A few small issues before the first drive

[170-3tree]

Hey all,

As some may know I have recently got my new 200 running (kinda) with the aluminium head on it. She sounds nice, but I'm running into a few smaller issues before I'm ready to pull her out of the garage and go for a drive.
Specs(in case it helps anyone help me):
200, bored .030 over
274/274 112* cam advanced 4* (degreeed)
aluminium head, stock out of the box
autolite 2100 1.08 245cfm with #46 jet(from rebuilder)

First, the Stainless steel headers I got from Mike were a bit of a pain to get set up, and I'm still looking at a leak or two from the header to the extensions a those flanges. Unless anyone has a better Idea, I had planned to use a layer of the copper seal used on exhausts in between each gasket and the flanges. I probably should have done something like this to begin with, but it all went together in my dad's free time (I was at work).

Second, I am not 100% sure on this, but It seems that I am having a bit of a flooding problem and maybe a small vaccum leak. the carb was installed with one turn out on each of the a/f idle screws. I turned them in another 1/8th-1/4 turn and it seemed to smooth out a bit, but when I used a bit of carb cleaner at the base of the carb and the adapter, it didn't rev up, but pretty much sputtered out and died quietly. I'm assuming that this means that it is letting some in, but way too rich?
On another run it gave up about two or three decent backfires out the exhaust right before it decided not to run another stroke. (kinda pointing this to richness as well or timing)
Either way, I'm gonna get a spare gasket out for the carb and put a small film of rtv under the adapter to the manifold. JUST to be safe.
Also, I'm going to go ahead and pull the top off the carb and check the float level, especially since the vent hole at the top of the bowl had a bit of fuel surrounding it after running at lower speeds.

as far as basic tuning, considering a slightly lopeier cam, I plan to set the idle around 700 to start and timing will probably be put in the 6-10 range at first.

If anyone can point me in better directions or anything it would help a ton, the town car show is this weekend and I really wanna cruise with them on sunday so I'm trying not to do too much rush and get ahead of myself.

Gerald

 

[bubba22349]

Your plan is sound yes find the vacuum leak and fix it except forget the RTV if you feel you need a sealer use something that is fuel resistant (RTV isn't) try Permatex or another gasket sealer like it. Yes on recheck of fuel level too. Try timing at 10 to 12, 12 to 14 will probably be very close. You could also try re tightening all your header bolts with the engine warmed up good same with carb mounts and intake recheck the torque. Good luck

 

[170-3tree]

I suppose something fuel resistant would be better. I was told to use it on the adapter before, but it wasn't a concern at the time.
I'm not sure how I should check the float level on these, I will search the forum if nothing turns up here, or the specs for that matter.

another note if it adds to or disputes my direction, the rpms were never steady when trying to idle. I attribute this to the cam, but did get it into a 50rpm balpark and steady.

bubba, are you advising against using the copper seal on those flanges? I had planned on going through the entire exhaust after a bit of a drive to make sure it was all good still. I dread pulling the intake, but I will need to retorque the header. I will probably do that around the timme I chase through the head bolts agian to ensure they are still proper.
I figure the carb gasket got soaked from flooding at one point so I have a spare that I will use.

Now that I look at it, I'm gonna have to get the best of 2bbl on this head as there is barely an inch free in either direction to get a 4bbl to work. Until I can get a small footprint 4bbl.

thank you

Gerald

 

[bubba22349]

are you advising against using the copper seal on those flanges?

Gerald, No the copper coat is very good for exhaust and intake I have used it often. Or also the high temp RTV (orange) can be used for exhaust. Did you use a stud at each end of head even if just for temp it would hold the exhaust and intake gasket in position during assembly? May not be any need to pull the intake try spraying around ports to check for leaks if non you good to go or you can also just retorque them (warmed up) sometimes gasket compress plus the heat cycles. You can also retorque the header too with intake in place. On your carb these links should give you the info to do float setting. Good luck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrgidsxaDeA

http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_li ... 0_carb.pdf

 

[170-3tree]

Okay I will use that.

I did not have a gasket on the intake, but used a thin coat of rtv to seal it to the head good. The header was installed with the gasket the way you describe while the head was off, it made it a lot easier.

When I installed the exhaust on the car, along with the extension tubes from the headers, it was all put together loosely to get alignments figured out. One of the extension tubes was a bit of a pain when I went after it to tighten it up so I think that is where this problem started. Had it been a small leak I would just use the attempt to retighten method to finish sealing her up, but I can tell it is no small leak. Honestly I really wish the flanges were of the three bolt variety for better pressure placement. But oh well obviously these will work with some fidgeting.

