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Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

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Frankenstang
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Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #1 by Frankenstang » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:18 am

Here is a quick run down of my conversion to a Carter YF 1bbl and throttle cable....this one for David S. Thanks for all your Fordsix help!

My Pony Vaporizer cracked right on the boss for the fuel inlet threads that receive the factory fuel filter (will try to post pic here later). Like the sign outside the mortuary (Halloween obligatory), it 'remains to be seen' if this crack in the upper air horn is repairable. Since the annular venturi of the Pony 1v is integral to that part of the carb, a substitution yields only a standard 1100.

At any rate, thanks to the posts here on cable swap, I switched over to a Chinese 'knock-off' of the Carter YF. It's a new casting being imported by a few sources and available on fleabay for about $150.

Cons: Pretty much requires a switch to a throttle cable for smooth and full accelerator actuation. Only available in ~1.75" bore. Don't know for certain the CFM. Maintenance heave from what I have read, and lastly, a bit tall.

Pros: She runs decent right out of the box. Cold Idle/choked setting is too high, and warm idle curb setting is as well. Easily adjusted. Other than that I'm very surprised it is not overly rich or lean from initial driving and diagnosis. Now I just need a good cheap ('free'?) read on tuning the YF, and a super low profile filter setup to give it the real acid test. Not sure the stocker Mav/Granada/etc. type drop filter will cut it, and I still need to get some clay or some such and measure just how much room I have...but here's a couple pics so far...

ImageImage

ImageImage

'Required/Recommended' Mod - Cable Throttle: The cable pedal I just got lucky. A yard here in DFW had a Granada that had been there for less than a week and was completely picked clean, except for the pedal and throttle cable. Unfortunately for me it was a Bent8 so the cable came up too short (about 17" total). Purchased a cable for a 1980 Fairmont (again thanks to this forum...approx. 26" long), and I was in business after a quick white trash bracket fab. Also made use of a 3/4" piece of MDF to space the pedal mounting bracket far enough away from the firewall to give full actuation. I'm swapping that out for block of aluminum this weekend or next.

This was a reasonable mod with a $5 pedal assembly and $30 new cable plus the cost of the carb, but will stop short of saying a slam dunk win-win until I get it dialed in, the filter worked out and the first tank or two mpg readings.
Cheers and Good Luck!
-Robert
Image
66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
All in one car! Johnny Cash would be proud...I got it One Piece at a Time

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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #2 by xctasy » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:48 am

Frankenstang wrote:Image




I'd say its a very good flowing carb. Its bigger than the old Autolite 1101 240 big six carb with its 1.29" venturi, and that could make 125 hp easily.


The earlier Carter RBS was rated at 215 cfm, not sure about the YFA, but its a good 120 hp net carb in those 4.9 trucks.


The YFA carb has a 1.4375" venturi verses the tiny 1.125" item the Tempo HSC 2300/ Fox 200/3.3 and Slant six 225/3.7 liter engines ran with till they got dropped in the early 80's. 85 to 91 hp max.

The little 1946 Holley 1-bbl in the 200 and 225 slant and its one year only US 1949 in the Ford Tempo 2.3 versions (including the 1985-1988 Canadain 6153 1-bbl version) was rated at about 202 cfm with that 1.125" venturi in the 3.7 liter Slant Six.


It uses the same late 70's Fox and F150 cable linkage technolgy that Colton Anderson ripped into when he made his triple Carter YFA 4.9 Big Six truck, I copied it and his rod operated intermediate shaft, and was able to use the stock C3 auto kickdown rod. The later cable is a great set up.

Image

The YFA carbs are a good size too, like running a big single 45 mm SU carb.

Even nicer when there are three...

Nice work.
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #3 by MPGmustang » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:10 am

I loved the Carter YF on my mustang, it went from 94hp with the pony to 114 running the carter YF... the pony is really restrictive, I've calculated that it's roughly 167cfm pony and 220cfm Carter YF.

I even have a Dyno Post high lighting the results of the different runs, even with High ratio rockers the pony just doesn't have anything past 167cfm.

anyways, for my throttle linkage, I bent my arm and made a new 'connector' for the carter, sadly I bent the arm too much and when I MASHED the pedal to the floor I popped the linkage off the carb... never fixed it cause I eventually went 2bbl with a cable.

Just a heads up, that 1.75 bore I got a max of 127hp with a 2bbl carb and 2-1 adaptor, same 2bbl direct mounted and it pushed 135hp, and tunning on a separate dyno pushed it to 145hp.

anyways, keep up the good work!
65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers
66 Bronco-SOLD-i6 170 - rust bucket never ran...
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #4 by CZLN6 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:26 am

Howdy Back Robert:

Looks great! I'll be waiting for more followup. I can't tell from the pix, is that a hot air choke system? Is the carb on an adapter between the carb and the manifold?

I'm told that the tuning issues are similar to tuning the Carter AFB 4v. When you find that out please share.

Thanks for posting your progress.

Adios, David
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http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #5 by Frankenstang » Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:08 am

Thanks for the replies Dean, Richard and David!

It's interesting Dean recognized this as a YFA, as that seemed to be David's take as well.

Here's a link to The Old Car Manual Project site with some shop manual pages on the YF.
http://oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/ ... /index.htm

Another couple links from Mike's Carburetors with some helpful youtube vids on rebuilding and bench setup of the YFA.

http://www.carburetor-blog.com/carter-y ... arburetor/
http://www.carburetor-blog.com/adjustin ... ering-rod/

It does appear to be the one commonly referred to as YFA rather than the older YF, and either a pre-'feedback' or 'non feedback' type.

David, yes that is the factory 'heated' spacer still on this C7 head (approx. 1" thick), and it's vexing my efforts to fit an air cleaner. Measurements from the top of the carb flange show I have right at 1.75" (or slightly over) to the hood.

It does have a 'hot air' choke. A choke stove 'Help' kit got the choke working as it should, but I think I'm going to have to delete the heated spacer base to allow enough clearance for an air cleaner or breather.

I've searched for the Maverick Granada type drop base air breather, but they are hard to find. So I found a small mutli-carb aftermarket 4" filter that has a 2 5/8" hole which fits snugly on the top flange.

My main concern now is, will orienting the carb counter clockwise 90* affect its operation much, as well as finding out if the throttle cable will still reach or will I have to revert back to manual linkage or some hyrid of the two :?:

I have seen a lower profile factory spacer that maintains the bowl forward orientation, but they are also hard to find, so I'm gonna try a direct mount for now so I can get a filter on top of it, until I find or fab a different spacer plate.

