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Aluminum head spring question?

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Mustang_Geezer
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Aluminum head spring question?

Post #1 by Mustang_Geezer » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:01 pm

Anyone know what the application is for the valve springs for the aluminum head? I work at a CARQUEST store and I need to order me some ASAP!

Thanks,

Doug
1966 Mustang Coupe
206 ci Inline 6
Best ET 60' 1.84 1/8 mile 8.74 @ 79.09 mph 1/4 mile 13.67 @ 98.18 mph US 131 Motorsports Park. 4/6/13
2003 F-150 FX-4 Tow vehicle.

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #2 by xctasy » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:33 pm

Your Schnider cam is custom, ISN'T IT? , so what did you order the CI head with?

SI and Clay Smith have there own supply of valve springs for Classic Inlines.The details are there in the website, and coped below with my notes. The CI head comes with Clay Smith Valve springs. You won't be able to get those from another supplier, unless you look through the Windsor parts catalogue and match the specs.

I'd order some CSC-200-TOY from Clay Smith, or talk to SI.


NB1// There are a two errors in the tables, like coil bind is 0.525, not 0.925"
NB2// The soild bind, take that 1.100" with a grain of salt, probably an error



All CI are 1.600" installed height, with bind at .580", but can cope with lift to 0.528" with a 1.65;1 roller rocker from a 320 thou net lobe lift


The soild bind, take that 1.100" with a grain of salt, probably an error


A.Call Name
B.Type
C.Seat pressure
D.Lift pressure
E.Coil Bind distance
F.Max Duration it suits
G.Notes

They are designed for 500 viton seals for clearance, I think

http://classicinlines.com/springs.asp

1.SSI-OEM-SPG
170/200/250ci
Single Spring
54 lbs
150 lbs
0.430 coil bind
Stock only
Recommend
289 valve springs


2.SSI-289-SPG 170/200/250ci
289
Single Spring
60 lbs
175 lbs
0.530
up to 260 Dur.
verify coil bind
and clearance

3.SSI-302-SPG 170/200/250ci
302
Single Spring
80 lbs
200 lbs
0.480
up to 270 Dur.
Verify coil bind
and clearance

4.SSI-302-SPG-HP 170/200/250ci
302-HP
Single Spring
100 lbs
270 lbs
0.450
up to 280 Dur.
Verify coil bind
and clearance

5.CSC-200-SST
170/200/250ci
Single Spring
w/Damper
80 lbs
170 lbs
0.525
up to 265 Dur.
Viton Seals & Machining may be Required

6.CSC-200-STY 170/200/250ci
Single Spring
w/Damper
100 lbs
180 lbs
0.525
up to 275 Dur.
Viton Seals & Machining may be Required

7.CSC-200-TOY 170/200/250ci
Dual Spring
110 lbs
260 lbs
0.525
up to 295 Dur.
Viton Seals & Machining may be Required
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #3 by Mustang_Geezer » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:59 pm

I was hoping that they weren't custom made and interchanged with something like a stock 289 302 4.6 litre 460 ci something like that. I would rather order them trough work (I work at a auto parts store) being I can have them overnite with free shipping and put them on my account at work.

Thanks,

Doug
1966 Mustang Coupe
206 ci Inline 6
Best ET 60' 1.84 1/8 mile 8.74 @ 79.09 mph 1/4 mile 13.67 @ 98.18 mph US 131 Motorsports Park. 4/6/13
2003 F-150 FX-4 Tow vehicle.

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #4 by Mustang_Geezer » Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:59 pm

Actually I was on the Classic Inlines website and it doesn't really show a difference between the stock cast head and the aluminum head spring part numbers. Now I'm really confused.
1966 Mustang Coupe
206 ci Inline 6
Best ET 60' 1.84 1/8 mile 8.74 @ 79.09 mph 1/4 mile 13.67 @ 98.18 mph US 131 Motorsports Park. 4/6/13
2003 F-150 FX-4 Tow vehicle.

