where you keep your cattle safe and have a well that wont go bad due to high salinity. AND you stand a goot chance of kicking some roman butt, or whatever ruler who wants to submit your community. Sorted!

But in the better part of seabound netherlands there are terps, either at the surface or overgrown by peat.

Greetz Rinke
64 Falcon Station Deluxe

3 on the tree

170

3.50:1 rear end

Been collecting dust & adding rust for 30 years

Goal: to keep it all working from okt 2008 till all eternity

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