This will clock the choke tube and throttle linkage around to the passenger side of the engine and the bowl w/fuel inlet to the drivers side, as well as it will delete the pcv vacuum connection from the spacer so I'll move that over to the side of the log intake.
-Robert
Image
66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #6 by CZLN6 » Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:19 pm

Howdy Robert:

Reorienting the carb 90 degrees is going to require a bunch of other adaptations to gain 1" of hood clearance. Given an additional inch of clearance, what options will that give you? or will that still be too tight? Would you do me another favor and measure the new YFA's height?

Did you want to retain the stock water heated adapter to aid carb heat?

What air cleaner did you have on the broken Pony carb?

Sorry, not any help today, but the solution is out there.

Adios, David
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http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #7 by Frankenstang » Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:05 pm

Hi David,

I'll hit these questions in kinda reverse order...

This YFA is 5 1/8" from base to top flange on the carb (flange for seating breather).

The Pony Vaporizer 1100 used the stock air breather. It's a 'sprint' chrome air filter about 2 1/2" tall, no snorkel and a smaller opening for the 1100.

I really don't mind losing the heated spacer except for the 'bunch of adaptions' it introduces...okay, not too many but a few...here's some pics to illustrate

Image

ImageImage

So this actually turns the carb a little over 90*, and involves
Cons (more mods):
1) re-routing pvc to the plug on the side of the log
2) changing out the throttle cable from the '80 Ford stock one pictured to a Lokar or similar 36" cable...hopefully you can see from the pic that the stock cable cannot make another 90* to hook up with the throttle connection on the carb (the last 8 or so inches of the stock cable is a solid shaft).
3) kills my plan to bevel the opening in the 1" spacer out to 1.75" and allow a conical flow into the 1.5" throttle bore opening of this C7 head
4) requires a slight re-orientation of the fuel line, which is all flexible hose except for the 1/8" NPT barb fitting that deletes a typical 'thread in' factory filter (I use an inline filter).

There is a chance I could revert back to the factory pedal linkage, but the arm comes up a bit short the work the proper back arcing swing required for full throttle operation...I could lengthen the arm, but don't think bending would avoid possible binding issues...and not sure lengthening would completely resolve binding either...would be more trial and error.

Pros:
It increases clearance to 2 3/4" which will accommodate more air breather options, including a drop base or small diameter filter like those on multi-carb setups.

The other alternative is to leave the spacer, and fab or find an aftermarket breather that's no taller than 1.5" total...after visiting some parts places this morning...finding an after market option is not so easy to do. More likely this would involve using the offset base for the YF like Mike @ CI sells, or fabbing something similar. (note the high rise of the choke housing requires the offset or drop base design).

Decisions, decisions....I'm open to any and all suggestions, thanks!
-Robert
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66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #8 by xctasy » Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:50 pm

Copy Ford engineering practice in two ways...

Firstly, the pich point is the air cleaner. Do the base modifications that Ford did on the X shell 250... the Maverick/Granada/Monarch with the L code (and, in 1980, the C code) 250 sixes.

Turning the carb won't help as muich as copying the 1974 to 1980 250 air cleaner base will..

They had a parbolic base with a high degree of curvature, and a huge drop down in the base.

The 2-bbl Big block guys copy this kind of base on there custom 2-bbl carbs.

Image

The 3.3 Fox body was similar.

Image

Then secondly, add a 0.5" alloy spacer so the carb can stay in the stock postion. I made one like this, which allowed me to mate the early 1.3" log head to my 1981 Mustang block. with the 1981 Holley 1946 carb. You are copying the late 1981 to 1983 adaptor to suit the early Ford small six stud pattern.

Image

It has to be like an AK MIller 1101 Autolite conversion to the old 67 Mustang as decribed in Hopping up the Mustang Six.

Grab some 0.5" alloy.

Image


Cut it down like this (use a little more finesse than I did though...).

Image

Image
Image
Image
And you dough is bread

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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #9 by xctasy » Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:27 am

One other member posted this. Its for an early Autolite 1100/Holley 1940 to later big log head with the bigger 2 5/8" stud pattern.

The idea for you is the get the stock early bolt spacing and the later Carter YFA or later Holley 1946 bolt pattern to gell together with as little height as you can...keep the carb orientation, so driling up a simple and thin lower adaptor will allow you to eliminate this intermediate item below.



Image
Image


The universal F100/F150 large bolt pattern change was facilitated by Ford with a nasty adaptor, they stayed with the concept to the bitter end, like on this 1981 Capri 3.3.

That resulted in extra height.

Image


Good fortune!


The second part is to devise the factory L, M and C code set up for cheap. These are three 250 engines.

Image
Image
Image

Addos posts showed you how to reduce air cleaner height with the M code 170 HP 250.

Image

Image


I'd grab a stock Fox air cleaner, cut in the inner part of the air cleaner to air filter margin, add a 25 mm 1 " steel ring to make the 250 M code version....that should give you enough room.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #10 by Frankenstang » Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:00 am

That resulted in extra height.

Image


Good fortune!


Many thanks for your reply and the great pics Dean. After studying on this yesterday evening, I was leaning towards a spacer fab and either a modified or stock 'drop base' filter assembly like the one you have pictured.

You have convinced me this is the best route. If I can keep the spacer within 3/8" to 1/2" height (sorry for the western centric measurements...like most here in the states I don't do metric well :rolflmao: ), and procure or modify a stock 'drop base' or parabolic shape with no more than 1.5" above the carb I should be in business.

That setup is cleaner, utilizes more of what I have on hand and minimizes the compounding mods 8)

Thanks again!
-Robert
Image
66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #11 by CZLN6 » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:06 am

Howdy All:

Good plan Robert. X is just a bundle of good ideas with photo resources to match. Good on ya, Dean.

Keep us updated on your progress with both the thin adapter and the low profile air cleaner.

Adios, David
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http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #12 by Frankenstang » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:33 am

CZLN6 wrote:Good plan Robert. X is just a bundle of good ideas with photo resources to match. Good on ya, Dean.


No doubt David! xctasy's posts (like yours) are one of the reasons I joined this forum, and one of many as to why I keep coming back! :thumbup:

Life is funny...

Spent better part of today, fabbing a 3/8" spacer from aluminum to gain 5/8" of what I considered valuable real estate, lol.