I am goin to fix all the obvious issues, such as vacuum leaks and exhaust, then move onto the carb adjustments that can be made starting with the float if it continues to be an issue.

Thanks
Gerald

Edit. If I can't get her out for the cruise tomorrow because of the issues, I did get the belair running nicely so I will get that out instead.

 

[bubba22349]

I did not have a gasket on the intake, but used a thin coat of rtv to seal it to the head good.

Personally I would want use an intake gasket inside of just the RTV. That may be were some of the vacuum leaks are like at the bottom of intake were you might not see them.

When I installed the exhaust on the car, along with the extension tubes from the headers, it was all put together loosely to get alignments figured out. One of the extension tubes was a bit of a pain when I went after it to tighten it up so I think that is where this problem started. Had it been a small leak I would just use the attempt to retighten method to finish sealing her up, but I can tell it is no small leak. Honestly I really wish the flanges were of the three bolt variety for better pressure placement. But oh well obviously these will work with some fidgeting.

You might try loosening up that header connection and moving the collector connection and pipes around to see if you can get a better fit maybe use some of the Orange RTV there too. I can tell you from experience that the 3 and 4 bolt collectors leak often and need some finesse. Good luck hope you make it to the show.

 

[170-3tree]

Where might one aquire a suitable gasket for the intake? I didn't have one supplied and several people I talked to were very sure that RTV would work well if not better. I plan on scraping it off and replacing with the orange regardless just in case some of the flooding ate a hole through or something.

That was going to be my first try to get the exhaust to seal up before removing the section to apply the RTV.

Thank you.

 

[bubba22349]

I would think that CI should have intake gaskets or you might try asking at the bigger parts house for an Aussie 200 / 250 intake gasket maybe at NAPA or some of the Mustang shops too if there is one close to you. You could probably make one with some gasket paper if you had too. The RTV can work too and might be your best way right now with so little time.

 

[xctasy]

Real easy

Its the same kind of good, thick paper spec as the 1969-1974 Pinto 2000 OHC engine; gasket paper cut to suit with 120 thou greater diameter for the ports will do the same job. Some other engines in the Ford empire can be treated the same. I think the 1975- 1993 2300 Lima OHC is the same, you can use firm, thick gasket paper, and it will last if the intake ports don't see any of the paper in the annular area.

If requested, Australia's Automotive Components Limited (ACL) do make a composite one for the 250 2v,

It's HA294, found on ACL's website at http://qiklink.acl.co.nz/Modules/Catalo ... listtype=0

http://qiklink.acl.co.nz/Modules/Catalo ... 6&p=IT7668




And the gasket templates to scale up and then run through a photocopier



but the Classic Inline Alloy Head has special gasflowed ports of a different shape which means an ACL gasket will have to be changed. You can use the ACL one, but you'll have to check the annular junction so the bigger and offset 250 2v gasket won't obstruct the Classic Inline intake ports.

See viewtopic.php?f=3&t=63332&start=0

Hi Guys,
A few yrs ago I had a prob with the std paper gaskets being sucked into the head. Had the manifold machined but the prob persisted so I had ACL make some custom for me. They were metal base with a "special" rubber type coating. I've never used any type of sealant and could re-use every 1 of them, to this day, if I wanted. They show very little, if any, signs of use or wear. I was actually thinking about ordering some more for my shelf only last week.

Not including the programming charge (it was a 1 off apparently) they worked out to $9.50 ea (2 req, 3 + 3) but that was mid 2005, so obviously subject to change.
Let me know if you are interested,
Big numbers not necessary, I only got a small run done to try.
I can probably post a used 1 if anyone wants to have a look.

I'm in no great hurry, I've got some, but I'll place the order depending on interest & urgency.

AND

Hey guys I have been buying 2V intake manifold gaskets from Auto1 (A1) for the last couple of years. Price has varied but 30/32$ is the current running costs.

Like the photo copy idea never thought of that one surprised the gasket material runs through the printer

 

[170-3tree]

I have some of that paper from doing the adapter gasket. we rechecked the vacuum with the carb cleaner and found nothing. I think we just over saturated that gasket I made. I cut a new one, put it in and pretty lightly misted it it once to check and nothing. So I assume the leak is fixed there. It idles a bit smoother, but we are still having flooding issues. If it turns out that the intake is still a source of vacuum leaks, then I will use some gasket paper to make a decent gasket for it.

