'62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Not a problem.

First it looked like the locator was part of and the same material as the guide.
Then your machinist verified that the locator is steel and the guide is bronze so they can't be one piece which means the steel locator was pressed on to the guide.
Then I called the company that will be doing future production for Matt and even though they haven't done any heads yet they felt that the locator was just a press on item.
 
pmuller9":3qxuz8l0 said:
Not a problem.

First it looked like the locator was part of and the same material as the guide.
Then your machinist verified that the locator is steel and the guide is bronze so they can't be one piece which means the steel locator was pressed on to the guide.
Then I called the company that will be doing future production for Matt and even though they haven't done any heads yet they felt that the locator was just a press on item.
Click to expand...

It sounds like the answer is definite now - thanks for making the call. Since the locator was pressed onto the guide and only accessible from one side, is it practical to pull it off or more
practical to machine it off?

Thanks
Bob
 
wsa111 was kind enough to supply a cutaway view of a stock head
Note the cast-in spring locator.
It appears that the insert was added to the aluminum head to duplicate the stock head for single spring applications and could be removed for double springs.

WlbLkMj.jpg
 
pmuller9":3gfbmsvd said:
wsa111 was kind enough to supply a cutaway view of a stock head
Note the cast-in spring locator.
It appears that the insert was added to the aluminum head to duplicate the stock head for single spring applications and could be removed for double springs.

WlbLkMj.jpg
Click to expand...

@pmuller,

Can you send me the name and phone number of the company that will be making the new batch of heads (by PM)? My machinist might go forward after talking to that company, if Matt Cox doesn’t respond.

Thanks
Bob
 
Greetings Ford Six Fans,

After my machinist talked with Matt Cox, it turns out there's another wrinkle in this.

The valve guides on the CI/VI aluminum head include a step or ring to prevent the valve guide from sinking down into the softer aluminum of the head (pics from Matt Cox):





My machinist is uncertain if it is possible to machine the steel spring locator down level with the surrounding aluminum, without removing the step or ring in the valve guide. He's going to try machining one slowly and look at the results. If it's OK, he will machine the rest of the valve guides accordingly. If the step or ring in the valve guide is removed, he will remove and replace all of the valve guides. He says that the risk of running without the step or ring in the valve guide is unacceptably high, the valve guides might sink into the softer aluminum if enough miles are put on the engine, especially with the higher lift and longer duration of the new cam, and the higher pressures of the new dual springs.

Thanks
Bob
 
Bob
Thanks for the info.
I wonder if the next shop will improve on some of these problems.
A person has got to be able to run dual springs for high rpm operation
aside from the fact that the head needs to have longer valves at least as an option.
 
:unsure: Interesting Delma! Bob, how much needs to be machined off the valve guides lock rings outside Dia. for the inner springs to fit on the valve spring seats? As an alternative what about using a spring cup to bring the spring seats up to the same level of the guides retaining ring, or as a one piece part that also incorporates the valve guides locking ring into it? Clay Smith has listings for the spring cups. Good luck (y) :nod:
 
Bob is the following correct?
The installed height is already on the tight side.
Adding more under the spring would be a problem.
 
bubba22349":o7v0yrkj said:
:unsure: Interesting Delma! Bob, how much needs to be machined off the valve guides lock rings outside Dia. for the inner springs to fit on the valve spring seats? As an alternative what about using a spring cup to bring the spring seats up to the same level of the guides retaining ring, or as a one piece part that also incorporates the valve guides locking ring into it? Clay Smith has listings for the spring cups. Good luck (y) :nod:
Click to expand...

@bubba,

The steel spring locator (is that what you're calling a lock ring? We've also called it an insert) is about 3/16" thick and protrudes about 3/16" radially past the valve guides. So you'd have to machine through 3/16" of steel spring locator to a depth of 3/16" to get down to the aluminum valve spring perch (so both the inner and outer coils sit level with each other).



As I understand it, installing the springs with the inner coil sitting on top of the steel spring locator would result in unacceptably high pressure from the inner coil (most notably, at highest lift). Bringing the outer coil up the same level as the steel spring locator would therefore be even worse. As I understand it, the inner coil needs to be sitting at the level of the aluminum spring perch, same level as the outer coil.

Thanks
Bob
 
pmuller9":s9m1ql4s said:
Bob is the following correct?
The installed height is already on the tight side.
Adding more under the spring would be a problem.
Click to expand...

@pmuller,

The installed height is perfect for the outer coil, but already tight for the inner coil because of the steel spring locator. Yes, anything more under either or both coils would make the situation worse.

I don't really have a feel for how much pressure an additional 3/16" platform for the inner coil would add, but I can imagine that at highest lift (.512 is advertised at 1.6:1) that 3/16" becomes proportionally a lot more than it is with the valve on the seat.

Thanks
Bob
 
62Ranchero200":11mb3nsj said:
bubba22349":11mb3nsj said:
:unsure: Interesting Delma! Bob, how much needs to be machined off the valve guides lock rings outside Dia. for the inner springs to fit on the valve spring seats? As an alternative what about using a spring cup to bring the spring seats up to the same level of the guides retaining ring, or as a one piece part that also incorporates the valve guides locking ring into it? Clay Smith has listings for the spring cups. Good luck (y) :nod:
Click to expand...

