250 in 64 falcon?

cisco170

Well-known member
hello going for the big one, 1976, 250 came with c4 transmission and lots of smog stuff,? before i try the install, will try and myself right. Going in to the 64 falcon, Will i be using the late model c4 trans cross member mount? motor mounts? will use no fan,going electric fan, Will the carb that it came with, work after i remove all the smog stuff.? will the timing change after smog removal parts? 8) thank you for help and all replies.
 
cisco170":72jlvllg said:
hello going for the big one, 1976, 250 came with c4 transmission and lots of smog stuff,? before i try the install, will try and myself right. Going in to the 64 falcon, Will i be using the late model c4 trans cross member mount? motor mounts? will use no fan,going electric fan, Will the carb that it came with, work after i remove all the smog stuff.? will the timing change after smog removal parts? 8) thank you for help and all replies.

The 250 is not quite a bolt-in swap in early cars. You mentioned the fan problem and the tranny cross member difference. But if you are somewhat resourceful, a little effort and the 250 will be an excellent upgrade and enable the early car to easily cruise with the modern speed patterns. You may have a real sporty '64 with typical OEM six - 3.50 rear and 1:1 C4 gears and torquey 250... vrooom.

The '76 250 should easily convert (without smog...), the carb may work if it's a YFA, Timing with the with DS II not emission related,

...

I run a 250 in a '61 2 door and it is more than adequate to cruise interstate speeds with an OD (T5) tranny in the light '61 early car.





Heve Fun
 
I'm partial to 4.1's, its the best enginew round town, and the best cruiser ever. Although they are certainly not perfect. They have typical big Cleveland engine problems of extra weight (460 pounds dressed without air con and power steering vs 385 pound max for 3.3) but then still have thinwall related bore constraints

A few cuts, and it'll fit, piece of cake

Regards the best combination, fix the the worst thing first. The bug bear is the 103 thou piston shortfall, which is only fixable by a block deck (bad idea, as on 250 engines, it often causes cracks to apear around the front cylinder head to block bolt holes, causing hairline cracks in no 1 cylinder commonly), or a set of forged EL2/AU/BA/BF/FG Falcon OHC six rods, or 2.5 HSC Taurus or Topaz. They are 6.06" and 6.00" centre to centre respectively, and fix the shortfall, but you then have to use a thick composite head gasket which doesn't ledge over the block and a decked aftermarket piston...the best is the 1.5" deck 255 Ford V8 replacement as its about 8cc. If you can machine them down to 1.454- 1.460", you'll have about the best small six combo on the planet. The old 229/305 Chev TRW or Keith Black forged piston is 12cc, and can be decked from 1.536 down to 1.454 with ease, but the wrist pins then need to be taken out 16 thou to 0.927". And it needs a 56 thou overbore to fit a 250 block, 3.736 vs 3.680". Each option has its pro's and cons, but the piston shortfall at top dead centre is a huge power looser, more than 10% due to an inability to carry a high compression ratio. Just dropping a 48 cc head on a stock 250 which had 59 to 62 cc head doesn't yield any more power, as it tries to detonate early due to the heated anular edge.

The second problem with all Cleveland Ohio made Ford sixes, is that the cylinder walls are too thin for real overbores, making high performance mods hard work. Often, people, like powerband and others, have had plenty of nice years running a good old Jeep 258 pistons (58 thou over size), but most times a 250 block was as thin as 120 thou at the thrust faces when cast, and with age, it can drop to 90 thou before you give them an overbore. So best options in my book are making sure its not got winter cracks if its from a cold zone in the US, and if its free from cracks, then concentrate on getting the compression up to 9.5:1 next engine rebuild.

As things stand now, your constrained by a carb which is fine for a 99 hp net low compression plodder. If you remove EGR, AIR, and the other 10 integrated emmissions devices you won't be any further ahead, but it'll probably look cleaner in a 64 engine bay.

Given that internal mods aren't on your radar yet, my pick is the direct mount conversion, and the Holley 350 cfm carb. Jetting is best kept down to 62-64 jets, with 6.5 power valve, and winding a silver 10 amp fuse through both the power valve channel restrictions. (350 Holleys are set up for big V8's, and the whole basic jetting, including all the hard fuel and air corrector channels, are sized for 351/352 to 390, and a six with a 350 Holley always runs richer than it would if Holley had a calibration for a 2 bbl 250).

Hooker dual out headers are best, and if you are using a high mount right hand air con unit (like Sanden or its variants), then you might need to shift the a/c compressor out a 1/4 to 1/2" to clear the larger header tubes. If its low mount, then you should be okay.

Trans is easy...wide ratio RUC/SROD or any wide or close Ford v8 Toploader except the Liberty 429, or the SR from X-shell Granda/Fox Body 3.3 stick shifts. Close ratios (2.32, 1.69, 1.29, 1:1) are the set up if you have 3.5:1 gears...the 250 is a real torque monster and laps up high gearing like a Clydesdale.

Best diff ratio is 3.20 to 3.25:1, best gearing 2.78, 1.86, 1.36, 1:1. That always works well with a 2 barrel 250, with only a marginal loss in economy. Close to it is the RUC or SROD, which were 3speed plus overdrive boxes with 2.95, 1.69, 1.29, 0.79, I think. That works real well with 3.20 to 3.50 diff ratios.

