.070 overbore for 250

  • Thread starter Thread starter Anonymous
  • Start date Start date
A

Anonymous

Guest
I am interested in knowing if a .070 overbore to a 250 block is practical? I am planning my next 250 an have read AMC 258 pistons will fit. My thoughts for the life of the engine is 100k miles. Any help would be great.
Thanks,
Ken
 
The 250 built in Jack Cliffords shop years ago that I found "mothballed" - that is stored new but never fired until this summer has the 258 Pistons with a .070 overbore. Runs great with no problems after @ 1000 miles. Has incredible torque winding out to 5K conservatively. I find no problems with wide changes of spark advance. I run 92 Octane for the 10:1 CR but have experienced no detonation or pinging . It has a 272 Cam . I run an aftermarket aluminum radiator with electric fan.

ENGINERADFROMFRTRT.jpg

Jack Clifford, legendary six cylinder racer, record holder and engine builder's shop, performance built Ford 250 six engine- 10:1 Pistons, Clifford rods, Clifford 272H Cam, line bored & balanced bottom end, Cloyes timing set, Melling pump, Fisher balancer, 1.88 int. valves, Ported and relieved, Offy 3X1 w/3 Holleys, Re-curved distrib., the works, a few mysteries...


Powerband
 
If its an early Clifford bore-out on a pristine 250, and the machinist knew what he was doing, you could problably get away with it. The guys at Clifford have possibly forgotten more about US I-6'S than most of us would ever learn.


Any one else, and I'd say heck no, don't do it.

Any engine made in Windsor Ontario after 1962 is thinwall, 250 thou max jacket thickness. Just like every 221/260/289/302/351 and 240/300 and 200, it will have a 40 thou maximum, and 30 thou to be safe limit. I'd never do it.

You can find pristine Windsor castings which will go well over the recomended 40 thou maximum limit, but any thinwall engine has only about 120 to 180 thou of cylionder wall thickness when made, and less than 90 to 150 thou is common before a conservative 30 thou overbore. The casting around the machined cylinder is pitted sand, and over the years, the air in water forms a 20 to 30 thou scale which comes loose if treated with mutraic acid. This will hurt cylinder wall strength. According to most reputable engine builders (the late Austrlian engine designer Phil Irving, the late Brad Girdwood from Brads Speed Shop in Australia, and Sam Blumstien from Chevy Offroad & Marine Engines in Australia), an iron cylinder with 11:1 compression and about 1.5 hp per cube, will need 180 thou of wall thickness at the thrust surfaces. The only thinwall engine like that is a Chevy Small block. Fords engines are far worse than that. Nothing was done untill 1985, when Ford started having issues with there Windsor (Canadian), Lima (Mexican) and Cleveland (American) made engines. Since then, Ford has added more metal in every block, and looked at each block as a potential candate for remaching like Chevy has on every engine made since 1955. As a result, Chevy is brand A every time becasue of its cylinderwall thickness.

The upshot of all this? You could do over 250 hp with a 30 thou over 250 six with 120 thou wall thickness. I doubt you'd get any more than about 90 thou wall thickness with a 70 thou over 250, and its likely to be a risk at some stage unless someone has gone to a lot of trouble finding a very good casting.


The evidence from Does10's and some other 200 builders in the USA has said that 30 thou is perfectly safe, 100% of the time, but that 40 thou starts to get risky. The engine machinist can feel the degree of resistance when the engine is being rebored, and past 30 thou, the color of the iron casting often changes. The sand based cores can shift in thinwall blocks. It can be perfect or it can be very great, and cause even a 40 thou over engine to risk spitting No 1 cylinder under just normal driving conditions. Additionallly, if its from a frosty or snow laden state, it can be suffering from hairline cracks even if its stock and cared for for the last 30 years.


I've found that some Aussie 200 to 250 blocks can take huge overbores, because the blocks were made without much regard to cost on slow moving lines of less than 60 000 units a year, not 200 000 plus a year like US 250's. Even then, a 70 thou overbore would only be done if there was no other option, and you had a spare block. All Ford I6's and V8's don't have siamesed cylinders unless its a special SVO or Lima OHC block. The bore spacing is 4.08", the std bore 3.68, so the cylinders are very close together. There is no space for more than 200 thou of metal between each cylinder even if they were touching. They don't touch, they are sand cast apprat from each other in an eggshell section. So a 70 thou overbore on a perfect cylinder block like that would only have less than 165 thou maximum wall thickness on its date of birth, and less than about 135 thou 30 years on if its water wasn't changed regularly.



WARNING. Saving Iron for Environmental Reasons Rant follows:-


That's why I favour sleaving any Windsor I6 block for a common and cheap modern piston and rod assembly from a later model Ford V6 or I6 or Chevy V8. Any 250 engine, especially the US 260, is an investment, and I can't think of a better way to eliminate the problems with thinwall cylinders than by using a 2.9 V6 3.66" piston on reamed out 5.88" forged steel rods and Diesel Ford 2.3 Transit engine liners which you can make locally for very little money. They are something like 3.78" in outside diameter, 93 mm internal, and cope with 21:1 compression ratios.