Used countersink bolts and standard studs for the mouting. A gratuitous shot or two of the weathered power plant...showing it's age, but she just won't die and give way to the long block sitting on a stand :wink:

ImageImage
ImageImage

At the same time, I had a line on a mid 70's air breather on the 'bay, and the owner gets back to me that the carb opening is approximately 2 5/8" and the distance from the carb opening to the highest point of the lid is 1.25"...we have a winner! So as David had advised me previously...'be patient', not that it's my strong suit... :D

Image
ImageImage

The spacer may be for naught, but it will give me a chance to run a carb with a heater hose delete that I believe only contributes to fuel boil here in Texas during the summer months...rationalization :?: :rolflmao:

Conclusions, I think my measures are relatively accurate:

1.75" clearance from carb flange to touching the hood with a factory spacer

2 3/8" clearance to touch with the home spun modified 3/8" spacer

So the ca. mid 70's breather may have done the job all on it's own...remains to be seen. I'll post the fitment on that, when it arrives, as well as some updates on tuning and mpg's. If I do put back the factory spacer, it will still be with a heater hose delete (using a damaged spare), and a much better conical transition from ~1.75" to ~1.5" than what I ended up with in my quick fab today.

As always, many thanks to all the folks here on FSP, and Good luck!
-Robert
Image
66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #13 by CZLN6 » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:32 pm

Howdy Back All:

Good Job! The air cleaner looks like it has a relief bulge to clear the choke heater coil housing too. I think you're on your way. Such a better solution than canting the carb and jury rigging the linkage. Once you get it all cleaned up, there is still fine tuning to be done. I'm still curious about the richness of the internal idle circuitry. The rest can be fine tuned with a jet change and adjusting the needle valve.

By the way, what engine do you have on the stand? Long block? What head?

Thanks for the update and photos. Keep it coming.

Adios, David
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #14 by Frankenstang » Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:08 pm

Hi David,

I agree, and am very happy to have located what I believe is a YFA style cleaner based on initial info.
I'm also very pleased with the feel of the stock style cable pedal setup...smoother action than manual linkage. The 'canting' of the carb would have forced me to use a longer, aftermarket universal cable and introduced more curves in the cable which could have caused problems down the line.

The long block was a bit of a 'barn' find. It's a C6 block and C7 head, which is basically the same as what I have in the car, but it is bored .40 vs .30 over on the current one.

It appears to be an engine that was built almost 20 years ago, was painted and prepped for install...but never run. The cross hatching on the cylinder walls is still very distinct, and when I picked it up I made sure the crank turned freely. It was being stored down in Houston, so the more humid climate and age in storage is the likely cause of some flash rust on the unfinished parts. It was a bit of a gamble, but at $100 plus road trip to fetch it...I hoping it ends up being a good one. I mounted it on a stand, shot some oil in the cylinders and wrapped in a bag with some desiccates. Plan is to prep it for install this winter, and it will get the set of CI stainless headers I picked up second hand, but I remain a committed one barrel-er :wink:

ImageImage
ImageImage
-Robert
Image
66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #15 by CZLN6 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:51 am

Howdy Back:

Good find on the long block. Just an FYI, it sounds like you've had the head off already. Did you check the chamber ccs? What was the condition of the 20 year old valve stem seals? What head gasket was used?

If you have to take the head apart to freshen seals and/or mill to maintain stock CR, consider having the carb hole drilled out to 1.75", along with back-cutting the intake valves.

While it's likely the head was milled during the rebuild it may not have been enough to compensate for a thicker than stock head gasket. The only reliable way to determine is to measure a chambers volume. In stock form a C7 head would have chamber volumes of 52 ccs + or - 1. this is probably another topic, so I'd better stick to the YF thread for now. Keep us posted on the conversion.

Adios, David
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http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #16 by xctasy » Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:37 pm

CZLN6 wrote:Howdy Back:

Good find on the long block. Just an FYI, it sounds like you've had the head off already. Did you check the chamber ccs? What was the condition of the 20 year old valve stem seals? What head gasket was used?

If you have to take the head apart to freshen seals and/or mill to maintain stock CR, consider having the carb hole drilled out to 1.75", along with back-cutting the intake valves.

While it's likely the head was milled during the rebuild it may not have been enough to compensate for a thicker than stock head gasket. The only reliable way to determine is to measure a chambers volume. In stock form a C7 head would have chamber volumes of 52 ccs + or - 1. this is probably another topic, so I'd better stick to the YF thread for now. Keep us posted on the conversion.

Adios, David


Amen to all that. With the exception of the 1961-1972 170 cylinder heads, the C7 was officially (although not actually) the last of the common small chamber heads, and as such, they just require a few dollars on a complementary head skim to take off what a modern composite gasket looses over the old 22 tin FoMoCo, and a simple valve backcut, and every thou of increase in head port to 1-3/4" makes power, espacially if your staying 1-barrel. Incidently, the best info I have is that the Carter YFA venturi is only 22.5 thou bigger in the throat than the Autolite 1101 for the 240, at 1-5/16 venturi, 1-11/16 throttle and 220cfm at 3" Hg.


But mostly, :bang: both David and Dean were just so disappointed that the C7 DE 6090 head you have on your 200 wasn't a C2 suffix item :cry:
NOOOOOOOO ITS NOT A C7 DE 6090 C2 AGGGRRHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Image


You know, the one with rare as hens teeth split exhaust...

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I get so emotional baby...
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #17 by Frankenstang » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:07 am

xctasy wrote:But mostly, both David and Dean were just so disappointed that the C7 DE 6090 head you have on your 200 wasn't a C2 suffix item
NOOOOOOOO ITS NOT A C7 DE 6090 C2 AGGGRRHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I had no idea such an animal even existed, so my disappointment will be short lived :wink:

David, I actually have not had the head off, but will start a new thread when I begin prepping the long block for install. I do plan to use new valve stem seals and a new Felpro head gasket (I've had good luck with those).

I will also plan on cc'ing the chambers, and look at shaving the head to compensate for the thicker Felpro gasket, as well as finding someone to back cut the valves and/or possibly 3 angle. Opening the throttle bore in the manifold to 1.75" would also be in order.

I wish I had mic'd the venturi while I had the carb off, but will try to update with those measures at some point. I'm intrigued that some of these were rated as high as 220cfm.

Looking at the Mike's Carburetor videos on youtube, it seems the metering rods are mainly in play on the accel pump circuit, and idle and main jet circuits are otherwise SOP :?:

I also plan to make use of the thermostatic warm air pre-heater on the snorkel and the fresh air pcv circulation using an oil filler cap with a hose nipple.

