Crossflow Epiphany!
- Thread starter MustangSix
- Start date
Fully equipped, there's about 30 lbs to be saved. Weight of the log head varies from year to year. The later ones are a bit heavier than the early ones.
According to my bathroom scales:
The alloy head, less manifolds, weighs 39 lbs. A 4bbl intake and a cast exhaust add 14 lbs for a total of 53lbs.
The iron log head weighs 80lbs with rockers attached. The exhaust manifold is another 6lbs for a total of 86lbs.
According to my bathroom scales:
The alloy head, less manifolds, weighs 39 lbs. A 4bbl intake and a cast exhaust add 14 lbs for a total of 53lbs.
The iron log head weighs 80lbs with rockers attached. The exhaust manifold is another 6lbs for a total of 86lbs.
Oh goody, sounds like I'm going to have some fun this holiday!!
I was figuring out my own EFI system, but seems I won't have to crack my head on it anymore.
Please keep us posted, supply as much info, pictures, drawings, fingerprints, cat-hair and remainings of old Egyptian civilisations as possible!!
Too bad the Duraspark II ignition is a big NONO.
Keep up the superb work!!!
Nicolas
I was figuring out my own EFI system, but seems I won't have to crack my head on it anymore.
Please keep us posted, supply as much info, pictures, drawings, fingerprints, cat-hair and remainings of old Egyptian civilisations as possible!!
Too bad the Duraspark II ignition is a big NONO.
Keep up the superb work!!!
Nicolas
66200i6
Famous Member
Don't discount the EFI just yet. At: http://www.sdsefi.com/specific.html they offer a system that replaces the distributor. With the use of a crank trigger and multiple coils on the Crossflow head, not only is the routing of plug wires and distributor interference solved but you also have the added efficiency and power from the EFI system.
Makes you want to say, Hummm?
Ric.
Makes you want to say, Hummm?
Ric.
G
Guest
Guest
If you didn't already know, Jack used the SDS EFI on his Crossflow.
I'm going MegaSquirt
Al
I'm going MegaSquirt
Al
G
Guest
Guest
Bort62":319tlhbd said:Hey Al
Megasquirt has no Spark control ;(
I am using a Typhoon/syclone ECM
MegaJolt is just around the corner......
Al
A
Anonymous
Guest
Wow!... I've been away for awhile. Looks like I missed alot. That is so cool. Just what these engines needed to wake them up. Good work Jack.
I'd like to do something like that. I imagine a wild Crow cam and a four-barrel carb.
I'd like to do something like that. I imagine a wild Crow cam and a four-barrel carb.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Jack I think you just officially started a mainia.
The Crossflow mainia in the US has begun....
Too bad I am already along on my 2v, maybe after the Mustang is finished I might have to look into a Falcon, EFI-6 that would be way too much fun......?
The Crossflow mainia in the US has begun....
Too bad I am already along on my 2v, maybe after the Mustang is finished I might have to look into a Falcon, EFI-6 that would be way too much fun......?
LEROY POLL
Well-known member
HELLO JACK
.... I JUST LOOKED AND IT WAS AT 1000 LOOK IN'S. THIS IS NOT MY FIRST LOOK IN, BUT JUST WANT TO SEE ANYTHING YOU MIGHT HAVE POSTED TODAY.
.... 1000..... IS THAT A RECORD FOR A WEEK?
LIVE IN GRACE
LEROY POLL
.... I JUST LOOKED AND IT WAS AT 1000 LOOK IN'S. THIS IS NOT MY FIRST LOOK IN, BUT JUST WANT TO SEE ANYTHING YOU MIGHT HAVE POSTED TODAY.
.... 1000..... IS THAT A RECORD FOR A WEEK?
LIVE IN GRACE
LEROY POLL
Time for a self confessed "ratbag stirrer" to throw some cold water on the barbie.
Remember:
•This has not been proven yet, but the theory looks good.
•There are about five flavours of alloy head; some more preferable than others. A thread will likely start on this in the "Aussie Sixes" shortly.
•The cost is not just the head (which, while cheap, are getting less common), but a whole bunch of parts. Harrie sketched out a good list. Many have to be shipped over also.
•There is also the additional machine work to consider.
Not trying to put a permanent damper on things, just grounding the discussion a little.