The other option is using 4.8 "Generation 4" pistons by Zoliner. Mate this with the GM liner, and its 6.1" conrod.

There is also the prospect of using the latest 1.21" tall 3.7" daimeter 5.0 Modular SVO OHC piston, which is to be used in the comming 6.0 or 6.2 liter Modular V8 truck engines. You get the engine fully relinered to 3.88", and using a 90 thou thick liner should allow the 5.4 V8 conrods and the 5.0 modular piston to be.


These pistons have had millions spent on them by Ford and GM. Back in the late 90's, Ford and Chev had issues with warranties on cold piston slap in service. So they worked very hard with Zolliner to elimate it. Along with detonation reistant conrods and the brillant work on piston ring clearances, there isn't a better cast alloy piston around. It would be silly not to work out a price on doing an linered up 250 engine block, and eliminate the prospect of ever having to do an engine rebuild again. Linered-up engines are able to resist detonation better, and if the liner is thicker, they are stronger than a stock Ford cylinder wall.

Talk it over with your machinist.
 
xctasy":c8u2sd66 said:
WARNING. Saving Iron for Environmental Reasons Rant follows:-


That's why I favour sleaving any Windsor I6 block for a common and cheap modern piston and rod assembly from a later model Ford V6 or I6 or Chevy V8. Any 250 engine, especially the US 260, is an investment, and I can't think of a better way to eliminate the problems with thinwall cylinders than by using a 2.9 V6 3.66" piston on reamed out 5.88" forged steel rods and Diesel Ford 2.3 Transit engine liners which you can make locally for very little money. They are something like 3.78" in outside diameter, 93 mm internal, and cope with 21:1 compression ratios.

The other option is using 4.8 "Generation 4" pistons by Zoliner. Mate this with the GM liner, and its 6.1" conrod.

There is also the prospect of using the latest 1.21" tall 3.7" daimeter 5.0 Modular SVO OHC piston, which is to be used in the comming 6.0 or 6.2 liter Modular V8 truck engines. You get the engine fully relinered to 3.88", and using a 90 thou thick liner should allow the 5.4 V8 conrods and the 5.0 modular piston to be.


These pistons have had millions spent on them by Ford and GM. Back in the late 90's, Ford and Chev had issues with warranties on cold piston slap in service. So they worked very hard with Zolliner to elimate it. Along with detonation reistant conrods and the brillant work on piston ring clearances, there isn't a better cast alloy piston around. It would be silly not to work out a price on doing an linered up 250 engine block, and eliminate the prospect of ever having to do an engine rebuild again. Linered-up engines are able to resist detonation better, and if the liner is thicker, they are stronger than a stock Ford cylinder wall.

Talk it over with your machinist.

I'm in the process of building a 200 right now for my grandpa's 'stang... and I think I'm gonna run this by him. We just got it back from the machinist with all of our options, this not being one of them. Kind of excited to give this a shot!
 
Ford says you can bore them .080 over and you can buy replacement pistons for an .080 overbore so I dont see a problem with it myself.

My 200 was bored .060 over 6 years ago and has been beat to death and still runs good with no problems :wink:

Rule of thumb is to do the minumum overbore needed unless you are doing somthing custom like youre trying to do.

I'd ask youre machinist what he thinks?

Later,

Doug
 
Umm, ... I'm not theorizin' the .070 overbore - I was saying the .070 - 258 Pistons work great and maybe simple setup option.

Powerband .
 
Howdy Ken and All:

I've been looking very hard at the .070" over AMC pistons in a 250. They solve several problems; reduce deck height, control CR and are relatively cheap and easily available.

Overboring a 250 this much does cause me concern. I would bet that Jack Clifford used a torque plate to do the final hone to size on PB's block. I wonder how many engines were done like this, and how long they lasted. PB may be our tester. There is nothing like an idea that someone is already successfully doing.

If I were going to go this route I'd check the block over very carefully for core shift during casting. This is easiest to do with the block bare. You can get a good look at the seam through the water pump hole. If the seam is off-set at all it is an indication that one side of the bores will be thicker and the other thinner- not good for this application. Sonic testing for thickness is another option.

If the block appeared to be viable I would try desperately to use a torque plate, or some substitute, to do the final hone-to-fit. This is because the thinner cylinder walls would be more prone to distortion in the torqueing process. Add to that the neccesity to do some minimal decking, which will weaken the top mating surface of the block, even if only slightly. I'd also strongly consider going to studs to mount the head rather than head bolts. With only 4 polts per cylinder any help is good. I'd keep the CR to 10:1 or less. A longer than stock duration cam would help to lessen cylinder pressures.

This may be heresy to some, but I'd stick with cast pistons for a tighter initial fit and less slop on cold starts and warm ups. This combo may make for a good NA street engine and cruiser, with occasional bursts of spirited driving, but I don't think I'd go this way for a "Balls-to-the-Walls" race engine.