To give insight into the issues, when we took the carb off there was a pool of fuel in the plenum portion of the intake from the last idle session it was put on. so the next step is float level. Since I didn't have the gauge for the level, I just got a carb kit, and since it was "professionally" rebuilt when I bought it from an ebay vendor, I decided we should just go through it with new gasketry and such to be on the safe side. Especially since the level above the venturis was getting soaked with fuel. as in above the main jet body just under the choke plate.
Found a few interesting things in there. First, the spring in the power valve was in upside down, essentially covering the red valve entirely rather than sitting around it.
Second, the fuel inlet system seems to be fixed rather than two pieces like most I've dealt with in the autolite aresenal.
Third, There are no markings on the jets at all. The seller said they were of the #46 size, but now I have no clue if they really are so I will be buying jets in various sizes to do tuning even sooner.
We inspected for cracks and such and are now going to blow some carb cleaner through the ports to ensure no varnish formed while we were building the second engine.

If there is anything else I should check for while I have it apart, that might help us out, I will definitely check if someone says so.

OH yeah, I was wondering what the magic float level was? My chilton has like, five different settings for this and I don't know which to choose for these engines.

 

[bubba22349]

It depends on a number of things like fuel pressure and engine size. You might start out with the lowest Float settings than you can always rise it if you need more volume later.

 

[170-3tree]

Awesome. I just wanted to be sure with the different orientation on these versus the bent engines.

 

[170-3tree]

Thought I'd update my progress here.

We got the leak with the exhaust fixed up by loosening everything and wiggling around a bit.

The carb is rebuilt with the everything set and 7/16" float.
Got her started up yesterday and it sounds so much better and is running so much more consistantly, but still having some issues that I think are carb and ignition related. The inductive timing light I bought will not pick up a few of the wires that I've tried very consistantly. While a few do.

The main issue right now is that set at idle the rpms waive a bit, like 300-400 rpm inconsistancy. it will run fine and steading for a moment then practically fall out, then go way high before returrning to steady and doing over again until it dies falling out again.

After testing several parts of the ignition system we found that using a spare plug, all would give a decent spart (the test plug is rather old and from a chrysler product, but it does what it needs) but using the plugs in there, some would not. So new plugs will be purchased tomorrow and then a test to see what difference that makes us.

I am definitely taking my time with this because I want to do everything right and not miss a beat. I'm trying so hard to not let my excitement botch this up and so far I'm pretty proud of that.

Thanks all for all of your help. As always, if you have anything else i should peer into just say so and I surely will even if I have already.

 

[bubba22349]

The main issue right now is that set at idle the rpms waive a bit, like 300-400 rpm inconsistancy. it will run fine and steading for a moment then practically fall out, then go way high before returrning to steady and doing over again until it dies falling out again.

This is a sign of a vacuum leak or leaks. One area offen over looked is the carbs throttle shaft IE on well used carb the shaft or carb body can have enough wear in them that they leak vacuum.

 

[170-3tree]

I'm back again. I got her out and drove her around a bit, had a bit of hesitation off idle and got pretty hot. I Swear it sounds like a vacuum leak in there, but I cannot track it down for the life of me. I used carb cleaner in areas I should, tightened everything down again both hot and cold to be safe. Put in an intake gasket with better fuel resistant gasket maker. checked the throttle shaft, no play. PCV valve isn't as snug as I like, but messing with it did literally nothing to the idle.

Now my last guess is that It's just the cam and the mild lope causing slight surges at idle. Also It dies after a moderate acceleration when you press in the clutch. I am tuning it constantly making a bit of progress, I suppose I just need to stick with it and eventually good will come for me.
Right now Timing is set at 8btdc, and I put a 52 jets in, which helped the cooling situation, but is causing stutters in low speed acceleration. Still need to try playing with it with the new jets, that just happened today since they got here yesterday.

Other than all that, I love driving it so much more now. I can spin the tires loose almost anywhere below 30mph with a bit of work. Not on purpose actually. I am going to pick up some water wetter and see if that gets us back in the green for temp.

 

[170-3tree]

I almost got it!!! Toyed around this afternoon done. I got the idle straightened out, smooth for a 274 cam and more importantly consistent.

BUT when I go out for a bit and let her get to operating temp, it just dies when you put in the clutch to idle. I am not sure where to start tracking this. Assume I need to perform tests at full operating temp, but what? Honestly it will not get up to full temp in the garage it ran for about 20 min reving and idling. I don't mind this, means its not overheating. But where do I start!?!

Thanks all!!!