Hmm... We just need to work out how to get rid of the GM "Camira" 4 cylinder OHC heads to the US now... Or better yet, the whole car.
(Aussie in-joke.)
Regards, Adam.
Remember:
•This has not been proven yet, but the theory looks good.
•There are about five flavours of alloy head; some more preferable than others. A thread will likely start on this in the "Aussie Sixes" shortly.
•The cost is not just the head (which, while cheap, are getting less common), but a whole bunch of parts. Harrie sketched out a good list. Many have to be shipped over also.
•There is also the additional machine work to consider.
Not trying to put a permanent damper on things, just grounding the discussion a little.
Hmm... We just need to work out how to get rid of the GM "Camira" 4 cylinder OHC heads to the US now... Or better yet, the whole car.
(Aussie in-joke.) Regards, Adam.
Addo is absolutely correct. This is still not a real running engine yet, though I am very close.
Why do this at all? It's very easy to get Aussie blocks and just rebuild those and avoild all this to begin with. But I have two good reasons (and one shaky one) for attempting this.
First are the packaging issues.
- The Aussie Crossflow is a tall deck block like our 250. That makes it harder to get under the hood of a Mustang. Even thought the EFI was very compact, there were some minor clearance issues getting that thing into the coupe. The Crossflow head is light and on top of a short deck 200 block, is very compact. This whole powerplant weighs in at just over 300 lbs. Imagine taking another 50-60 lbs off the front end of an early Mustang. The F/R weight distribution would be very good.
- Part of the packaging problem is accessories. US brackets are close, but not quite the same, so pulleys and brackets have to be modified to use existing AC, Alternator, pumps, etc.
- Then the biggie, the drivetrain interface. The Oz engines have entirely different bellhousing patterns which means you have to do a simultaneous transmission swap or rework. The blocks also lack a clutch pivot boss in the proper location so none of the manual linkage works. You'll have to do a cable, or hydraulic, or do some signficant rework of the existing linkage to include some custom fabrication.
By using the US block, after you get the mods done it's a drop in for an existing engine with no changes to the drivetrain or clutch required.
Second is logistics.
- They are easy to get, cheap (often free), and are not hard to ship, but Oz is 10000 miles from here. It doesn't pay to ship one engine at a time. I think that Ausheads attempt at stuffing a container is the best route, but there are shipping, stuffing, stripping, customs, documentation and other fees which could add several hundreds of dollars to a "free" engine.
- The Oz blocks have very few components in common with the US engines. Lifters and rod bearings is about all, although the US water and oil pumps can be modified to fit. All other parts and gaskets have to be shipped over. It is very frustrating to wait on a small part to arrive from Oz.
Finally, I just want to do it. Everyone told me two years ago it couldn't be done. The guys in Australia have no reason to do this swap so i doubt it's been attempted. This is new ground and it may not work.
And as Addo mentions, there are many variations on the alloy head, some better than others, I'm sure. The three that I have are all different, but we'll have to see how they work out.
Stand by, we're getting there!
Why do this at all? It's very easy to get Aussie blocks and just rebuild those and avoild all this to begin with. But I have two good reasons (and one shaky one) for attempting this.
First are the packaging issues.
- The Aussie Crossflow is a tall deck block like our 250. That makes it harder to get under the hood of a Mustang. Even thought the EFI was very compact, there were some minor clearance issues getting that thing into the coupe. The Crossflow head is light and on top of a short deck 200 block, is very compact. This whole powerplant weighs in at just over 300 lbs. Imagine taking another 50-60 lbs off the front end of an early Mustang. The F/R weight distribution would be very good.
- Part of the packaging problem is accessories. US brackets are close, but not quite the same, so pulleys and brackets have to be modified to use existing AC, Alternator, pumps, etc.
- Then the biggie, the drivetrain interface. The Oz engines have entirely different bellhousing patterns which means you have to do a simultaneous transmission swap or rework. The blocks also lack a clutch pivot boss in the proper location so none of the manual linkage works. You'll have to do a cable, or hydraulic, or do some signficant rework of the existing linkage to include some custom fabrication.
By using the US block, after you get the mods done it's a drop in for an existing engine with no changes to the drivetrain or clutch required.
Second is logistics.