The air cleaner will arrive in the next few days, but for the time being I'm using a small 4" diameter, 2" high multi-carb style, open element cleaner (possibly restrictive due to its small size?). I will follow up with some updates on mpg's and plug reads after logging some mileage with the final setup.
Thanks again for all the tips, pics, suggestions and advice I've received here at FSP :thumbup:
-Robert
Image
66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #18 by Frankenstang » Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:09 pm

I'm a happy camper! The air cleaner just arrived, and the fit is pretty much perfect...hood clearance, choke clearance, etc. :thumbup:

With the lid on the total height is below the tops of the shocks, and the diameter and location does not interfere with the hood ribs (hard to see in second pic, but the ribs on the '66 hood land just outside of the filter diameter).
ImageImage

The elbow barb brass fitting will be the new location for the pcv vacuum pick-up, and I'll flow fresh air to the valve cover via a push on cap with hose nipple. Also circled are the exhaust bolts/studs that will mount a fabbed heat collector and connection for pre-heater plenum to the snorkel (I'll have to come up with a hanging clamp-on type when I switch to a header).
The snorkel is short (about 6") and has the thermostatic snorkel butterfly with operating linkage, for warm air feed.
ImageImage

Next, is figuring out how the vacuum lines for the pre-heater (warm air delivery) plenum should connect...from what I can tell...
1) The vacuum from the carb goes thru this valve in the base of the breather (yellow circle), and it feeds a splitter mounted on the outer diameter of the cleaner which relays vacuum to the snorkel to open and close the flapper allowing warm air flow from an exhaust manifold riser

This is somewhat 'wild speculation' (or just an intuitive take), if anyone knows this to be the correct setup, or can correct my speculation :?: :?: ...it would be greatly appreciated!
ImageImage


I'm also not sure what role this piece plays :?: It has two wires running to it, that are cut, in above pic.
Image
-Robert
Image
66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #19 by xctasy » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:29 pm

Easy. Its an early electric switch, some basic thermatic valve. Not sure what for. None of my searching showed me what it was called, but certainly by 1985, none of the air cleaners had it.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/70660 ... eaner.html

You'll remember our IMCO and Thermactor talk, and the 12 devices used, well, by 1981, carb Ford trucks went to a very disciplined 31 item system, yet the 80's stuff didn't have that electric sensor in that position.


Here's some simple acronyms and vacuum block off stratergies for the YFA carb

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/77996 ... onyms.html
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/96724 ... tions.html
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/11469 ... s-etc.html

FYI. Most in line sixes didn't get manadatory air pumps till after 1978, and even then, some didn't require it untill 1982.

For some CA or high altitude areas, with the dirtier manual transmission vehicles, there needed to be an air pump to scrub up the hydrocrabons on over run or for cold starting (you can't fast idle a manual trans engine the same asn an automatic), so an automatic on/off control (via Thermactor diverter valve) was on the outside. That's what the round plastic outer thing is. When required, all 250's ran the air pump on the same side as the 300's when equiped.

Most later PCV valves were outside the air cleaner from either the front or rear hole in the rocker cover...after 1978, hood room restrictions forced Ford to move the oil filler right back to the rear of the rocker cover.
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #20 by Frankenstang » Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:03 pm

xctasy wrote:You'll remember our IMCO and Thermactor talk, and the 12 devices used, well, by 1981, carb Ford trucks went to a very disciplined 31 item system


Lol, 'disciplined 31 item'...yes, I remember the IMCO vs Thermactor discussion, and the early versions, while being only a bit complex, can't hold a candle to the stupefying schematics of the 80's :shock:

Thanks for the links xctasy, they help make some sense of those later systems.

I couldn't find a good Ford diagram, but here is what I believe is a bowtie version of the pre-heater system, lifted from AutoZone's site...
ImageImage

My hope is to make use of this subset of the thermactor system to help engine warm up and minimize choke and improve efficiency. I still need to test the bellows in the snorkel and then see if I can use the vac source at the base of the carb to feed the thermostatic valve in the base of the air cleaner (if I'm following the info from ford-trucks correctly). I plan to leave the large choke, fresh air circ vacuum line up top plugged.

Image

xctasy wrote:(via Thermactor diverter valve) was on the outside. That's what the round plastic outer thing is.


However, if 'the round plastic thing' on the side of the breather is another functioning valve...that could complicate things :hmmm:
Image

Glad to see the site back up :thumbup:
-Robert
Image
66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #21 by xctasy » Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:14 pm

A good YFA is a lot neater...its a natural fitment.

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FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #22 by Frankenstang » Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:25 am

Yes, far more organic looking in it's 'natural' state...beats the pants off this look...

Image

:rolflmao: However, like any good legend...those links above make even this map start to make sense :wink:

Those FTE links above are a great help for getting a better grasp on my situation or planned concoction (especially this one)...thanks again for that :thumbup:

xctasy wrote:Easy. Its an early electric switch, some basic thermatic valve. Not sure what for. None of my searching showed me what it was called, but certainly by 1985, none of the air cleaners had it.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/70660 ... eaner.html
-Robert
Image
66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #23 by xctasy » Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:16 pm

What is your carb really

Image

Is it one of these pre YFA types with the later large stud spacing

the buypartsonline "Parts OnLine" YF US$153.39 carb is listed as

1.57" venturi
1 -11/16 throttle bore ?

It won't really be a 1.57" venturi, is it?. Thats dang huge, considering the 240 Autolite 1101 was 1.29, and the Ford 300 truck YFA was about 1.3" venturi.

Does it have a cast iron throttle body?

What is the stock jet and metering rod?

I'm busy looking at recalibrating one of the smaller 2.0/2.3 Lima OHC YFA feedbacks for my triple carb instillation, and I've got diiferent data for the YF.

Doug D's mob at The Slant Six forum has got all the 80 three step metering rods they commonly used, from the lean to rich, everything from the first year YF's from the early 50's in Willy's Jeeps to the YF common replacements. Carter BBD 2-BBL items fit too.

