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need some input

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rbohm
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need some input

Post #1 by rbohm » Tue May 19, 2020 1:28 am

i am considering swapping either a volvo inline six or bmw inline six into my falcon. both companies do have tied with ford, ford owned volvo for a while, and ford installed bmw inline diesels in some lincolns in the mid 80s.

so advice, suggestions? it would be a fairly easy way to get 300hp in my falcon, and still keep a six with ties to ford in the car.
64 falcon
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Re: need some input

Post #2 by bubba22349 » Tue May 19, 2020 3:47 am

I worked on a few of the early Volvos (1957?) coupes great little cars, on a six there is S16 Turbo if it could be converted to an front to back configuration from transverse. Also worked on a few BMW's how about a M88 engine those 3.5 L six'es had lots of variants over their many years. I worked on even more Jaguars and their XK6 had a very long production run with variants the tall deck blocks from 3.4, 3.8 to 4.2 L (the 3.8 can be bored out to a 4.2 too) to me it's one great looking and sounding engine with lots of performance potential and performance parts available too, plus Ford had a conection with Jag for awhile too. Good luck on the swap planing. :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: need some input

Post #3 by rbohm » Tue May 19, 2020 2:33 pm

i thought about the jag six, and i do like them, but it seems to me that it is closer in size to the 300. its still an option though.
64 falcon
66 mustang
05 grand marquis

my mind is aglow with whiriling
transient nodes of thought
careening through a cosmic vapor
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Re: need some input

Post #4 by xctasy » Wed May 20, 2020 1:25 am

The other options are the uni-pitch 3.76/3.9375 Nissan L20/24/26/28 sixes (L series and Z series pitched on the outer cylinders, BMW 2.8/3/0/3.2/3.5 on the inner cylinders, average bore spacing same as the XKE, but heaps shallower with the exception of the 2.4 AND 2.8 liter twin cam engines.

Holden 186/200, same 4.08" bore spacing as the ford small six.

The Volvo in line six ohv, a uni pitch 4.155 and 4.17 pitch engine, which is the same average bore spacing as the Lima 2.0/2.3/2.5 OHC engines

The GM 4200 Twin Cam, an alloy Barra with 4.045 bore spacings

The old AM General and Hudson based OHC 3.8 liter, a Ford 3.9 SOHC Intech style engine. 4-3/8" bore centres just like the 196/232/258 and 4 liter AMC/Jeep based engines from the rambler.

The Tojo 2JZ, a very hard to modified engines that is loved buy others, no me.


The Englsh Zephyr 155 cube four bearing 3.78" bore spacing engine based on the Kent plat-form was made from 1958 to 1966; Rudd and Raymond Mays got the basics of the Kent engine worked out in the alloy Ruddspeed AC Ace in 1961-1962, but they only made 38 of them before Carole Shelby turned the 15.6 second 168 hp car into a 13.8 second 289 Snake Chalmer. The in line six probably hd the the best potential because a 1600/1800/2000 Cosworth BDA head is 3.78" bore spacing just like the Mzada 2.3/2.5's in the 6's and Cx8'S. Ford asked Mazda to repithch the 1983-2000 1.6/1.8/2.0/2.2 and 2.6 Magnum gsoline and diesel 3.81" bore center engine into the ages old 1950 to 1959 onwards Kent 3.78: bore spacing's, and its effectively a chain driven BDA.

The Cosworth head is is what Toyota copied on the 3S-GE 4 cylinders and 1JZ/2JZE engines. Same crazy low shore softness bearing housings but on an even narrower 3.615" differential bore spacing.


The later 1973 to 1989 W123/126 and G wagon 2.8 280E engine.

The Jag AJ6, a cut down V12 with center cylinders re-pitched to 4.25"

The 240/300 Big Six

The 225 slant, which can be un-slanted. IIRC, 3.94/3.96 bore spacings.

Good fortune. You've got your work cut out for you. Ford Australia did it best... they fixed the intake breathing and kept the basic 144/170/200/250 architecture. Triple carbs on a log head will fix everything. So will an alloy Classic in lines and VI head, so wll a cross flow, and so will an Intech SOHC or Barra DOHC.

BMC, Triumph, Leyland and Rover made some great in line sixes; the idea that the Grass is Greener is a very sad thing when just giving the fuel system a straight shot will turn a little 105 hp Gross 170 into a 280 hp net 6500 rpm wild machine with four bearing crank and stock head casting reworked.
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
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FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: need some input

Post #5 by bmbm40 » Wed May 20, 2020 8:29 pm

Sounds pretty good. Are Volvo sixes plentiful?
It may not fit easily but the Jeep 4.0 litre has stroker kits and other items like heads and more available. Not really Ford related though.
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Re: need some input

Post #6 by rbohm » Thu May 21, 2020 2:20 pm

volvo made their sixes for quite a number of years, though most of them went into front or all wheel drive cars, and the engine is transversely mounted.
64 falcon
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Re: need some input

Post #7 by xctasy » Fri May 22, 2020 9:23 pm

rbohm wrote:i am considering swapping either a volvo inline six or bmw inline six into my falcon. both companies do have tied with ford, ford owned volvo for a while, and ford installed bmw inline diesels in some lincolns in the mid 80s.

so advice, suggestions? it would be a fairly easy way to get 300hp in my falcon, and still keep a six with ties to ford in the car.