@bubba,

The steel spring locator (is that what you're calling a lock ring? We've also called it an insert) is about 3/16" thick and protrudes about 3/16" radially past the valve guides. So you'd have to machine through 3/16" of steel spring locator to a depth of 3/16" to get down to the aluminum valve spring perch (so both the inner and outer coils sit level with each other).



As I understand it, installing the springs with the inner coil sitting on top of the steel spring locator would result in unacceptably high pressure from the inner coil (most notably, at highest lift). Bringing the outer coil up the same level as the steel spring locator would therefore be even worse. As I understand it, the inner coil needs to be sitting at the level of the aluminum spring perch, same level as the outer coil.

Thanks
Bob
Click to expand...

Hi Bob, sounds like there are no good solutions for doing a duel spring install with the standard length valves. Have you looked at any of the available Bee Hive type single springs? Good luck (y) :nod:
 
@bubba,

As I understand it, the dual springs were originally an option on the aluminum heads when the heads were first sold by Mike Winterboer. I never heard that different valves were used for the dual springs, so I believe it's possible to install the dual springs with the original valves.

My machinist is going to try machine through one of the spring locators. If this does not work, he will remove and replace all of the valve guides.

Also, I degreed the cam one more time, incorporating all I've learned lately: with a dial indicator extension directly on top of the lifter, starting and ending total duration at .006, finding intake centerline by looking at the positions .050 before and .050 after max lift. I'm still a bit uncertain about the results, which are not much different from before:



Some eye candy included from the build; I've always loved Ford dark blue, and this is the first chance I've had to paint the engine that color:









Thanks
Bob
 
Bob
First off you did a great job checking the cam timing events!

You were wondering why the .050" points were 9 degrees more than spec.
Also the lobe lift was .285" instead of .320"

They gave you CSC 280-09 HHP cam.
280/280, 238/238, .456" @ 1.6 which is .285" lobe lift.
 
Bob, if you need more spring installed height, Com. Cams has a keeper which will give you another .050"
 
HI Bob, Mike had offered me one of the C. i. Heads back then for my project I sure wish I would have taken him up on that offer. I wonder if very many of the V.I. Heads were ordered the duel springs as an option would be interesting to see the way he did that, plus they also did porting work as an option. Maybe "Does 10's" knows they were also working on Mike's 1969 Mustang build back then, wonder what became of that car?. There have been a couple of the Aluminum heads lately were slightly longer valves are being used to take advantage of even more choices of springs plus the ability to have a higher lift cam to also take more advantage of their superior upper port flow. If you want to advance the cam some more you could use an offset crankshaft key. The engine detailing sure looks great in the Ford Dark Blue. I have also been curious of how your pervious cam degreed out and which timing cam gear was used. Best of luck (y) :nod:
 
I degreed the Clay Smith 280H cam with the head off, and am uncertain of the results. The cam was new, never run (no wear on the lobes), with "CSC 280H-0-B" stamped on the rear. I purchased this cam from a forum member, who received it from Mike several years before that. Full disclosure: I have been known to overthink things - this could be one of those cases.
This is a quote on a post #54 close to the top.
This is on Clay Smiths web site.
https://www.claysmithcams.com/h-280-0-b ... 0-200-250/
 
:beer: I have to say this has really been a great discussion with Bob and everyone on his 250 upgrades. :nod: (y)
 
pmuller9":2bl2iidw said:
Bob
First off you did a great job checking the cam timing events!

You were wondering why the .050" points were 9 degrees more than spec.
Also the lobe lift was .285" instead of .320"

They gave you CSC 280-09 HHP cam.
280/280, 238/238, .456" @ 1.6 which is .285" lobe lift.
Click to expand...

I see that one in the Classic Inlines archive, but it’s not on Clay Smith’s web site and no cam card for it on the Classic Inlines archive. Opinion of how it may run on my 250? A bit less lift, a bit more duration? RPM range is a bit higher? I can use the MSD 6-AL to limit the revs if needed.

Thanks
Bob
 
62Ranchero200":3v3122ie said:
Opinion of how it may run on my 250? A bit less lift, a bit more duration? RPM range is a bit higher? I can use the MSD 6-AL to limit the revs if needed.
Thanks
Bob
Click to expand...
That cam is meant for an iron head where the higher valve lift flow is limited and you make up for it with longer duration.
It would be a waste to use it in a good flowing aluminum head.
The .056" loss of lift will decrease the midrange torque significantly

The other problem is that the 280-9 cam has 20 degrees of .050" overlap.
Rough idle and no power till the engine smooths out near 2000 rpm.
The 280-10 cam has 11 degrees of overlap for a comparison.

Don't use it!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

M
All Small Six Large Log Head Questions
2
Replies
23
Views
1K
drag-200stang
D
Fred C
All Small Six Problem Finding Valve Springs
Replies
10
Views
540
427John
4
S
All Small Six Carburation
2
Replies
21
Views
1K
nearGettysburg
N
DON
All Small Six Oil pump/stud clearance issue
Replies
4
Views
200
DON
DON
D
All Small Six 65 Mustang 200 Need Help
Replies
17
Views
668
Dshak65
D
Back
Top