If you want an auto, follow Jacs Crossflow Chronicals, and try an 89-92 AOD from a truck 5.0 LTD...with the factory Mustang 5.0 HO 2350 rpm stall converter and 3.5 or even 4.0 gears, a 4.9 164 teeth neutral balance flexplate, and forget the fact that its 165 pounds, or 65 pounds heavier than a C4. It's a great box when the diff ratios are numerically high, and all you have to do is make sure there is 1/8 inch slack at idle and 1.75" of total pullout on the throttle cable at wide open throttle with the engine having just been run but turned off. Stock stall is the standard Ford 1650 rpm stall, and it kills most modifed engines with diff ratios in the 2.79/2.83/3.00/3.20/3.25 range. To make an AOD work,it needs a 3.45:1 down to 4.11 diff to cruise nicely on locked up overdrive top.

65 extra pounds in a gearbox, 75 or more in the engine, a better 8" diff, air con, power steering, and it all adds up to 25% more capacity, but 6 or 7% more weight. People then look at air con because a 4.1 Falcon is such a cruisy car, and power steering, because its a mutha to steer with all that extra weight up front. A stock 250 never, ever got 25% more power than the same year 200 due to the carb, log head and awfull piston shortfall, so mostly,without modifaction, a 250 is 25% more torquey down low from idle to about 3500 rpm, and then it only makes 6 to 7% more power, just enough to keep up with a 6 to 7% weight increase. If you check any drive report, a manual 4 speed 200 will beat most loaded auto 250's, all else being equal.
 
Thanks, nice synopsis...
Now I see why the 200 is the I6 for you guys.
:thumbup:

"...so mostly,without modification, a 250 is 25% more torquey down low from idle to about 3500 rpm..."
Still appears to be a good motor for the EB? I want tq at 1000 - 2500 rpm, keep the tires in contact w/the dirt...

(Just a comment, let's not 'jack the thread)
:nono:
 
If the 200 is king , you might want to Ask does 10's why he runs a 250 instead , of a 200 , Ive bumped heads with the 200 vs 250 , thing and sorry , the 200 is the best swap if you don't want to change anything , but 50 cubes cant be ignored , and the Transmission availability is a BIG Plus ,Automatics AND stick , I junked all my small 6 stuff that wouldn't work on a 250 , show me another log engine that runs low 14's in 95 degree air
 
well, remember the context was with the piston shortfall, carb, and log head restricting full performance gains, it wasn't a true cube to cube comparison. 2V conversions, dual or tri power mods, or at the best (IMHO), the CI AL head with SEFI would change the conversation a lot.

I'd also guess the 250 would see larger performance gains than the 200 when boosted, and see more of those 50 extra in performance.

I think the OP was looking at a 200 stock vs 250 stock comparison, in which i would have to agree with Xctasy. But i also have a 250 in the shop that's going to get the AL head, adjustable roller fulcrum rockers, raised piston height, and short term dual progressive two barrels.
 
Mine is NOT boosted , the lack of quench is an easy fix, take a mustang with a 200 ( all stock ) , run it against a 250 equipped mustang (all stock ) , the 250 will run all over it , You don't need to twist a 250 , I ran 14.39 shifted at 5200 and never saw 5000 at the traps ( 4700 actually ) , build the engine ( along with the rest of the car NOT just the engine ) and it will perform better than you might think, sorry 50 cubes in a small motor is VERY tough to make up
 
cisco170- That 250/auto sounds like a good plan. They have good torque down low- with an auto trans should be a nice drive. That aod suggestion might be something I would look at as the low end torque and od should make comfortable highway driving if you go on long drives.

xctasy- Torque monster is a good description. Enjoyed reading your post, very informative and I am also a 250 fan.
 
Wether you're buiding a fire breather or just swapping in an available used 250 setup, it's over 10 years newer and a little more heavy duty than the earlier drivetrain. The early cars had specific-to-six tranny, rears and suspension components. Later 'Stang , Mav/Com and Granada's standardized drivetrain with V8's... and 250's. THe 250 uses all typical 289/5.0 Flywheel/Flex-Conv/Clutch/Bellhouse/TO/Tranny/Mounts and Adaptors which makes for wide options. I used OEM Maverick 3-OTT toploader/ 250 with OEM '61 column shift. There's an availble C4 rear tranny mount for the '64 for @ $100.



HAve Fun
 
1976, 250 came with c4 transmission and lots of smog stuff,? before i try the install... Going in to the 64 falcon, Will i be using the late model c4 trans cross member mount? motor mounts? will use no fan,going electric fan, Will the carb that it came with, work after i remove all the smog stuff.? will the timing change after smog removal parts?

Sounds like a carb change is in order (can keep the dizzy - some like the DSII upgrade)
not sure bout the X-member but the C4 'robs' less power than most autos
I think the Handbook mentioned/has motor mount & tower ideas (U seen mine)
not sure bout timing changes...
 
:beer: Hi FSD.The more that I read in this thread the more that I think about a couple of sayings from the "Way Back Machine".
1 There is no replacement for displacement.
2 The only replacement for cubic inches,is cubic dollars.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo
 
That's the point, if your gonna bake...

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amen?
 
A men !!! (as they add in response @ my church)
 
Ak Miller stated in the article, " Six-Cylinder Maverick Hop-Up", his 200 with 3 one barrels and a header and a 3 speed manual equaled a bone stock 250 with a 4 speed in the quarter mile. Both running 17.2's. Torque is king!!!!!!!!! (Just my opinion).
Ken
 
don't No bout this forum but FTE's got em pullin/haulin 50,000# and/or the opposite hopped up w/superchargers/turbos @ the track n everything. I'd just like to put 1 w/the efi n heavy duty ex manifold in the bronk. just don't have the skill/time/$/equipment to move the fire wall or radiator.
 
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