Born as the M60, the M20 production gasoline based M21 of the 1984-1985 L Vin code LSC and Continental Hash 7 2.4 liter is a Siamese bore engine with 3.586" bore spacing's while the 2JZ Toyotas are about 3.622 bore spacing (the 4 cylinder 3S-GE's and 6 cylinders are not related; they share parts and plants, but have transfer line changes and mirror imaged parts despite similar bell-housing casting patterns).


The BMW engine is a gasoline the special export 520/320 and /523i/323i/525e/325e/527/327e engine, an internally hated base which BMW only made because it needed a six cylinder engine to match the engine Ford used in the Taunus/Cortina V6 in 2 and 2.3 liter form.

It was a 4 bbl or Jetronic K or LEII port EFi engine. Remember, the 1973/1979 world oil supply stoush forced all car makers to backtrack on new V8's and V12'S. Audi was using an In line 5, so BMW had to go six cylinder. The Diesel re-engineer came about after the V12 version of the M20/M21 six got sh!+ canned after the 1973 and 1979 Opec Petroleum genuflection.


The engine was continued and became the M3 base which was universally loved.

details here on the Ford supplied engine for 84/85

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... ory-Diesel

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... cars/page6
xctasy wrote:The flop of the Lincoln-BMW Diesel and the SX4 AMC Cross over were basically similar to the 80 LTD and Fatstang era sales flops.

If the public have it in there mind that the concept is a social turkey rather than a focal swann, it'll take years to pare back ground. Of course, the Fox Mustang started off much like the 80 Panther Fords...seen as a cost expedient throw away stop gap car like an early Falcon, but soon, the Fox and Panther both just grew in public image, but it took a long time. The SX4 was messed up by the Applicance Motor Companies poor warranty claims. In a time when Chrysler Corp was bankrupt and got all the Federal funds, AMC was a leaper. It was probably in worse shape than Mopar, but didn't get the help the product deserved. AMC had in basic design and architecture, great product with awful annual styling changes, very poor detail execution, and it was seen, from the account of most of my American friends, as being a novel idea with too much to go wrong. Sad, cause a T5 speed 258 Jeep engined SX4 was a very cool car. But the swann genes of the AMX chassis it was based on could just as soon produce revert to a Gremlin, rather the "The Machine esque" SX4.

Info?

See this article from a June 79 Australian Wheels magazine. Its metric, tho:(:

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In the case of the BMW Diesel, it was around five years before in 1979, and in 10 psi boost turbo form, powered the worlds quickest and fastest diesel, the pre production 115 hp 324td. Maximum torque was 237 Nm, 175 lb-ft, good for 109 mph, 18 second 1/4 mile, 0-60 mph in under 11.5 seconds and a 5200 rpm rev range better than the 4700 rpm for the later gasoline 525e! It was later down rated to 165 lb-ft, or 220Nm.

Both it and the 325e/527e concept engines were based on the same Siamese 323i European market BMW block.

Water in fuel, high sulfur diesel and the Olds 350 diesel inoculated anyone from ever buying diesels again.

The Cummings Dodges have sort of brought acceptability back, but even in the 80's a 300TD Benz were hard to shift after the GM diesel.

Ford picked up a really great diesel, which should have been a front line engine for other Fox bodies, but like the Magnum 3.81" bore spacing Mazda 626 2 liter diesel option in the Ford Tempo, it just fizzed out

So these great little engines with excellent 4 speed over drive ZF gearboxes and reliable BMW engine were just EPA/CAFE conscience cars, gap fillers which in which diesel means DIE, Sell and Exchange..

Along with the LSC and all 108.4" wheelbase Foxes, it was the FoMoCo car I'd love to own the most.

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Mike 1157 used the later S54 ITB EFi intake from the M3 to fit to the 250 x flow six.


the Getrag 260 four wheel drive S54 engine 325Ix buildup post!

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/325ix-s54-e30-swap/87203/page1/

Image

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You could grab any M20, M21 or S54, and make it fit your engine bay.

But take me off your X mass cart list. I've had more Toyota and Nissan six cylinder engines than you've had hot dinners,

I've filled out a Burt Hurt report already...


