chng2 'head gasket-thinking about changing heads in prosses'

[MPGmustang]

this is a continuation of my other thread "oil changes are low..."

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=56454

i made a new thread so i don't derail my other thread... but it started there...

I have proof it's water leaking... check these pics out.. can you see the color?



it runs along most of the side, i don't think the passanger side is leaking but i know it's leaking here and when hot (run temp) it steams out the rear...

i called up Fivestar engines and they can have a head ready to swap for $200 and a felpro head gasket set for $60, they could mil the head for no extra charge to me, they do have the later heads (late 70's early 80's) to choose from, i think i should get one of these... BUT what do i mil it down to? or how much to take off, my goal is a 9-9.2:1 CR with my stock bottom, the 68 engines had a 54cc compression chamber what do i mil say a 78 head to?
http://www.fivestarengines.com/home.html
the other concern, my new autolight carb... will it fit the late 70's head?
i know there is the adaptors for these but i don't want to do too much i just like the idea of letting it breath better... i bet i could even exchange my exhaust manifold for a 2"outlet...

Thanks in advance,
Richard

 

[Vin Man]

Richard - I have a 2"outlet exhaust manifold I'll sell you cheap.

I've used Five Star engine in the past and like them, so you should be in good shape there.

I have the good head I took off my 67, but I'm reluctant to part with it at this time.

Milling of the head depends on your desired CR.

 

[MPGmustang]

Vinny:

PM for the Exhaust manifold

For the CR i'm looking for a 9.0-9.2 : 1 ratio

The falcon six performance handbook states to get a 77 or later head (i hope for a hex head as it's 1420 cfm and i'm not intrested in a 2 barrel carb) and mil it .070 and 3 angle valves... and some other things but i'm not picky just i'm jsut thinking will this get me my desired 9:1 CR?

I'm looking into the stock speks for the bore and stroke, i just don't know the head area or how to calculate it...

If anyone has already doen this or knows how to do this pls help

Thanks,
Richard

 

[Vin Man]

Vinny:

For the CR i'm looking for a 9.0-9.2 : 1 ratio

The falcon six performance handbook states to get a 77 or later head (i hope for a hex head as it's 1420 cfm and i'm not intrested in a 2 barrel carb) and mil it .070 and 3 angle valves... and some other things but i'm not picky just i'm jsut thinking will this get me my desired 9:1 CR?

I'm looking into the stock speks for the bore and stroke, i just don't know the head area or how to calculate it...

If anyone has already doen this or knows how to do this pls help

Thanks,
Richard

The other question I would add is "will this head work have a negative impact on your mpg?" Your goal was 30mpg or better. While upgrading the head and increasing the CR will give you power, I suspect it will cut into your fuel economy. If you want to maximize the mpg, then you'll likely want to stay with the stock equipment.

Others, please chime in as I am definitely not sure about my statement above.

 

[MPGmustang]

well i don't know either but my idea is this... again i don't know

if i increase the CR then i can lean out the mixture even more as it burns hotter...

i hope others chime in... but i still want a 9:1 (ish) CR for the everyday fuel...

i found this on the the CI website about a 66block with a later 77 head...
http://www.classicinlines.com/HeadSwap.asp

Thanks,
Richard

 

[Anlushac11]

If the head has not been cut before you can mill the head .060" and slap on a Corteco head gasket from Classic Inlines.

If the head has been cut before then you will need to cc the chambers to find out how much you need to remove to bring compression back up.


http://www.classicinlines.com/proddetai ... OR-200-CHG

You will also need to add some hardened washers under the head bolts to keep head bolts from bottoming out and giving a false torque reading while torquing the head bolts an reslut will be a leaking head gasket.

You can use this calculator for the inline six to play with your combo.

http://falconperformance.sundog.net/compcalculator.asp

If I recall correctly every .010" milled off is 2.5cc removed from the chamber.