You can get a default Q2505-045 YF metering rod from the Quadrajet Parts
http://quadrajetparts.com/carter-carbur ... -1193.html

(The Q2505-045 is a 75-1862 replacement that goes with a 101 jet), or specs on the 75-1500 that goes with a 93.5 thou jet for a Willys 134 cuber. The info exists for them, though you have to network for an alternative source, or have a jewler or machinist make one for you. Jets exist from 74 to 119, or from 71 in BBD's

For that matter, there is enough calibration info on using, say two BBD 2-BBL 75-2226 metering rods with 89 jets from a 225 2-bbl slant in a two YF instillation.

http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43724
http://www.troberg-larsen.priv.no/mopar ... g_rods.jpg
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #24 by Frankenstang » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:17 pm

xctasy wrote:What is your carb really

Image

Is it one of these pre YFA types with the later large stud spacing

the buypartsonline "Parts OnLine" YF US$153.39 carb is listed as

1.57" venturi
1 -11/16 throttle bore ?

It won't really be a 1.57" venturi, is it?. Thats dang huge, considering the 240 Autolite 1101 was 1.29, and the Ford 300 truck YFA was about 1.3" venturi.

Does it have a cast iron throttle body?

What is the stock jet and metering rod?


Unfortunately, I don't have 'good' answers to those questions yet x.

May be a couple, the throttle bore is the larger 1-11/16". I do not think the venturi is that large (1.57" only ~2/16" smaller than the throttle bore), but I failed to mic it before installation. I also have not opened it up to check the specs on the metering rod or jet. I have a feeling it is jetted a bit rich without having done an initial plug read as yet. However, I don't believe it to be terribly rich, as the first tank of 'mixed' driving returned mpg of 19.94. My best mpg with the Pony Vaporizer was 21.23 on a highway only tank. [note: since adding the 5spd and disc brakes, I find it real difficult to keep my foot out of it around town :twisted: ].

I'm relatively sure the lower throttle body is cast aluminum (may be able to check that with a magnet), and the mounting holes came slotted (presumably for multiple installations).

The carb has been performing very well. The one additional mod I'm considering (after the air breather pre-heater), is installing a dashpot. The integral throttle return spring mounted on the throttle shaft is very strong, and at warm operating temperature can give a slight studder on throttle release between shifts (throttle slamming shut).

I'll try to fill in some of the blanks as I go forward. Still happy with how the mod has turned out so far, and hopeful for greater efficiency as I learn the ins and outs of this Chinese Carter knock-off.
-Robert
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66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #25 by xctasy » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:55 pm

No problem. I appreciate the height stats at the start of your post.

The Rochester 2 jet is like 4-4/5" tall, while the Holley 2300 2-bbls are 5-5/16" before it gets a 1-9/16" choke cut off to reach 3-3/4" tall.


Building a dosier on Carter YF's is hard because of the variances. First version, (previeiwed in 1949, but based on a rework of the water proof 1946 Jeep Carter YS) were manual choke like this early item.

ImageImage

In 1967, it was the # YF-4367S/ YF-4368S Camaro 230 140 hp and 250 155 hp L6 carb, This was a Ford and AMC based major change revised version from 1966- on, AMC 1966-1976, Jeep 1971- on, Mercury 1968-on

By 1973, it was like this. About as similar to the early versions as a Harley Davison is to a bicycle...

ImageImage

Along the way in the lates 60's there were the 170 105 hp , and the 200 115 hp Ford Mustang IMCO, then was a brief 250 155 hp Ford I6 carb

The first versions before the YFA 1978 name change were

150
187
193 and 200-cfm.


The 1978 YFA then dropped to 195 cfm, which I think was only 1-11/16" throttle.

The traditional sizes were 1-1/2" for the small 134 Jeep, probably 150 cfm,
1-5/8" for the 226 i6,

then 1-11/16" for the 240 and 300 YF and YFA's, probably 187, 193, 200 and then 195 cfm.

Venturis were as large as 1 5/16".

I don't know if the Feedback AMC 2.5 or 2.0/2.3 EAO/Limas were any different to the 4.9 Big Six YFA.

I've put feelers out here and elseware for YFA info on stock FoMoCo jetting. There are all the differernt sizes and CFM's of YF's and YFA's, so its the most versilile carb in the business. Starting off at 72 hp gross (around 62 hp net) in 134 Jeeps and Henry J's, ending up with 72 hp net in a 2 liter Ranger, but a swinging by the 258 AMC's and 300 Fords in 110 to 123 hp net spikes (145- 155 gross in the 250). Thats a 100% peak hp variance from hatching to scratching.

I'm looking at the jetting for the feedback 2.0 and 2.3 Lima engines from 1983 to 1988, and the venturi and throttle sizes.

Your carb looks a lot like this one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-YF-Style-Ca ... 1531917749
Last edited by xctasy on Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:34 am, edited 9 times in total.
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #26 by xctasy » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:42 am

A-ha. The lo profile 250 and 300 YFA carb air cleaner is interchangable, as your photo the air cleaner snout stamping says. The X-shell Granada, Comete/Maverick/Monarch need these air cleaner housings as they are the low hood cars with very tall long stroke 250's. The X- shell variant versions also fit the F100 300 cube truck.

Notice that conversely, the F150 truck air cleaner serves both the 250 and 300.

This is the F150 300 air cleaner on the Carter YF equiped 250

Image

Your Carter YF air cleaner in one of its natural settings is this 78 Granada 250.


Image

That was the other side of this 80 Monarch 250 shot. Same air cleaner, I think

Image

Notice that both the Holley 1946 with its factory adaptor is 5 1/8" tall, the Carter YF lookes 5 -1/8 " without it. I guess the earlier Carter YF on auto IMCO Mustangs and the later Carter RBS would be the same height.

The 'bump' for the YF hot air automatic choke and Holley 1946 on my Fox air cleaner lookes the same.

What air filter part number are you using?
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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #27 by 1986F150six » Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:36 am

I thought of this thread when I saw this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/73-74-E100-E200 ... 58&vxp=mtr

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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #28 by xctasy » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:14 am

Ahhhh, the old 73-74 E100 E200 E300 NOS FORD D3UZ_9600_A!

Nice score for someone.


ImageImageImageImageImage


It stayed around quite a while with its extra emmisions additions..

Image
Last edited by xctasy on Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #29 by xctasy » Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:11 pm

Despite being a seriously weird lookin mother, would the huge depth at the rocker cover to hood of D3UZ-9600-A aircleaner be a better fitting air cleaner than the Frankenstang D5DF-9600-A?

Image



The E and F 300 carb hat lookes insanely tall on that 250 engine. Why didn't every X and Fox shell Granda use it, maybee the Fox 3.3's as well. Is there space for the Fox body cable accelerator linkage with this kind of air cleaner.
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FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #30 by xctasy » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:39 am

I rebuilt the cylinder head back in 2011, and quickly copied off some internet pictures from some Fairmont 3.3.