Image
Last edited by xctasy on Fri May 22, 2020 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: need some input

Post #8 by xctasy » Fri May 22, 2020 9:39 pm

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... n-the-road!
xctasy wrote:
Image

the T code engine has exactly the same 19.5 second 1/4 mile acceleration figures and torque curve as the L vin code BMW 115 hp 1985 Turbo Diesel 2.4 in the Lincoln LSC, and the European 86 hp four cylinder Peugeot engined 2.5 Diesel Ford Granada and all the General Motors 3.3 liter V car 106 hp sedans of that 1978 to 1980 era. S-L-O-W


What they never had was any power past 85 mph or any real economy like a 5.0 SROD or T5 Mustang could.

A lota people bagged the 26 mpg the 4.2 and 24 mpg 5.0 liter V8's gave when cruised around a 55 mph, but the 3.3 was certainly no better.

I mean in 1979 to 1982 saying yes to an 85 to 94 hp in line six you effectively said no to what,

a fairly expensive $1000 dollars for the optional 5.0 liter 2-bbl 139 hp engine and standard stick shift and 17 second 1/4 mile that 1978-1979 year,

why was it that you got the same fuel use when you said Nyet to 54 hp and optioned the 85 hp T code?

Even the 1980-1982 4.2 V8 with 115 hp would run away and hide with 18 second flat quarters, 108 MPH top speed and another potentially give 1.5 mpg at 55 mph.

My wife said it best... "how come your 3.3 Fox in liner doesn't get of its ass like our old 131 HP 4.1iter Falcon GL did?

Image

Its got the same sound, same basic engine, same kind of big, light on its feet Falcon / American style car...why don't you put a 4.1 engine like the Falcon had in it?"

I told her what I tell everyone... Ford USA downgraded that 200/ 3/3 liter engine as an economy low rent engine option to the 1962 Fairlane, and the 200 never changed a jot or iota from then until when they killed it in the 87 hp 1983 Fairmont.

You want 4 or 5 liter performance or economy, put in a 4 or 5 liter V8.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: need some input

Post #9 by xctasy » Fri May 22, 2020 10:05 pm

rbohm wrote:volvo made their sixes for quite a number of years, though most of them went into front or all wheel drive cars, and the engine is transversely mounted.



Volvo used the Audi based VW LT six cylinder engine in OHC Diesel form in the 264 and 760 diesels. It was AMC Pacer and 924 Porsche based from the early 4 cylinder Audi 80/Fox engine, before the VW Rabbit 1.5/1.6/1.8 four cylinder engines became 5 cylinder 2.0 and 2.2 engines for the Audi Fox and Quattro and 5000. Volvo purchased the tooling to make Diesel in line six cylinder engines till the early 90's.

Then Volvo when to its own modular 5 and 6 cylinder in line engines. The earlier 164E Sixes were Amazon 122 and 144 B series based, and that is what every Volvo was from 1920 to 1975 when the non Volvo PRV V6 came out...always a 4.17" nominal bore spacing four or six cylinder engine.

The all alloy PRV 90 degree Vee Six was largely a peculiarity in that it was a distant Citroen SM and Maserati Merak V6 in concept, effectively a Quad Cam 90 degree Maserati V8 base, and used the early Quattraporte based 4.2/4.7.4.9 bore spacing tooling, which was then set up in France after the Maserati relationship was terminated in 1975. The PRV had huge block architecture differences to the Maserati and Citroen 2.7 and later 3.0 engine, but it shared bored spacings.

The iron block Chrysler C180 and Matra the last iron block Peugeot 505STi used the same transfer line tooling. The French 90 degree engines were exceptionally smart, but a traditional wet sleeve engine with open deck, and it spawned the other Dourvin four cylinder engines for the 405/505 and still makes Nissan V-sixes today on a 4.25" bore spacing.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: need some input

Post #10 by xctasy » Fri May 22, 2020 10:21 pm

Nissan L 2.8 liter. Again, gasoline or diesel versions on the same bore spacings


viewtopic.php?f=13&t=79779&p=617316&hilit=LD28#p617316

Jatco 3 or 4 speed overdrive

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=80316&p=623377&hilit=LD28#p623377
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: need some input

Post #11 by rbohm » Sat May 23, 2020 7:54 am

X as usual you are a font of information and amusement. keep up the good work my friend.
64 falcon
66 mustang
05 grand marquis

my mind is aglow with whiriling
transient nodes of thought
careening through a cosmic vapor
of invention

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Re: need some input

Post #12 by Firepower354 » Sun May 24, 2020 1:13 pm

AJ6/16 seems decent. Only .050 more bore spacing than the Small Six

Or, the quirky 3.7L Mercruiser four? With an aluminum 460 head, it's absurdly light and makes decent power.
Stroker 460 method of offset grind for BBC rods puts them in the 4L range, if one wanted.

4200 GM Atlas/Vortec is way too tall, I'd think. They turn up cheap but don't fit much.
It gets 10MPG, but goes up to 14 if I lie.

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