 

[aribert]

What carb are you planning to use with the late head? If it is an Autolight 1100, you will need some sort of an adapter to go from the 1.5 in bore to the 1.75 inch dia bore. Below are some links to an aluminum adapter that I made in order to be able to temporarily run a 1100 on a '78 head last year (I just installed a 32/36 Weber and I took these pics as I uninstalled the set-up.

Adapter - 1/2 inch Alum plate
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll27 ... rplate.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll27 ... rplate.jpg

Carb spacer - note: mounting holes have been slotted **inboard** to avoid the mounting holes of the adapter to spacer from interfering
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll27 ... gholes.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll27 ... dapter.jpg

Compete assy
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll27 ... lation.jpg

A word of caution (this may be obvious to others that have worked w/ the 1100 (I swapped over from a Holley 1918) Make sure that the hose clamp (if you route your heater hoses thru the adapter) does not foul the accel pump rod). I bet that I spent 1/2 hour fooling with the throttle linkage, not understanding why the throttle would stick at one point before I looked under the carb
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll27 ... umprod.jpg

 

[MPGmustang]

Aribert: thank you for mentioning the bore size, i've been looking into it quite a bit this morning, a few questions

1)
I've read that you can take a new carb (late 70's lets say) and put it on a pre 69 engine, i have a holley 1940 carb that was on my 68 engine, so the carb bolt pattern is the same? or no?

2)
if it is the same can i take a 69 or later carb spacer and use it with my autolite 1100v? the carb bore would be .25" smaller than the plate... would i get vacum where it needs to be?

3) is there another way to use the 1100 without a plate or head work?

it comes down to "can i bolt this on or will i have to mod?" if mod is in the only way then i'm just going to replace the gasket and clean the surfaces i don't want to add any adapter that i don't need... because i need this up and running this weekend.

(if) for the mil'n since i have a bottom end with unknown mileage i'm going to shoot for a 8.7:1 CR

Thanks,
Richard

PS, yes that clamp does get in the way, i think i spent my fair share of time figuring it out also :roll:

 

[aribert]

1. I do not think so, but am not certain.
The later carb (as was on my '78 200 engine from a Fairmont) was a Holley 1946. THere was an EGR/smog plate under the carb. See link (the EGR plate is in the collection of parts that I was going to sell to someone but shipping to Canada didn't make sense). I happened to still have the .jpg in my photo album.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll27 ... ifold2.jpg

2. With the larger bore, the mounting bolt spacing had to be spread out also. Because the bolt spacing between the old and new is only about 0.25 to 0.38 inch difference (from memory, I made my adapter last June) I had to slot the holes inboard (toward the bore) on the Ford carb spacer that I used (C5 or C6 vintage) and use SHCS instead of hex hd bolts so that the bolts would not interfere with each other.

3. I so not think so, but a thorough search of the archives and questioning the author of the (Falcon) Performance Handbook would be in order.

THe way that I see it is that you could use a later smog carb (and the required throttle cable) or make an adapter to mount an earlier carb or stay with a pre '77? head.

I could sell you my adapter if interested (or my left over 1946 carb). I was planning on holding on to the adapter for another month or so, until I am certain that I do not have any critical issues with my self rebuilt Weber 2bbl. It would be Monday before I could ship it out.

 

[Vin Man]

If you have water leaking, which was your original post, why not pull off the head and look for cracks? Check head gasket. If you are lucky, you just need a new head gasket. Replace it and bolt all your stuff back on.

Cheapest solution.

Everything else you do will snowball into more mods, more cost, and likely a sacrifice in mpg. Just my 2 cents.

 

[early ford fan]

i just drilled and tapped two new holes for the carb.the cast iron drilled very easy.make sure to shake out the shavings.

 

[MPGmustang]

If you have water leaking, which was your original post, why not pull off the head and look for cracks? Check head gasket. If you are lucky, you just need a new head gasket. Replace it and bolt all your stuff back on.

Cheapest solution.