- They are easy to get, cheap (often free), and are not hard to ship, but Oz is 10000 miles from here. It doesn't pay to ship one engine at a time. I think that Ausheads attempt at stuffing a container is the best route, but there are shipping, stuffing, stripping, customs, documentation and other fees which could add several hundreds of dollars to a "free" engine.
- The Oz blocks have very few components in common with the US engines. Lifters and rod bearings is about all, although the US water and oil pumps can be modified to fit. All other parts and gaskets have to be shipped over. It is very frustrating to wait on a small part to arrive from Oz.
Finally, I just want to do it. Everyone told me two years ago it couldn't be done. The guys in Australia have no reason to do this swap so i doubt it's been attempted. This is new ground and it may not work.
And as Addo mentions, there are many variations on the alloy head, some better than others, I'm sure. The three that I have are all different, but we'll have to see how they work out.
Stand by, we're getting there!
Yup, all understood. But I still will eagerly wait for the results.
I have to admit the variation of X-flow heads is daunting - but I figure all questions will be answered in time and by then I should have a decent block, crank and rods put together.
Good luck on the testing!
Dean T
I have to admit the variation of X-flow heads is daunting - but I figure all questions will be answered in time and by then I should have a decent block, crank and rods put together.
Good luck on the testing!
Dean T
Yep, the very same thing here.
But I have the fullest confidence in you.
One question though: I'm planning to put flat top pistons in my engine, is is possible with such a head? Is the chamber volume lesser or greater than that of a normal head?
Can't wait for an update!!
But I have the fullest confidence in you.
One question though: I'm planning to put flat top pistons in my engine, is is possible with such a head? Is the chamber volume lesser or greater than that of a normal head?
Can't wait for an update!!
Nicolas,
Different incarnations have different cc's, I believe. Al can take a slightly higher CR due to its heat dissipating qualities. Factor your overbore into the CR, as it's 60 over, from mammary. (Check out the compression calculator supplied by the Schjeldahl Bros.)
Unless you can get (and intend to use) 100 or similar RON fuel, don't go past 10:1.
And a general note... I am expecting the real-world head conversion cost to come out similar to a full transplant.
Adam.
Different incarnations have different cc's, I believe. Al can take a slightly higher CR due to its heat dissipating qualities. Factor your overbore into the CR, as it's 60 over, from mammary. (Check out the compression calculator supplied by the Schjeldahl Bros.)
Unless you can get (and intend to use) 100 or similar RON fuel, don't go past 10:1.
And a general note... I am expecting the real-world head conversion cost to come out similar to a full transplant.
Adam.
Adam,
thanks for that, as always
Does that include a different transmission bell housing and all other things?
I still have to take the Belgian technical control into account, they registered
my car with a certain engine number, I don't think I can just swap and pretend
nothing happened.
BTW, it was 40 oversize. 50% of your number was fantasized
Oh, another question to Jack: is that post count for real?????
thanks for that, as always
Does that include a different transmission bell housing and all other things?
I still have to take the Belgian technical control into account, they registered
my car with a certain engine number, I don't think I can just swap and pretend
nothing happened.
BTW, it was 40 oversize. 50% of your number was fantasized
Oh, another question to Jack: is that post count for real?????
The following is what I've gleaned over the past few years.
I may be corrected if needs be, but the blue print head cc for all X-flow OHV alloy heads was 53 cc. The 3.3 and 4.1 Aussie engines all ran tall deck US 250 style blocks with the early seven bearing 200-style sumps and timing gears. The pistons were a lot closer to the heads, and had different dish volumes to adjust. Any carb 3.3 or 4.1 will be 53 cc.
3.3 had 9.35:1 compression (same head as 4.1)
4.1 had 9.65:1 compression
4.1 EFI had 8.8:1 compression.
Jack could probably name the cc's of his two heads in the Mustang build- up. One was the open chamber, the other the hi-swirl.
All post Dec 1982 engines had relief cuts in the intake ports to suit the EFI option, but all engines got it. This makes me think that the EFI had either a different head gasket or pistons to get the lower compression. (I don't even know, I don't do EFI engines.) All 1980 to 1982Dec engines were more open chamber like a 351 Cleveland.