That's my two cents, for what it's worth.

Adios, David
 
The torque plate, I would think is a necessity. The blocks have been through endless heat cycles, so they should be seasoned.
The reason I pulled the 258 piston out of the air is because it's the only one mensioned. Well, theres the 255 piston also. Now, I'm playing with a 250 block, I have read the list of pistons that fit a 200, what other piston is a canadate for this block?
Also, will a 6.00 cheby rod fit the crank journal?
Thanks,
Ken
 
khughesprime":32tdvcwl said:
powerband - How did you end up breaking in the engine?

Thanks for the interest:

For initial startup, I used Rotella straight 30 with the bottle of Cliffords'"Break In Fluid". I had ignition trouble which turned out to be a defective GM HEI module and stuck in a "known good" points dizzy. I started the engine with a "known good" 2bbl in the center with the front and rear carbs blocked off. I had immediate overheating problems and needed to flood the radiator with a hose to complete the 20 minute cam break-in. After putting in an Aluminum crossflow radiator, I finally got to drive the beast. It runs awesome with a torque and power band usable from 1K RPM up. After @ 100 miles I dumped the oil and have been using Rotella 15/40 for @ 1000 miles. I'm still working out a few of the bugs in the "bolt-on" parts (ign./carb/exh) but I can only credit the Jack Clifford shop with the quality of work evidenced and cool mysteries in this engine.


250BREAKINFLUIDWEB.jpg


ENGINERADFROMFRTRT.jpg


Powerband 8)
 
Howdy back Ken and All:

There are two other options to consider to solve the huge 250 deck height problem. they are;
1. Use a longer 300 Ford six rod with the Keith Black 305 pistons with a 1.26" deck height. This combo has the advantage of reducing the deck height .090" and giving a slightly better rod/stroke ratio.
Rod Length & weight;
250 =5.88" 592 grams
300 =6.21" ??? grams
Difference = .330" longer

Rod Length to Stroke ratio;
250 = 5.88" : 3.91"= 1.5:1
300 = 6.21" : 3.91"= 1.58:1

Deck the top of the block to achieve zero deck height. Use a FoMoCo composite head gasket (NOS if you can find one) with a compressed thickness of .037". I'm hoping Mike will announce the Cortico .038" gaskets for 200/250 soon.

Use with a Chevy 305 Keith Black (KB 153) piston in a standard bore of 3.736" with a 1.26" pin height. These pistons would require an overbore of .056". Plans would include milling a recess into the piston top which mirrors the combustion chambers. The goals will be to create a higher quench-to-bore ratio, lower CR, lighten the piston, reduce knock tendency, and maximize combustion efficiency.

The advantages of using the 300 rods are- longer, for a slightly improved rod-to-stroke ratio, likely tougher than 250 rods. The 300 are designed for higher load truck application and have the same rod and main journal dimensions as a 250 I think.

The only extra machining would be to rebush the small ends to accommodate the larger Chevy .9273" wrist pin. The 300 rods small end measures .9122".

2. Use longer 1986-’90 Taurus & 1986 Sable 2.5 HSC rods with the flattop HSC or OEM dished replacement pistons. This has the advantage of reducing the deck height .110" and giving a slightly better rod/stroke ratio.
Rod Length & weight;
250 =5.88" 592 grams
2.5 HSC =5.99" ??? grams
Difference = .110" taller

Rod Length to Stroke ratio;
250 = 5.88" : 3.91"= 1.5:1
2.5 HSC = 5.99" : 3.91"= 1.5319:1

Deck the top of the block to achieve zero deck height. Use the thinnest composite head gasket available to optimize the quench effect.

Use with an HSC flattop piston, with plans to mill a "D" shaped dish into the top. The goals will be to create a higher quench-to-bore ratio, lower CR, lighten the piston, reduce knock tendency, and maximize combustion efficiency. The stock replacement large dish Calif Emmissions pistons would work too. Standard overbore sizes would apply to both of these pistons.

The advantages of using the 4-cyl rods are- longer, for a slightly improved rod-to-stroke ratio, tougher than I6 gear. The four cylinders vibrate much more, rev to a much higher RPM, produce more power per cylinder, carry more load per cylinder than a six, and suffer more detonation than a I6 was ever designed for.

These combinations will have a more ideal deck clearance, likely have a lighter reciprocating weight, and be able to tolerate CR in the 9.5:1 range, at sea level, with 91 octane gas.

Plans are to use ARP rod bolts, polish the rod beams, balance the whole rotating assembly, and polish the piston tops and the chambers.

In any case, mill the head only enough to ensure it's flat. It is critical to measure all volumes to verify CR. Reshaping the combustion chambers to reduce CR, unshroud the intake valves and match chamber volumes may be necessary.

A couple more options to consider.

Adios, David
 
Thanks powerband !
I remember reading the thread you posted on what to do and there of course were a billion diff. suggestions. Maybe one day you can share with us the mysteries after you figure it all out and we will benefit from not having some of Clifford's knowledge not go forever forgotten...
 
Back
Top