Then suddenly discovered the Holley 1946 and Ford F150 Truck, Ranger SUV or Fox body sedan Carter YFA's were often swaped about onto cars that were born with a Holley 1946.


It's very confusing, since T, B abd X code 3.3's in the Fox years only came with Holley 1946 1-bbl carbs. Just found the pictures again today in my basement while I was researching the YFA.

They were run off on my Canon iP100 printer 3-1/2 yrs ago. It was on ebay finds, so the pictures have been autopruned, and probably don't exist on the net any more, so these pictures of the photoprints are very grainy, but here they are on that high mount 1982 Fox Fairmont, a YFA carb!

The Carter YFA was also a 250 Granada carb, and fits on top of a 3.3 like they were made to. Which is kind of right, they were. This car has an L code 76-79 or 1980 C code 4.1 Granada/Monarch air cleaner, and I'm giuessing the YFA carb came from an F150 4.9 or the last of those X-shell Granny or Monarch's. Or perhaps a Jeep 2.5 or 258.


Its has an anodized blue tag which is covered by piece of flat plate cranked at an angle

That's jugs been everywhere man.

The air cleaner lookes like yours Frankenstang!


ImageImageImage

ImageImage
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #31 by Rusty_Old_F250 » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:07 pm

That aircleaner you used looks near identical to the one on my grandpa's "new" 76 f100, here's a picture:

Image

Not sure why they used sure a low profile air cleaner on that pickup, there's atleast 6" of clearance!

I'll have to keep this in mind if I ever get around to getting his 66' mustang running, I love those little carters! I just rebuilt the one on the F100 and it runs like a new truck.

Sam

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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #32 by xctasy » Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:42 pm

Yup, that's why it was branded 250/300 like Frankenstangs cleaner.

Same YFA 300 carb was used on the 250, and the 200 in some cases.


Ford parts intechanges, pretty strange. They must have made too many for the Mavericks or Granadas, and couldn't get rid of 'em. :mrgreen:
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #33 by Frankenstang » Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:34 am

xctasy wrote:What air filter part number are you using?


Fortunately there was a gently used one inside when I received the breather, but my guess will be one for a '75 Maverick 250 :?:

After a few tanks indications are she's a bit rich throughout the range so I need to do some additional tuning.

Still driving and tuning. I need to narrow down the possible jet size, which I'd rather do without having to open it up first...but may have no choice as the range of jets available from Mike's Carburetor Parts is wide and long...probably need to reduce the accel pump shot as well

http://www.carburetor-parts.com/Carter- ... _p_78.html

We quick fabbed a very home spun heat shroud collector from some 2in steel pipe and bolted it to the exhaust manifold, then routed the vacuum as planned. The snorkel diverter works, but needs some cleaning and lubricating, and it does seem to assist warm-up in colder weather.

ImageImage
ImageImage

Good enough for testing, but botched the layout a bit so it doesn't fit as tight to the stocker manifold as I planned, and I think the gauge is too thick for massaging any tighter or to be as efficient as it could be in heat sinking/collecting. So we'll probably fab a replacement from exhaust pipe scrap.

Still looking to add an accelerator dashpot (dampener).

Thanks!
-Robert
Image
66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #34 by xctasy » Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:09 am

Sadly, just like an SU or Stromberg~Zenith CD 150 or 175, the Jet and needle have to be compatible. There is an allowance, but basically jet and needle sizes cannot be made in isolation

The Slant Six forum guys have a post below with a huge jpg of every recent jet and needle combo. Well done, guys. but it big.

A 75-xxxx number goes with a 75 jet, and so-on....Things to go with things....


http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... -questions

xctasy wrote:Thanks webestang, I really appreciate that link, and have used it before a good deal.

This is a 2.3 81 post, and I don't want to ruin the flow of great 2-bbl Holley Weber and MCU control info.


Although the Ranger trucks last carb Lima engine got the Motorcraft Asin

I loved how not a 6 yet/19bonestock88 coped with his 1988 Ranger Pickups air flow limitations.

ImageImage


Regards Carter YFA info for 1983-1988 Feedback Ford Lima engines in 2.0 and 2.3 form in Foxes and Ranger pickups...

Mikes Carbs links are perfect for non feedback carb rebuilds. but pretty sad for specific model to model changes, including needles and hangers and venturi and throttle sizes. Part numbers are an entirely safe way of doing business, but don't help set up any Carter carb, and there is a total gap for the 1981 to 1988 feedback carbs.


Thanks tho'!



Whats missing is what Holley supplied in there performance literature, or what Solex or Weber supplied in the info about accelerator pumps in cc's per 10 strokes, or basic cc/min flow from the needle and fuel jet tune info...you never get that with any early Carter stuff. Today, an Edelbrock 1405 or 1406 is a Competition AFB Carter , and it is the easiest carb to tune, it eclipses the old Holley stuff because they have done step wise needle, spring, and fuel air ratio calibration.

There is a lot of Carter YF/YFA info, but its not been consolidated, so if there's a 87 hp Carter YFA metering rod and jet for an 85 Mustang, no-one in the world will have the specs. If you pulled the carb metering rod, it'll probably just have a E5 Ford part number.


If it has a 75-xxxx number, you can bet it won't be one of the 80 on this list from the Slant Six forum.

http://www.troberg-larsen.priv.no/mopar ... g_rods.jpg[img]http://www.troberg-larsen.priv.no/mopar/th_carter_bbd_metering_rods.jpg

See http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43724

So the most simple and plentiful 1-bbl carb ever made is the hardest to get info on.

If it was listed like the Carter BB series, (http://www.allpar.com/fix/fuel/carter-BB.html) it'd be a cinch to tune..
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #35 by Frankenstang » Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:21 am

Thanks xctasy for lots of good and useful info...as usual :thumbup:

Just so I'm following correctly and to recap...

I'm looking to swap the main jet size, and if I'm following correctly, big 'IF'...you're saying the jet size may or is dependent on the metering rod assembly, but I'm under the impression the metering rod assembly on my non feedback type YFA/YF is mainly for the acceleration circuit...and this carb would still have a main jet like these offered from Mike's carbs...
http://www.carburetor-parts.com/Carter- ... _p_78.html

I'm looking for any input on what size might work well assuming a 185-215cfm range (realize that's bit broad) on a 200cid motor?