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #5 by xctasy » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:52 pm

What's your peak valve lift and duration?

The first four valve springs you can get anywhere. 289, 302, 302 HP, with all the dimensions

If your cam is over 480 thou lift, and over 265 degrees duration, (and I'm certain it is) then you'll have to find a similar custom early Windsor replacement spring. The last 3 (5,6 and 7) are combination performance springs for a modified 302.


Just input the outside diameter and look for something as a replacement within spec. Classic Inlines heads don't have long valves, so they use short, squat springs, and up the poundage with flat wound damper or additional springs. Pretty much any early Windsor stuff should be close.

CC make some 942-16's

http://www.northernautoparts.com/part/cm-942-16

http://www.ebay.com/itm/COMP-SBF-289-30 ... 1251933395


Ferra make heavy poundage 302 HP singles which may fit, S10019, but they are about 130 seat, 320 open before bind. It should sit on the machined spacer.

http://www.ferrea.com/Ford-Valve-Spring ... model=3043


That should get you somewhere. If the cams been run in, I'd go for that



Good luck!
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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #6 by XMFalcon221 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:21 pm

[quote="xctasy"]


All CI are 1.600" installed height, with bind at .580", but can cope with lift to 0.528" with a 1.65;1 roller rocker from a 320 thou net lobe lift


Looks like my valve bind clearance may be touch and go, I've got the aluminium head with dual valve springs and am planning on running a cam with a measured lobe lift of .318" and 1.65:1 rockers, should put me just under the total lift of .528" with some valve lash...

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #7 by wsa111 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:08 pm

Warning, on the CI head do not machine the valve spring seat at all, otherwise you will machine into the intake port.
The correct approach is longer valves so you can use springs designed for a 1.7" spring seat height.
Doing the above you can achieve a valve lift of close to .590" using the proper springs.
Keep in mind you will need to shim up the rocker arm pedestals & will need longer pushrods.
The above will let you use a very aggressive camshaft with high lift & valve spring tensions close to 140# seat & 340# open.
Solid lifters only & with the laser oiling orifice in the lifter contact to camshaft lobe to prevent camshaft wear.
A nitride hardened camshaft is recommended.
The head has the flow capacity to accommodate the above.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #8 by Mustang_Geezer » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:39 am

Guys, not replacing anything but the springs! :D No new cam valves or anything like that.

The head is warped and it blew the number 2 cylinder on the headgasket for the 2nd time so it was time to take it and have it checked out.

I'll do some looking on the links you gave me and try to compare it at work.

Thanks!

Doug
1966 Mustang Coupe
206 ci Inline 6
Best ET 60' 1.84 1/8 mile 8.74 @ 79.09 mph 1/4 mile 13.67 @ 98.18 mph US 131 Motorsports Park. 4/6/13
2003 F-150 FX-4 Tow vehicle.

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #9 by XMFalcon221 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:39 pm

Any idea why the head warped Doug, has it been running hot or anything like that?

What head gaskets have you been using?

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #10 by Mustang_Geezer » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:31 pm

XMFalcon221 wrote:Any idea why the head warped Doug, has it been running hot or anything like that?

What head gaskets have you been using?


He said it was more of a twist in the head and not so much a warp. He said the big problem (and not a real big problem) was that the head gasket fire rings had ate into the head a bit. Nothing major just needed to be cleaned up a bit. He said all in all the head looked really good! The valves looked good, seats weren't beat up, looked pretty good for as long as I had run it.

The head gasket is a Fel-Pro.

Later,

Doug
1966 Mustang Coupe
206 ci Inline 6
Best ET 60' 1.84 1/8 mile 8.74 @ 79.09 mph 1/4 mile 13.67 @ 98.18 mph US 131 Motorsports Park. 4/6/13
2003 F-150 FX-4 Tow vehicle.

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #11 by Mustang_Geezer » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:37 pm

Dean & Bill,

Those springs don't fit MY aluminum head.