 

[xctasy]

You don't have an automatic, so all the talk about stall ratios and automatic torque conveters isn't relevant, but I suspect your missing stable ignition advance right off idle and not enough throttle blade opening at idle. The CI head is no flow restriction at idle, so the carb has to flow plenty of air and be rich enough at every point. Ignition advance required ramp up needs to have more initial timing (16 deg) , and faster growth off idle, then end up having less than 34 degrees all in by 3000 rpm. The head at every valve lift is flowing 70% more air, so the stock advance is totally wrong for it, and the air fuel mix is likely to be wrong too.

The first thing is to sort out igntion advanc settings. If you listen to the guys that have done this on there project cars or customer cars, they are quite resolute about making sure the mechanical advance is enough to stop any drivablity problems. People like FSD and turbo2246b keep stressing the basics bebore fiddling with the air fuel mixture.

Dont realy know much about your engine condition or modifications. I will say that I disconnect vacuum advance or MAP and get my mechanical or equivelent correct first. It also includes dialing A/F ratio then move on to ad in vacuum advance or MAP. Most today Vacuum advance 10* or less. Depending on cam and such vacuum at which it cuts in needs adjusted too.

Ignition first (read every FSD post)
then carb
then transfer slot exposure, drilling the throttles with 1/8" holes,
then cold crank compression less than 180 psi by retarding or advancing the cam
only then should you contemplate a high stall converter or tricky 350/500 cfm 2-bbl or 390-465 cfm 4-bbl carb adaptions

Thanks to michael_cini and Falconsix delivery , mach1 mark and cfmustang, plus some recomendations from Aussie7mains

Three very important things. Read these three posts.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47555&p=357509#p357509

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=64405&p=506921#p506921

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61762&p=473335#p473335


These are the typical "IT WON'T IDLE, DO I NEED A HIGH STALL CONVERTER" post

After you've done a quick check of the ignition, bearing in mind that a Duraspark doesn't follow the Loadamatic vac routing.

Then the key is that the carb must be slightly open of the transfer slot when idle is set. If you have problems with off idle bog or low rpm, this is your first call to check the throttle blades have been cracked open enough so the idle mixture and speeds can result in the recomended park and drive rpms. With the lines unconnected, and the bdtc figure is without the line hitched to the distributor, and at the right engine speed recomended.

If you don't get idle stable enough, if you have a few spare hours, and maybee a spare throttle shaft and throttle butterflies and screws, drill up to four 1/8" to 5/32 (125 to 156 thou ) holes into the throttle butterflys starting at the smallest practical drill size 1/64 of 16 thou, then go up until you get a stable idle. Reset the idle, still with the transfer slot exposed slightly.

According to the old time experts, with Holley 2300 series carbs like the 350, 500 and 650 cfm 2-bbls (and 4-bbl/4150/4160 ), timing is touchy when you cam them up. Just a little too much cam timing, and the carb can suffers a 'fuel standoff' situation at just off idle, due to the carb not having enough stable air flow. Thats where the rooster tail of atomised droplets of fuel no longer stabiliy sits in a haze above the throttle blades. This is technically stemming from the valve duration at 30 thou inlet and exhast valve being more than the stock 240, 252 and 256 cams 200 cube engines typically ran. The off idle hole can be avoided by proper ignition and carb set up.

Opening up the carb blades at idle should cure this problem, then you can set mixtures and idle speed. If you don't get an improvement there, make throttle holes as the cams get bigger.You can start small with four If a new 2350 to 2800 converter is not on the horizon, the last option, if it all fails, is to use the Aussie7mains trick of swapping the bigger 500 carb on to the stock 350 throttle body. This is an old spin on putting smaller throttle bodies onto a bigger 4150/4160 4-bbls carb like they do on Tunnel Ram V8's.

(According to the old SA bookes on Holleys, various changes to Holleys by scrambling components can help fuel standoff with big cams. For intance, drag racers or street and strip duty cars could have 660cfm 4-bbl Centre Squirter throttle bodies on 800 cfm carbs, or 390 cfm throttle bodies on 465 cfm 4-bbl carbs. It was all to improve the signal, to avoid unstable fuel flow. Signal is the difference between the venturi bore size and the throttle bodade bore diameters. 35 to 41% difference helps if there is a driveablity problem on a tunnel ram, and it should work on 200 and 250 cube engines with cams and carb changes)

 

[170-3tree]

That has been dwelling in my mind. I am seeking someone who knows how to properly do it locally. But the one fellow I knew passed away. I think I just need to bite the bullet and take a week off from my car and send it to Faron.

Just means I have time to scrap the intake emissions from my Mazda.