I'm guessing this 'new' generic Chinese reproduction is going to be set more for a 250-300 displacement engine given their application on trucks and tractors...but it's purely a guess.

What I'd like to do is order 2-3 jets that would be appropriate or approximate for my application vs what I might find comes in these from the Chinese factory, but the list of available jets on Mike's is so long, I'm worried about making a blind stab at it. I've emailed Mike's for any info/recommendation they might have given my setup, so I'll post back what I can find out there or from additional research.
Thanks again!
-Robert
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66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #36 by JackFish » Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:08 pm

Frankenstang wrote: I've emailed Mike's for any info/recommendation they might have given my setup, so I'll post back what I can find out there or from additional research.
Thanks again!

If you mean Mike from classic inlines, sadly you'll be waiting for a long time for a response.
He passed away a couple of weeks ago. :(
1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
Yup, I bought another one.
1996 Chevy Caprice 9C1 (3)
1999 Dodge Ram 2500

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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #37 by xctasy » Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:53 pm

Frankenstang wrote:Sincerest condolences, thoughts and prayers to the Winterboers for their loss. I am shocked and saddened by this news. Mike's passing leaves a huge hole in our community. Peace be with you and your family Mike



Mike from Mikes carbs.... :bang:


CZLN6 wrote:..... Carter YF. It will require some adaptation of mounting, linkage, fuel line and air cleaner. It came on 170, 200 and 250 engines so make sure you get at least a 200 size carb. It was also used on the big sixes- 240 and 300s......

Adios, David



Now, the needel profile you use are thicker than the stock ones you have. That means you either get some one to

1.knock out another carb like yours,
2.measure yours, or
3. take a punt on a factory replacement needle and YFA jet from the 1969-1972 170 and 69-77 200 cars that ran a YFA for periods, or the 250's that ran the YFA. I can't remember which years exactly, but the 240 was always about 5 hp net down on the 250, the 300 was about 20% up on the 250 net flyweel figure.


The 1970 Maverick 200 made about 85 flywheel hp from a 115 hp net rating, so that's a good start. The 300 was calibrated for about 105 flywheel net hp.

The factory jets and needle from the 200 are your best options. That will preserve the air fuel ratio.
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #38 by Frankenstang » Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:06 am

xctasy wrote:3. take a punt on a factory replacement needle and YFA jet from the 1969-1972 170 and 69-77 200 cars that ran a YFA for periods, or the 250's that ran the YFA. I can't remember which years exactly, but the 240 was always about 5 hp net down on the 250, the 300 was about 20% up on the 250 net flyweel figure.


The 1970 Maverick 200 made about 85 flywheel hp from a 115 hp net rating, so that's a good start. The 300 was calibrated for about 105 flywheel net hp.

The factory jets and needle from the 200 are your best options. That will preserve the air fuel ratio.


This may be my best bet if I determine the A/F is out of whack. Thanks again xctasy! Finally getting my head around the relationship of the jet and needle/metering rod...an animated gif from a jeep page helped...
http://jeeptalk.net/index.php?showtopic=14950

Is it safe or a leap to assume the jet sizes offered by Mike's Carbs correspond to the largest step on the metering rod...as posted on the slantsix site?
http://www.troberg-larsen.priv.no/mopar ... g_rods.jpg

Eg 75-2176 lists .075 x .048 x .045 would this use a 075 jet?

According to Mike's Carbs sourcing the needles/metering rods is the toughy.

All this has made me wonder if my rich running of late is all due to the stock jet&needle/rod configuration on this Chinese repop carb, or could it be improved through adjustment :?: ...the first seven tanks aren't great
19.94
13.11
16.14
14.36
19.57
16.05
15.43
The 19's are roughly 75% hwy tanks, and the others are predominantly round town, where I'm admittedly not light on the pedal ;)

Obviously lots more for me to learn about these carter yf's
-Robert
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66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #39 by xctasy » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:47 am

Oh, I was wrong, there are those 26 Mikes Carbs Main Metering Jet sizes, plus others. The metering rods won't work with every one, but most 75 series rods will. There are some exceptions.



The best universal main jet kit reference is the 600 series Edelbrock 4-bbl main jets. They are marked with a three-digit part number that indicates the diameter of the metering orifice. Jet sizes starting with a 3 are smaller than 0.100 inch; jets beginning with a 4 are larger than 0.100 inch, so this 389 jet has an 0.089-inch orifice.:-

Main jets:
Size: Carter: Edelbrock:
.083 120-383 1422
.086 120-386 1423
.089 120-389 1424
.092 120-392 1425
.098 120-398 1427
.101 120-401 1429
.104 120-404 1430
.107 120-407 1431
.110 120-410 1432

.113 120-413 1433
.116 120-416 1434


I've underlines the 98 to 110 thou main jets, as one of these will likely be what you have now.

Mikes Carbs uses the common earlier Older Carter reference of

120-160 = .091",
120-166 = .0935",
120-155 = .096",
120-170 =.102,
120-161 =.104 etc


Reducing the annular radius exposed at a given vaccum point makes the carb leaner, so you will most likely be best measuring what you have, and then finding a valid other needle that is known to be leaner. Its easier to start lean, and then have it mechined back via a needle file if you can't get the right metering rod.

If that's not an option for you, then you will need to find the replacement Ford small six metering rod and main jet. Or just a metering rod at the very least. One company, Black Hawk Engineering , does YH Turbo F85 JetFire and Corvair Monza YH reprofiles, the web info they have will help you arrive at the right air fuel ratio for the price of baselined air fuel ratio measurement. with you current set up.

I'm picking that you'll be able to find any Carter YFA metering rod to suit, and you'll then be able to use there annualr area charts to adjust the air fuel ratio.

Black Hawk Engineering do a reprofilr service for sub 94 thou jets

"Choose dimensions for a new rod

If you have measured air/fuel ratio numbers for cruise and power, you can adjust the flow areas proportionately. For example, if you have a power A/F ratio of 11 to 1 and you would like to have a ratio of 12 to 1, the ratio is 11 divided by 12 or .92. If your current power flow area is 300, multiply .92 times 300 equals 276. Look in the General tables for the jet size you are using and find the flow area closest to 276. Then read the corresponding metering rod diameter. Do the same type of calculations for the cruise step.