Heres my specs my machinist gave me for the springs,

OD 1.250
ID w/damper .880
ID w/o damper .930
Installed height 1.550

I spent several hours today looking through the Comp & Crane websites and there is nothing that has that installed height.

Mine is a preproduction head, maybe Mike changed something afterwords? I'll have to get in touch with him being none of the replacement springs on the classic inlines website will fit on my head.

Thanks,

Doug
1966 Mustang Coupe
206 ci Inline 6
Best ET 60' 1.84 1/8 mile 8.74 @ 79.09 mph 1/4 mile 13.67 @ 98.18 mph US 131 Motorsports Park. 4/6/13
2003 F-150 FX-4 Tow vehicle.

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #12 by xctasy » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:14 pm

If its pre production it might have GM Holden L6, V8 or Ford Australia springs. The team that cast them were Australian, and they were based on Yella Terra parts, which Mike replaced with SI.


I'd say Holden 253/308, these ones, but I think they are 1.75" installed. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Lunati-Valve ... 1106447306


http://mail.precisionintl.com/Part.aspx?ID=35501

The V8 Holdens have a very tall valve, while the Ford valve is much shorter. The little L6 Holden is most likely what it is, Yella Terra, Installed Height with Std Valves and .060” Valve Spring Insets/Shims 1.520”
Spring Seat OD. 1.250



The 283 Chev vlave and 253/308 are similar, and are used on the L6's are shorter
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #13 by xctasy » Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:46 pm

They were shorter springs for 289 valves after a October 4, 1965 change to the shorter valves. If you missmatch the wrong types, you can end up with 1.55" installed.


Somewhere, some one will have some 289 valve springs to suit that did this. There is a combination of differences between the valve keeper groves, the spring base, the insert, and the valve spring. You need to look at the valve bind issues. Something like this has happened.

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/c ... oblem.html


Your way forward is a different retainer that sits a 1.86 free height valve at 1.64.

Can you find a different retainer that won't hit the valve gear?
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #14 by Mustang_Geezer » Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:23 pm

We spent more time at work today and have come to the conclusion that no domestic spring will fit this either stock or hi-po without changing the valves out to a longer stem length.

HOWEVER I did figure out on the Classic Inlines website that the springs I need are CSC 200 STY (single w/damper) or the CSC 200 TOY (double valve spring) and these have a different install height vs the other springs listed which are for the iron 6 cylinder head.

http://www.classicinlines.com/Springs.asp

I cant find a way to order these springs on the website so I PM'd Mike for additional information. I'm in no hurry being I have till April to get it back together. I'll post some pics of it when I get it back!

Thanks,

Doug
1966 Mustang Coupe
206 ci Inline 6
Best ET 60' 1.84 1/8 mile 8.74 @ 79.09 mph 1/4 mile 13.67 @ 98.18 mph US 131 Motorsports Park. 4/6/13
2003 F-150 FX-4 Tow vehicle.

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #15 by Crosley » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:49 pm

Mustang_Geezer wrote:HOWEVER I did figure out on the Classic Inlines website that the springs I need are CSC 200 STY (single w/damper) or the CSC 200 TOY (double valve spring) and these have a different install height vs the other springs listed which are for the iron 6 cylinder head.

http://www.classicinlines.com/Springs.asp

I cant find a way to order these springs on the website so I PM'd Mike for additional information. I'm in no hurry being I have till April to get it back together. I'll post some pics of it when I get it back!

Thanks,

Doug



I find the springs (Bold) listed on the valve train parts pages for the small 6 . 60 dollars for the STY springs. 80 dollars for the TOY springs; per set of 12
Tony in AZ...

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #16 by xctasy » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:45 pm

Mustang_Geezer wrote:Actually I was on the Classic Inlines website and it doesn't really show a difference between the stock cast head and the aluminum head spring part numbers. Now I'm really confused.



Oh, I see what you ment. There isn't a difference, its the spring seats position relative to the valve that makes the difference.

The free spring becomes 80 thou shallower installed. Thats becasue there is now an insert, and a spring pad spacer which preloads the spring more.

