another turbo question

yodabiri

Well-known member
Well I finally am in the process of putting together a turbo engine ( i think, we will see with time). Anyways i was just wondering if a turbo from a 3.8 buick gn would work or if it would be better to go with something like a full garrett t40E? 4.1L and 3.8L seem quite close to me, but i may be completely mistaken. Also if the gn turbo would work, are there rebuild kits available for them at places like autozone or something like that?

thanks for your input!
 
I'd look to eBay or other internet sources for turbo needs, they won't have it at your local store.

The GN turbos were a little undersized for the application, and should work well. I've heard that the 87 models had the worst turbos, but have no firsthand experience.
 
You have to ask yourself what you want from a turbocharger. Do you want improved lowend power or improved hig end power? The turbo will improve volumetric efficeincy at whatever revs you select. Once you have decided, you can do a simple bit of algebra to work out the mass flow required and see if your turbo will do the trick, by looking at the map.
 
Reading these compressor maps is difficult. I have one of these:
t3-45trimcurrentcompressor.jpg


This is what seems to be most desired:
to4b-s3.jpg


How can you tell where your power kicks in and drops off?

According to Ray Halls calculator to achieve 2 bar at 1800 rpm I need 9.5 lbs per min and 18.5 at 3500. Those numbers fit in the 70% area on the T3. That is where I want it, not at 5000!
 
What's your engine displacement, max power rpm and max torque rpm? Are you running an intercooler, have a performance cam and exhaust? Compression ratio?

I'll run a calc for you if you provide the figures.
 
Spec's are

250ci
2 barrell carb or CFI throttle body
8:1 cr
Duraspark II
factory cam
2.5 to 3 inch exhaust very low restriction
could use an intercooler but won't be on boost often or long
would like max torque at 3500 rpm or close to it, building from about 1500

This is my daily driver, I am looking for point and shoot traffic type torque. Not a 1320 or road race vehicle, just get out of my own way.

Is this what you are looking for as well yodabiri?
 
I need to know where the engine VE points are to simulate a system curve, so what are the max power and max torque rpm without a turbo? Stock figures will do.
 
I believe these are the correct #s, and should be reasonably close.

hp 136@3500 and tq 224@2500

Thanks for looking at this!
 
This is best case scenario and the power/torque figures are probably going to be higher than what you'll really achieve, but it does give an indication of best compressor fit. In the calcs I have allowed 4V throttle plate drop of nominal 1 psi

If I calculate using these figures:

118 -127kW@ 4200 and 339Nm@2200
PR =2.14 (to allow drop across the intercooler)
Intercooler 75%
CR 8.1

At 4200 rpm without any boost you will be displacing 18.7 bs/min, with 2PR upstream of the throttle plate you'll be pumping 39.1lbs with intercooler and 25.4lbs without.

At nominal peak torque 2200 rpm you will displacing 11.7lbs off boost and 24 lbs at 2PR boost with an intercooler and 15.7 without


With the T3/45

You are going to be in the choke region just after you hit peak torque rpm of 2200 and it's not likely it can actually maintain anything past 25 lbs nor contribute much to increased top end. Without an intercooler it will choke after 3000 rpm

With the TD48

With intercooler you are going to be in the surge region up to 1600 rpm and choke at about 3900 rpm. Without an intercooler it will surge upto 1800rpm, but at least it won't choke.


So the T3 will probably give a fairly peaky bottom end and tail off rapidly and never meet the engines potential , while the TD48l has a fairly low efficiency in the choke region, but at least it is capable of pumping the 39lbs, albeit with a faster turbine.



Try 3.5" exhaust
 
Sorry 66shelby, I did the post a few hours ago using figures from the net and clicked the submit button after coming back to the desk. I'll do a rough recalc, but I think the preferred selection will stay the same.

I should also say that your peak torque rpm will probably move up to about 2700rpm
 
Well I want the car to have more lower end grunt preferably because i am most likely not going to doe any drag racing just street driving and scaring bent 8's once in a while. But anyways the GN turbo is undersized? Hmm... darn. Would it still work well in the region below 5000? or will it choke after 3900ish as mentioned in one of the previous responses? Just wondering.


Thanks

Sorry if my questions are kinda ignorant, but i am trying to learn to deal with turbos as much as i can before i do anything that can enganger myself or more importantly my car (or is it the other way around? :) )
 
Oh one more thing, the car is a 65 mustang and it will have a 250 engine backed by a t5 transmission and 8"rear with 3.25 gears ( already have all of these) and the turbo setup will include an intercooler.


Thanks
 
I think it'll work OK. Will it be perfect? No. But hasa68mustang put a tiny IHI turbo from a 2.2L on his 200, and he made impressive power. Much more than stock, at least. Cound it have been better? Yeah, but for the cash outlay, it was a pretty sweet setup. It did fall on its face above 4000, but the stock engine does that too.

Sometimes it is better to put on what you have now and upgrade later. Else you'll never get anything done.
 
wallaka":1ateuki6 said:
Sometimes it is better to put on what you have now and upgrade later. Else you'll never get anything done.

Word.

I've got a stock T3 off a mid 80's Saab.