Our current manufacturing process is limited to diameters of .054 to .094". If the metering rod you want falls outside of this range, you will have to choose another jet size to find a combination that works. The available jet sizes are .077, .080, .083, .086, .089, .092, .095, .098, .101, .104, .107, .110, .113, .116 and .119"


That then means tracking down a common junked Jeep 258, 2.5 liter I4, Ford 0HC 2.3, 170/200/250/240/300 jet. You'll get lucky enough form this...I'll help out, its just math. You'll just have to warm up your car up for 10 minutes, and get C02 readings or air fuel readings from a test station at Cruise and Power; as well, an IM test at load would be a good first start.


Then its just find and measure a jet that will lean the mixture off enough, and recheck it.

http://www.blackhawkengr.com/

http://www.blackhawkengr.com/Black%20Ha ... ustom.html


The way to work out the difference is from a known base on one of these charts with the same main metering jet.

http://www.blackhawkengr.com/General%20 ... Tables.pdf


You wont need the first 17 main jet sizes from Mikes Carbs, they are just 54 to 96 thou. Somewhere between 98 to 120 will be the possible, with 98 to 110 being the best options I'd say. One of which you may have right now.

Carter YF carbs begin to appear in 1967 on California emissions equipped engines.
By 1970 it was standard on 170's and 200's. They were rated at 150 CFM on 170 c.i. engines and 187 CFM on 200's. The YF carb was also used on the 250 engine from 1975 -79. The 250 version of the YF was rated at 195 CFM. It remained the "small six" carb until 1977 on the 200 and 1980 on the 250, and the permanant 240/300 carb from 1969 till the death of the 1-bbl F150 in 1987.

Some ballpark details from Big Sixes.

1979 Manual F150 Replacement from Ford for that year was nothing for Ford Dealer Main jet (no size diameter given) but it was part C8AZ-9533-A, and that pegs it as a C8 jet of 104 to 110, with 106 most likely.

Idle adjusting needle (assumed to be metering rod) D7PZ-9541-A (no sizes given)

For one 1979 Manual F150 4.9 Bix Six:-
Main jet is 0.1056 inches;
numbers on top face of brass main jet appear to be 120-410;
Brass metering rod number is numbered #75-2346 (which I can't find on the list)
Diameter of metering rod is 0.040 inches at tip going into main jet;
0.054 inches at second taper on metering rod,
0.815 inches on main shaft near top of rod (all measurements with digital caliper)

Other 1979 YFA carbs have been
Main Jet 0.107dia inside
numbers on top face of brass main jet appear to be 120-407;
Brass metering rod number is numbered #75-217sic (which could only be a #75-2175 or 75-2176)
No accurate dimensions exist for a so called 217


The 75-2189 was a valid metering rod on that table well.



On a Jeep, a 120-166 main jet @ .0935" would use a 75-1570 metering rod for 65 net flywheel hp.

Form LZJW 98 to 110 are valid main jet sizes.

D2 prefix are all for 1972 engines;
the only D2 carb showing for a 72 300 has a main jet of .110",
all the rest (four) are for 240's,
three of which call for a .104" jet
and the fourth one is .101".

Stock, the C8 prefix show a main jet of .104".(69 240 [.104"] with a carb tag # C8UF-M)
Smallest Big Six YFA jet listed is .098" (one model only) and the biggest is .110


Try sourcing a replacement metering rod and 98 main jet from Mikes Carbs for carb tag 1969 240 F100 carb tag # C8UF-M:-


The common ones for a way too small 134 cubic inch I4 65 hp net Jeep are:-
Carter Main Jets
Main Metering Jet
120-155 = .096"
120-160 = .091"
120-166 = .0935"

But I'm pretty sure you won't need to change what is there at all...



These two posts help best.

motzingg wrote:yep, its pretty simple. they are basic little carbs.

navigate to the link if the image doesn't display correctly:
http://oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/ ... 19_jpg.jpg


i'm pretty sure its just a 'low speed jet' and a 'metering rod jet' but the 'metering rod' is also a tuning component, you might have a mis-matched metering rod (us motorcycle guys call them a 'needle') and jet.

here is the metering rod assembly.

If you buy a rebuild kit, they usually have that pic i attached printed out for you on a big sheet of paper, still might want to take photos of the stages of carb disassembly while you are doing it, however. Here is a picture i took from when i did mine.

Image




THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Before changing jets I would try the metering rod adjustment. It has always fixed any YF mixture issues I've seen. The screw in the background raises and lowers the tapered rod in the jet. Raising it will fatten up the part throttle mixture without fattening up the WOT mixture, which I suspect is not too lean anyway. Plug readings at WOT mnust be taken after running the engine at WOT and not letting it come back down to idle while running or the WOT reading will be affected.

Modern plugs will tolerate a leaner mixture and may look white, even though the mixture is correct. This is especially noticeable on fuel injected engines.

My buddy John would always send his driver (aka his wife) down the track with a ratchet plug wrench and a spare plug. She would kill the engine at WOT, coast to a stop, change the plug in question, and bring the unsullied plug back to the pits for inspection. He was an absolute wizard at tuning Weber IR systems.
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Converting to a Carter YF and Throttle Cable

Post #40 by xctasy » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:40 am

xctasy wrote:I rebuilt the cylinder head back in 2011, and quickly copied off some internet pictures from some Fairmont 3.3.

Then suddenly discovered the Holley 1946 and Ford F150 Truck, Ranger SUV or Fox body sedan Carter YFA's were often swaped about onto cars that were born with a Holley 1946.


It's very confusing, since T, B abd X code 3.3's in the Fox years only came with Holley 1946 1-bbl carbs. Just found the pictures again today in my basement while I was researching the YFA.

They were run off on my Canon iP100 printer 3-1/2 yrs ago. It was on ebay finds, so the pictures have been autopruned, and probably don't exist on the net any more, so these pictures of the photoprints are very grainy, but here they are on that high mount 1982 Fox Fairmont, a YFA carb!

The Carter YFA was also a 250 Granada carb, and fits on top of a 3.3 like they were made to. Which is kind of right, they were. This car has an L code 76-79 or 1980 C code 4.1 Granada/Monarch air cleaner, and I'm giuessing the YFA carb came from an F150 4.9 or the last of those X-shell Granny or Monarch's. Or perhaps a Jeep 2.5 or 258.


Its has an anodized blue tag which is covered by piece of flat plate cranked at an angle

That's jugs been everywhere man.

The air cleaner lookes like yours Frankenstang!



Original photos found. This is how to YFA Carter an originally Holley 1946 3.3 Fox engine

Image


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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