And Crosley was right, see this.

http://classicinlines.com/proddetail.as ... SC-STY-SPG


But although it says 1.68" installed, that spring ends up as 1.60 installed on the aluminum head.

Your spring seats you have won't be as machined as the later ones.


Im sure Mike will help you. The 1.55 figure your machinist got is now the question. 50 thou difference to 1.60" installed Clay Smith CSC-STY-SPG spring.
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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #17 by Mustang_Geezer » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:05 pm

I was at the machine shop today and he showed me that it is 1.55 a 1.60 or 1.65 will not work because of coil spring bind. I PM'd Mike to see if he had any info. The springs I have are not small block Ford springs and they have a 2 piece retainer.

Its not a big deal. I (we) just thought it would be eay to replace the springs now. In the future we are going longer valves so we can and different springs, locks and keepers.

Not complaining or anything like that, just trying to solve a mystery! :thumbup: :nod:

Thanks,

Doug
1966 Mustang Coupe
206 ci Inline 6
Best ET 60' 1.84 1/8 mile 8.74 @ 79.09 mph 1/4 mile 13.67 @ 98.18 mph US 131 Motorsports Park. 4/6/13
2003 F-150 FX-4 Tow vehicle.

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #18 by Mustang_Geezer » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:40 pm

Finally found some springs that would fit my head and I had them in my shop at home! After many hours of searching for a match on the internet I was cleaning my shop up and noticed my old set of Clifford Performance valve springs I had ordered for my old iron log head a few years ago.

Dropped them off at the machine shop this morning and he did some measuring and said they were a really good fit, just had to test ALL the springs to make sure they were all still allright.

Hopefully they all test out allright so I can get the head back on!

Later,

Doug
1966 Mustang Coupe
206 ci Inline 6
Best ET 60' 1.84 1/8 mile 8.74 @ 79.09 mph 1/4 mile 13.67 @ 98.18 mph US 131 Motorsports Park. 4/6/13
2003 F-150 FX-4 Tow vehicle.

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #19 by wsa111 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:53 pm

Doug, Clifford uses the Pioneer line of springs.
Years ago it used to be a dual spring, a couple of years ago he went to a single spring with damper.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #20 by Mustang_Geezer » Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:36 pm

wsa111 wrote:Doug, Clifford uses the Pioneer line of springs.
Years ago it used to be a dual spring, a couple of years ago he went to a single spring with damper.


Bill,

They are double springs from the early 2000's? I bought the aluminum head in 06 IIRC so they have to be from 03 or 04. They are definitely doubles not a single with a damper.

Later,

Doug
1966 Mustang Coupe
206 ci Inline 6
Best ET 60' 1.84 1/8 mile 8.74 @ 79.09 mph 1/4 mile 13.67 @ 98.18 mph US 131 Motorsports Park. 4/6/13
2003 F-150 FX-4 Tow vehicle.

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #21 by Mustang_Geezer » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:02 pm

The Clifford double valve springs worked perfectly and are now installed in my head. I looked all over there website and it appears that the don't make them any more. Glad I had some NOS ones in my shop! We also used their hardened valve locks and retainer.

IIRC they are 130 on the seat and 260 at lift.

I'd have to say since mine is one of the pre-production heads and was made in Australia that it wasn't machined the same as the later US made heads. Thanks guys for all your help trying to find springs for it!!

Later,

Doug
1966 Mustang Coupe
206 ci Inline 6
Best ET 60' 1.84 1/8 mile 8.74 @ 79.09 mph 1/4 mile 13.67 @ 98.18 mph US 131 Motorsports Park. 4/6/13
2003 F-150 FX-4 Tow vehicle.