Everything else you do will snowball into more mods, more cost, and likely a sacrifice in mpg. Just my 2 cents.

that's what it's coming down too, what does it need?

it needs to be running this weekend... and a gasket set... and some TLC
everything else is just more cost and mods as i don't know if i need...

when i pull the head (probably tonight) i'll see how the head and the cyl walls are... checking valves and such... i would like to get the bigger head but i guess i'd better hold off, it's not needed, besides a newer head will retire a tired bottom engine faster...

Thanks everyone that helped with info... i'm going to hold off on this until i have more time and some money to use... (id rather measure twice cut once)
Richard

 

[Vin Man]

If you need a head, I'll sell you mine. You can just bolt it on and go. Nothing wrong with it. I just switched to the aussie head. My 2" exhaust manifold bolts right up to it and your carb will bolt onto it as well.

 

[MPGmustang]

i'll keep that in mind if my head has something wrong with it...

 

[MPGmustang]

update

yesterday i spent 14hours replacing that head gasket... i was a bit slower as that head is heavy by myself, and i have to keep running to the parts store for mis items (like flat edge razor and fine grit sandpaper)

took it all apart

while taking off the bolts i worked from front to back, the first ones (to about 3/4 fo the way) snappped loose with alot of effort (not broken snapped but a good grunt) the last 5 or so didn't require that last effort (i think i found the problem to my leak)
placed the rods in order thought the top of a box, same with head bolts.
once off the car i took off the exhaust..
i took off the head and looked at the gasket... nothing wrong with it at all... no discolorings no breaks or distortions... i'm thinking it was a small hole for steam when it was hot... it only started wednesday and i didn't drive it to where it got hot after i noticed it
cleaned up the head as best i can with a flat edge razor, trying to keep gunk out of the holes
sanded (lightly)all area's until MOST (not perfect) of the gasket was gone.. then tried the razor blade again for missed area's
the block as it was still in the car i decided to only rotate and razorblade the area's when the piston was uo, taking an oily rag (with fresh oil) to it to brush it off the block.. (very slow and painful prosess but i'm satisfied with the work) i did not take the sandpaper to the block for fear of grits getting in/on the cyl walls.... i did notice cyl 5 having steak marks on the rear on the wall (about 20marks) took my finger to them and couldn't feel anything
all top of cyls have about 1/4 to 3/8 of carbon build up at the top of the cyl a nice even rice (not nice but still there)
my pistons are dished but the have 1/16~3/32 inch of carbon build up on all pistons
the valves are caked with 1/16 or more of carbon along with most of the chamber
some valves are almost "flesh" with the chamber and some are noticibly pertruding farther out than others (you can feel with fingers)
i took brake cleaner with the head upside down and made a puddle in each chamber with the spark pulgs in... i changed the spark plug order so that they open towards the intake valve as best i could (from falcon handbook) letting is sit while i worked on block...
i smeaked ultra copper on the block to separate water and oil passages from each other and from the cyls themselves (not enough to bead out when compressed)
changed thermostat to 160* as i have A/C and the summer head os comming
emptied chambers and cleaned with brake cleaner then wipped with oily rag looked better but still decent abouts of carbon
attached the exhaust manifold to the head with ultracopper gasket and more ultracopper torqued to 35lbs (bit more than required but i don't want to take chances)
reassembled everything with proper torque specs, and stages

it didn't fire right up the first time becasue the new cap broke replaced it and then the new rotor broke, this time just used the old rotor and it fired right up.. i retimed it as i noticed my timing mark is perfect... i advanced it to 12* and drove around the block...

things i noticed
more pep, quieter, better acceleration

took the car home and let it cool... i'll retorque everthing monday a few heat cyls should be good. or should i wait till next saturday to retorque the head? i'll be driving it this week reguraly...

i do want to do...
take a spray bottle amd mist water down the carb when engine is hot... i'm thinking i should do this after i retorque head what do you think?

Thanks for the help and tips, i'll go for the new head when i get another engine to work with... maybe this summer...

