All Small Six Camshaft Degree Troubleshooting Help

[65MustangI6]

This is my first build where I'm taking the time to degree the camshaft and I'm running into problems. I'm hoping someone can help me figure out what I'm doing wrong. Here's what I've done (twice now) and I continue to come up with the same numbers.

1) I'm using the JP Performance double roller timing chain that I got from Vintage Inlines. I lined up the camshaft (timing mark down) and crankshaft (0 degree up, no advance or retard) sprockets and installed the timing chain on the keyways.
2) I cranked the engine clockwise to get #1 piston coming up on compression stroke. Installed a piston stop strap and continued to bring the piston to the stop and wrote down the degree from the degree wheel. I then went counterclockwise and brought the piston back to the stop writing down the degree. Added them together and divided by two. TDC was at 24 degrees. I rotated the wheel to 24 degrees and then cranked the engine both directions to confirm 24 degrees was TDC. It was. Removed the strap and cranked the engine to show TDC (0) on the wheel and the piston at it's highest point of travel.
3) Dropped a solid lifter in the #1 intake lifter bore and set up my dial indicator and zeroed it out. Cranked the engine clockwise until intake lifter was at max lift. (Which was confirmed by cam card lobe lift of .293.). Zeroed out the dial gauge again and then went counterclockwise about .100 and then clockwise to .050 to get before max lift. The degree wheel reading was 51.5. I continued clockwise back to 0 then to .050 after max lift and got 137.5. That totaled 189, divided by two gets me to 94.5. My cam card has ICL at 106. I can't imagine being that far off, which is why I think I'm doing something wrong.

I've included cam card and a couple of photos. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[pmuller9]

It can most certainly be 12 degrees off.
That is why we encourage everyone to check the cam timing.

Verify the error by using the duration method.
Bottom out the intake lifter and set the dial indicator to zero.
Turn the crankshaft clockwise until the lifter rises .050"
The degree wheel should be right at TDC.

Continue turning the crankshaft clockwise past max lift and then to .050" from lifter bottom.
That should be at 32 degrees ABDC.

Is that the only page of cam specs?

 

[65MustangI6]

Thanks, good to know it could be that far off. After following your instructions on the duration method however, I'm back to believing user error. I turned the crankshaft until the #1 intake lifter was on the base of the cam and then zeroed out the dial indicator. Continuing clockwise, brought the dial indicator to .050 and got a reading of 10 degrees BTDC. Continuing clockwise I stopped at .050 from the cam base and got 22 degrees ABDC. See photos.

I've also attached the cam card I received from Comp Cams. The other information that came with the camshaft were the installation and degree instructions and warranty information.

Based on your feedback, I'm off 10 degrees. I just can't figure out where I made the mistake or how to correct it. Any recommendations?

 

[pmuller9]

It's not your fault. You installed the cam correctly.
I am going to try to get the intake lobe center to 107 degrees ATDC. 106 degrees may not be possible.

Install the crankshaft key at the +8 but use the tooth that is to the left of the +8 to line up with the dot on the camshaft gear.

What we are doing is advancing the crankshaft 8 degrees with the keyway then retarding it 19 degrees by skipping a tooth to give us an 11 degree retarded position from where we are now.
That should place the cam lobe center at 107 degrees ATDC and the intake lifter should raise .050" from the bottom at 1 degree ATDC.

 

[drag-200stang]

I would like to voice my opinion on some common missed things on the small six.
Cam spacer goes behind the cam pin with the inside bevel toward the cam journal.
Is the oil galley plug in place, it is by the upper cam retaining plate bolt, some call it thrust plate, I cannot quite see it in the pic?
I do not think that a star washer is a good idea on the cam bolt, leave it off and use medium thread locker WHEN DONE WITH CAM DEGREEING.
Degreeing is a must with these engines, if I do one and it comes out right, I assume that I screwed up and check again.