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #22 by FalconSedanDelivery » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:36 pm

Is that a typo 130 on the seat , is on the High side needed for any solid flat tappet cam and more than I would run on a Hyd , also 260 Open is on The low side for either , also if your going to break in a new Cam 130 is TOO much initially
Falcon 6's, FE's I Like them both , Sold all My 6 cyl stuff ( for now at least ) glad to pass along some tips though

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #23 by wsa111 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:55 pm

FSD, I don't think that is a typo.
Clifford years ago used pioneer springs. I used to have the part #'s on the outer & the # for the inner.
This combo normally is 110-115 on the seat @ the spring height on the ford head.
Since Doug has one of Mike's first heads the installed height is probably less than it should be.
I believe Doug is using the same camshaft as before so there is no break-in needed.
After the springs are used they should settle down to 115-120 area.
I have used many springs of that tension on initial break-in, but you better have everything lubricated to perfection or you will face a wiped lobe.
Using seat tension of 135# & open 330# I always use solid lifters with the small laser cut oil orifice in the center of the contact surface of the lifter & have the camshaft nitride hardened.
The safest way is to remove the inner spring & then reinstall after break-in.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, DSII dist. MSD-6al & MSD-Blaster 8252 Coil. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #24 by Mustang_Geezer » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:09 pm

Nope, no typo! This is the cam I bought from Bill 3 years ago when I put my new (current) engine together. My engine builder is happy with it and so am I! There is no break in...I freshened up the head NOT the engine.

I have 2 carbs I'm going to try on it a aluminum 600 cfm Holley and a 465 cfm Holley. Both are new with quick change secondary springs, rear jet conversion blocks, jet extensions in the rear and both have no chokes and milled choke horns. Going to see once and for all which is better on a aluminum head.

Track times don't lie!

Later,

Doug
1966 Mustang Coupe
206 ci Inline 6
Best ET 60' 1.84 1/8 mile 8.74 @ 79.09 mph 1/4 mile 13.67 @ 98.18 mph US 131 Motorsports Park. 4/6/13
2003 F-150 FX-4 Tow vehicle.

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #25 by FalconSedanDelivery » Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:34 pm

Well I stand by my statement Although I dabbled in the Falcons 6's Ive worked on LOTS of Race engines and Was in charge of Head assembly at a well Known Super stock Stock Ford Builder , Those Valve specs are NOT what I would run , and yes track times don't lie , My Tri Power Log head went low 14's at 91 on the Breaks on a 95 degree 80% humidity Day , you do what you want your money , my advise is free
Falcon 6's, FE's I Like them both , Sold all My 6 cyl stuff ( for now at least ) glad to pass along some tips though

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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #26 by 80broncoman » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:04 pm

Make for SURE that the Valve springs do NOT SIT DIRECTLY on the the Aluminum head.
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Mustang_Geezer
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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #27 by Mustang_Geezer » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:19 pm

Yep, the springs have pads they set on, no worries there!

Faron,

Not getting in a pissing match but my machinist is well known in the Indiana and Michigan area for high performance stuff and I trust him and his opinion.

As you well know I have done a lot more then just "dabble" with inline 6's for the past 16 years and I have the fastest n/a small six on the forum and have proof (time slips and video) that says I have went well into the 13's with MY COMBO. And I stand by it. I was the 1st on the forum to run a "small 6" in the 15's, 14's and the 13's in the qtr mile and I can back everything up with pictures movies and time slips.

I guess everyone has there opinion.
1966 Mustang Coupe
206 ci Inline 6
Best ET 60' 1.84 1/8 mile 8.74 @ 79.09 mph 1/4 mile 13.67 @ 98.18 mph US 131 Motorsports Park. 4/6/13
2003 F-150 FX-4 Tow vehicle.

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FalconSedanDelivery
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Re: Aluminum head spring question?

Post #28 by FalconSedanDelivery » Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:42 pm

I know you have done more than dabble , yes you have the fastest ( with an aluminum head ) I stand by my concern with the spring specs I have BOTH the Drag Racing experience , AND Engine Work , I am NOT saying Change anything ( although I would ) It was a caution , you do what you feel is ok , I wish you the Best , Not a pissing contest
Falcon 6's, FE's I Like them both , Sold all My 6 cyl stuff ( for now at least ) glad to pass along some tips though

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