Richard

Richard

 

[CZLN6]

Howdy Richard:

Nice adventure and thanks for the detailed report. May I ask a couple of questions? What head gasket was in place on disassembly? Shim? or ? What did you use for a replacement gasket?

FYI your '68 exhaust manifold should have a 2" outlet already. Did you check when you had it apart?

My apologies for joining this late, but, the later style head would need a mill cut of about .075" to maintain stock '68 200 CR of 8.8:1. That would break out to .050" for the differences in chamber volumes and .025" for the difference between a stock OEM steel shim head gasket and a Fel Pro. At this point you will need head bolt washers and, possibly, adjustible rocker arms

It is likely that the seep leakage you see on the drivers side of the block was due to the stock head gasket (?) and time and distortion on both the head surface and the block mating surface. The good news is the Fel Pro gasket can easily seal what the steel shim gaskets cannot. Ideally, a rebuild re-establishs true mating surfaces on both the head and the block. If you didn't have the head milled .025" you will lose CR.

Your questions about stock OEM carb to head adapters is a gross oversite in our Handbook and bears looking into. Adapters changed, obviously, with carb linkage, carbs, and vacuum switch needs, over the years. This may be a topic for future revisions. However, in reality, it may be easier to modify what you have, or fabricate what you need then to find the perfect adapter. Slotting carb mounting bolt holes and tapering the inside throat to allow a larger butterfly to clear are easy adaptations- easier then hunting for the right OEM adapter- IMHO.

FYI- The Holley 1940 "Service Replacement" carb is a poor substitute for any OEM carb. Typically, they get less mileage.

- The later head will not hurt mileage. All else being equal they should be a slight bit more efficient.

-a 160 degree thermostat will not help your engine to run cooler. It will open sooner. It may actually hurt your mileage as an engine needs a proper amount of heat for oil and the combustion process to work well. I'd recommend a 180 thermo for all around driving. If your engine gets too hot in the summer with AC you may need to address your cooling system, add radiator shroud, or ?

Anyway, you're back on the road and your daily driver is rolling. Enjoy.

Adios, David

 

[Vin Man]

FYI- The Holley 1940 "Service Replacement" carb is a poor substitute for any OEM carb. Typically, they get less mileage.

- The later head will not hurt mileage. All else being equal they should be a slight bit more efficient.

Adios, David

David - thanks for answering my question about mileage and the efficiency of a new head. Please make sure to let us know if you publish a new edition of the handbook. I'll be in line for it!

 

[MPGmustang]

Vinny i'm right behind you on the hand book, i'm sure there has been a few more discoveries since the first publication.

CZL: the head is a c7 (67) on a 68 (from tag) block... so i didn't have the shim... what it looked like was an older FelPro ... i replaced with a new FelPro and i noticed a few diffrences in the rubber words but not the hole sizes...

i did measure the exhaust it a 2" for sure... i used a solid exhaust flange and gooped it up with ultra copper, i hope i don't leak cause i took extra time to make sure i got this stuff everywhere...

i probably should have gotten thehead miled as it looks like it was never milled... so i suspect i'm running a low CR than stock... no that big of a deal right now... (if only i had known earlier)

i'm running the 160* thermo for my summer upgrade (after DUI) to an electric fan... thought hey i'm in here now i might as well switch it out...
i'm hoping i can find the fan i needs to clear my 3 row rad and water pump, setting will be on @ 200* and off @ 180*.. this way i know my thermo is open the whole time with the fan turning on or off... ATM when i run the A/C it really gets hot and sometimes the A/C can't cool fast enough in stop-n-go so for now it's an experment... a question that arose and i'm askin on here for confermation on a wide selection of ppl... which way does the thermo go in... spring towards the block or away from the block? ATM i have it towards the block i have a theory for both... towards so the spring heats up quickly or away so the engine heats up hotter than operating temp and forces spring to open once open the flow of the hot water opens the spring at perfect intervals... honestly i like the 2nd theroy best

things i did replace during this
Distributor cap and rotor
changed the heater tubes from the carb plate to a 5/8 metal pipe

thanks,
Richard