 

[B RON CO]

Hi, I had the same issue with my Comp Cam a few years ago. I got my cam dialed in with the adjustable timing set from Vintage inline and with the help from the guys here, especially pmuller9. I was surprised that it was off by like 17*, and the "tech help" at Comp Cams couldn't explain anything, and didn't offer an adjustable crank sprocket. When I was getting the numbers so far off I thought that it had to be me. I was following the the way Echo does it on the video. Good luck

 

[alwill923]

I had the same problem with my 240 with a Schneider cam. Had to go one tooth off and offset keys to get it right.
YOU MUST DEGREE THE CAM!

 

[65MustangI6]

First of all, thanks for all the help. Before making any changes I decided to sleep on it and start this morning with a fresh set of eyes. Also, before adjusting the crankshaft sprocket and timing chain based on pmuller9's recommendation, I thought I would triple check myself to make sure I did not make an error.

As I was going through the exercise I remembered I had a new timing chain that came with my Comp Cams kit. I never used it as I always planned to use the double roller timing chain from Vintage Inlines. I went ahead and took off the double roller timing chain and installed the single roller. I bolted the degree wheel back to the crankshaft and started the degree process all over.

However, as I was finding TDC I noticed that my degree wheel turned slightly. I cranked the balancer bolt a bit more and the wheel could still turn. I don't think this was an issue before, but with all the cranking I did on the crankshaft, maybe it was an issue and I didn't even realize it. Nevertheless, I'm not going to take a chance and decided to buy a crankshaft socket. Does anyone have any recommendations? The only ones I can find are for a Ford V8.

Also, drag-200stang, all items you mentioned are good. Spacer is behind the dowel pin and bevel side towards the engine. Oil galley plug installed just above thrust plate. I will use blue locktite thread locker once I get this all figured out. Thanks for the input and troubleshooting checks.

 

[drag-200stang]

I am cheap. I mark the parts in a couple places with a fine marker then you can check if it has moved. I have been using a tiny bit of super glue to hold parts from moving wile machining, I found that no matter how secure, they seemed to move a tiny bit. Maybe clean and a smidge of super glue between the snout and the wheel, but do not overdo it and get a lot in the threads.
I now also use an adjustable beam head lamp to get light on the work. Getting old, no wait getting smarter.

 

[65MustangI6]

Thanks drag-200stang for the idea. I wasn't able to find a crankshaft socket that would fit snug on the snout, so I'm going to move forward with your idea.

Unfortunately, I'm back on the J.O.B. and won't be able to get back to the engine build until Saturday. Once I do, I'm going to re-degree the camshaft starting from scratch to see if I come up with the same numbers. If I do, I'll know I'm doing it correctly and the camshaft is 12 degrees off. I'll then move forward adjusting based on pmuller9's description and then hopefully wrap up the bottom end. I'll let you guys know what I find.

Thanks again for the help and I'll chat with you guys this weekend.

 

[thaedge]

Hello all, I guess it is unclear to me how to degree a cam with the stock timing gears and chain without the adjustable version....

 

[pmuller9]

Hello all, I guess it is unclear to me how to degree a cam with the stock timing gears and chain without the adjustable version....

When you install a new cam, you should always check the cam timing even if you have a stock timing gear set.
If the cam timing needs to be changed then you would need to get an adjustable timing gear set.

 

[clochard68]

I had the same issue with my camshaft, with the double roller timing chain installed dot to dot it was 8° off.
So I needed to use the whole range of the adjustability (+8°) ont hte timing chain set just to get the camshaft installed straight up.
It baffled me also that the tolerances are that high...

 

[78_200_C4]

Hello all, I guess it is unclear to me how to degree a cam with the stock timing gears and chain without the adjustable version....

How much will it matter anyway on a small Ford six?
How many RPM's will the HP-torque curves be moved up or down?
I would like to see some dyno tests.
I don't think Ford degreed the cams when assembling small Ford sixes,
Then again Ford didn't install aftermarket camshafts of questionable quality.
I am running a stock large log 256 Enginetech cam with a stock timing chain + sprockets.
I tried to install a 260 Comp Cam but my dial indicator showed the cam was junk with a base circle run out of .006" for about 30 degrees.