I am using it to get all the auxillary stuff working. Once It's all setup, then I will drop the $ on a "real" turbo that is actually a matched choice.
 
Okay, BIG lightbulb just went off!

I didn't understand the relationship between the basic engine parameters and how the turbo interacts.

If I follow this you aim for the sweet spot of the engine for ideal conditions? Not just looking for efficiency marks across the map.

The I6 has a natural tendency toward a low rpm peak on both torque and horsepower. How can you take advantage of that with the turbo application? As I said before, I really don't intend to rev over 4K.
 
I will try and see if the local U-pull-it has any grand nationals with their respective turbos, and I if i find one i will snap it up so that I have something to start with. I have another puzzling question though. I just did some calculations and looked at the compression ratio of the setup i want to do, and there may be detonation issues because even if I run a 62cc chamber head, it still gives me a 9.1ish comression ratio. And from what i have read on this forum, people are keeping theirs at around 8:1.
I know i will have to figure out a way to keep the timing back a little ( I think Does10s has the info on that), but does anybody else think that the comression may pose a problem.


Thanks
 
9:1 will probably be fine. Hardly anybody runs 8:1, the power loss is not worth it. 8.5:1 is the lowers you'll see, and this rarely.
 
66shelby, what may help you understand things better is that the engine has it's own inherent efficiencies. I'll ramble on a bit and maybe some of it may make sense.

When I asked you for the max torque and peak hp rpm, I was looking for two points of reference to include with the idle rpm. I then use the torque vector to work a theoretical efficiency curve. I know that the peak torque rpm is a little past the peak VE rpm and I know from various ECU tunes the typical VE at idle and max power for a single cam wheezer like your engine.


What we know about VE in the engine is the higher the volumetric efficiency the more power per stroke. With the turbo we know that the higher the pumping efficiency the less work is transformed into heat that reduces air density and thus reduces oxygen per volume.

In selecting the compressor we are selecting something that fits as snuggly as possible in our desirable boost range. It has nothing to do with the turbine at this stage, we just want to make sure the compressor can provide the mass air over the range with the smallest rotating mass.

In our example we could say we want the engine to pull like a train from idle up. Generally that means we want the conturs left of centre, but not left of the surge line to match up with the displacment of the engine at off idle revs. So for 2PR our 250 needs something like 8lbs/min at 1000 rpm = so you find a compressor that has the surge line sitting at 8 lbs/min where it intersects 2PR and the surge line, like the T3/45 you posted. Then you say to yourself I would like to have engine peak torque stay where it is, so you try to get the 24lbs at 2200 rpm into the peak efficiency island of the compressor like your TD48.

The problem now is that you effectively have a compressor that operates over (2200rpm - 1000rpm) x 2 = 2400 rpm , which means you don't get maximum benefit at peak power rpm of 4200 because the compressor is in choke condition; pumping relatively low density hot air that has a nasty habit of contributing to det. You could work back the other way and have the peak power rpm vectored to the choke line and the peak torque rpm vectored to the compressor peak efficiency island, but that would probably push the the low end revs into the surge region, like your TD48 where pumping tends to cease.

Now you asked how do you know where the sweet spot is, well that is highly subjective to the individual, but lets consider it's somewhere around peak torque. A simplistic way to estimate is to use some rubbery arithmetc:

So let's say your peak VE occurs at peak torque rpm and for the sake of the argument that figure is 80%, while the peak power is 60% VE. The turbocharger compressor meanwhile also has it's own efficiencies between, say 75% and 50%. Because engines operate on absolute pressures we need to work in absolutes. The 2PR means two atmospheres pressure. The efficiencies are therefore referencing two atmospheres.

If we take the peak compressor efficiency of 75% and add it to the phantom engine peak VE of 80% and average we would get (100 + 75 + 80)/2 = 127.5%. This is nothing to do with actual cylinder fill efficiency in respect to atmospheric pressure, it's just a way to make comparison.

But lets say you have chosen a compressor that sits the peak compressor efficiency island over the peak power rpm, leaving the 60% terrain sitting over the peak torque rpm. Now at peak torque rpm we have (100 +60 + 80)/2 = 120%. Because the peak efficiency island has moved over to the peak power rpm, the compressor 70% terrain is now sitting over rpms that equate to something like 75% VE, so applying the maths (100 +70 +75)/2 = 122.5%, this is higher than the 120% at engine peak VE rpm and therefore the comined compressor and engine efficiencies have moved the peak torque rpms higher. The highest result at the same PR will yeild something in the region of the peak torque rpm.


Of course you can manipulate the map by changing the turbine and it's housing, but that's another story.
 
yodabiri":1d160fij said:
....I just did some calculations and looked at the compression ratio of the setup i want to do, and there may be detonation issues because even if I run a 62cc chamber head, it still gives me a 9.1ish comression ratio. And from what i have read on this forum, people are keeping theirs at around 8:1.
I know i will have to figure out a way to keep the timing back a little ( I think Does10s has the info on that), but does anybody else think that the comression may pose a problem.


Thanks

Your CR isn't the sole determinant of det. It's your effective or dynamic compression, fuel and charge temperatures that dictate det. Effective compression is determined by the inlet closing angle, rod/stroke ratio and CR.
 
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