 

[pmuller9]

How much will it matter anyway on a small Ford six?
How many RPM's will the HP-torque curves be moved up or down?

If the cam is too advanced the engine will be prone to detonation and will require a higher octane fuel.
If the cam is too retarded the engine will lose off idle torque especially on a smaller displacement six.

 

[drag-200stang]

You degree the cam to make sure you or they did not screw screwed up, See it often, only way to know for sure.

 

[65MustangI6]

Good Afternoon,

So after taking everything apart and starting again, I've confirmed that I am indeed 12 degrees off. The second set of numbers I received put me at 93.5 ICL, while the first batch of numbers had me at 94.5. I'm figuring the 1% difference is due to measurement tolerance.

pmuller9, I've rotated the crankshaft sprocket to +8 and lined up the camshaft sprocket dot with the crankshaft sprocket tooth to the left of the +8. Please see picture. I want to confirm that I'm understanding your directions clearly.

If I've done this correctly, I should be able to re-degree the camshaft and get an ICL of 106+/- a degree or so, correct?

 

[pmuller9]

If I've done this correctly, I should be able to re-degree the camshaft and get an ICL of 106+/- a degree or so, correct?

That will be correct providing I did my calculations correctly.
Will be waiting for your results.

 

[65MustangI6]

Thanks pmuller9 for the help! And thanks drag-200stang for the superglue idea, it worked like a charm!

After making the changes I ended up with 61 degrees at .050 before top of lobe and 147 degrees at .050 after top of lobe for 208, divided by 2, gave me a 104 ICL. I then went through the Duration Method as you outlined above and got 1 degree BTDC and 30 degrees ABDC at .050. Based on the math that's 31 degrees plus 180 gives me a 211 duration at .050. Cam card has it at 212.

Question: If I moved the crankshaft sprocket to +6 and moved the camshaft sprocket dot so it lined up with one tooth to the left of the +6 on the crankshaft like you recommended, would that get me to the 107 ICL? (Currently 94 degrees @ TDC, +6 advanced would give me 88 degrees advanced, minus 19 retarded would get me to 107 ICL. I'm always trying to learn, so feel free to tell me if I'm not thinking correctly.)

I also checked intake and exhaust timing and would like your input. They don't match, which I get, but I would have expected that the numbers would have at least correlated. Meaning if cam card has 22 BTDC and close at 57 ABDC that would be 22+180+57=259. That the actual valve timing would equate to 259 as well (or close to it). The actual is 267.5 and 266.5.

Cam Card valve timing @ .006
Intake Open: 22 BTDC and close is 57 ABDC
Exhaust Open: 62 BBDC and close is 17 ATDC

Actual valve timing @ .006
Intake Open: 27.5 BTDC and close is 60 ABDC
Exhaust Open: 66.5 BBDC and close is 20 ATDC

Now that I'm close to wrapping up this phase, should I re-check camshaft endplay as a safety precaution before thread locking and torquing the camshaft sprocket bolt? My initial camshaft endplay was .0035, so I was good.

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[pmuller9]

Question: If I moved the crankshaft sprocket to +6 and moved the camshaft sprocket dot so it lined up with one tooth to the left of the +6 on the crankshaft like you recommended, would that get me to the 107 ICL? (Currently 94 degrees @ TDC, +6 advanced would give me 88 degrees advanced, minus 19 retarded would get me to 107 ICL. I'm always trying to learn, so feel free to tell me if I'm not thinking correctly.)

Yes, that is correct. If you move the sprocket to +6 and have the camshaft sprocket dot so it lines up with one tooth to the left of the +6 on the crankshaft, the intake lobe center should be at 107.

You should also check the exhaust lobe .050" duration timing after you have made this last change to +6
This will not only check the exhaust lobe timing, but you can also check the lobe separation angle.
If the intake lobe center is at 107 the exhaust lobe .050" should open at 39 degrees BBDC and close 7 degrees BTDC

Do not bother with the .006" cam timing