Post 1985 engines were getting re-engineered for unleaded gas, so the high swirl, kidney-shaped cahmber came in at this time. It got shrouded intake valves , ovesized to raise the intake flow, and this head is more prone to detonation. It's very much what Ford US did with the 5.0 HO EFI engine in 1986..created an excellent smog engine with high-swirl heads...and one that you dare not modify due to the great deal of expertise Ford put into it. Most mods to these heads screws up the swirl, causing increased detonation according to the engine builders I've talked to. Discokin6 and others feel that the pinking/detonation issues were more to do with the crap 91 RON gasoline and aggressive spark curve the post 1985 Falcons often ended up running. I agree with this. For many years, the Aussie brew of unleaded was well over 97 Octane, and Ford used all the igntion advance it could handle with this excellent gasoline. After 1995, it became absolute crap. (This was why I switched to propane...all my mates were frying their Clevleland V8's and blowing pre-cross flow Falcons in huge numbers due to pinking.)
With 1986 July, unleaded fuel became mandatory. Oz Falcons met the US 1975 clean air standards, just like West Germany did in 1986. With this, I think Ford re-jigged the comprssion ratios a little, but I think it was a re-work of the same casting. All carb and EFI engines got feedback adjustment for ignition control, and were well set up engines. These engines had better quality valve inserts, but all Alloyhead engines are inserted, and I've run the same (1984 vintage) original factory valve inserts for years in my propane engine. Honda and Ford made a robust cylinder head with these babies!
My summary is any Alloy head dumped on a US-spec 144,170,200 or 250 will have a lower compression ratio due to the big gap between the deck and top of the piston on your engines. Aussie engines had 25 thou or less deck clearance. Most US engines were over 30 thou...sometimes up to 80 thou.
I may be corrected if needs be, but the blue print head cc for all X-flow OHV alloy heads was 53 cc. The 3.3 and 4.1 Aussie engines all ran tall deck US 250 style blocks with the early seven bearing 200-style sumps and timing gears. The pistons were a lot closer to the heads, and had different dish volumes to adjust. Any carb 3.3 or 4.1 will be 53 cc.
3.3 had 9.35:1 compression (same head as 4.1)
4.1 had 9.65:1 compression
4.1 EFI had 8.8:1 compression.
Jack could probably name the cc's of his two heads in the Mustang build- up. One was the open chamber, the other the hi-swirl.
All post Dec 1982 engines had relief cuts in the intake ports to suit the EFI option, but all engines got it. This makes me think that the EFI had either a different head gasket or pistons to get the lower compression. (I don't even know, I don't do EFI engines.) All 1980 to 1982Dec engines were more open chamber like a 351 Cleveland.
Post 1985 engines were getting re-engineered for unleaded gas, so the high swirl, kidney-shaped cahmber came in at this time. It got shrouded intake valves , ovesized to raise the intake flow, and this head is more prone to detonation. It's very much what Ford US did with the 5.0 HO EFI engine in 1986..created an excellent smog engine with high-swirl heads...and one that you dare not modify due to the great deal of expertise Ford put into it. Most mods to these heads screws up the swirl, causing increased detonation according to the engine builders I've talked to. Discokin6 and others feel that the pinking/detonation issues were more to do with the crap 91 RON gasoline and aggressive spark curve the post 1985 Falcons often ended up running. I agree with this. For many years, the Aussie brew of unleaded was well over 97 Octane, and Ford used all the igntion advance it could handle with this excellent gasoline. After 1995, it became absolute crap. (This was why I switched to propane...all my mates were frying their Clevleland V8's and blowing pre-cross flow Falcons in huge numbers due to pinking.)
With 1986 July, unleaded fuel became mandatory. Oz Falcons met the US 1975 clean air standards, just like West Germany did in 1986. With this, I think Ford re-jigged the comprssion ratios a little, but I think it was a re-work of the same casting. All carb and EFI engines got feedback adjustment for ignition control, and were well set up engines. These engines had better quality valve inserts, but all Alloyhead engines are inserted, and I've run the same (1984 vintage) original factory valve inserts for years in my propane engine. Honda and Ford made a robust cylinder head with these babies!
My summary is any Alloy head dumped on a US-spec 144,170,200 or 250 will have a lower compression ratio due to the big gap between the deck and top of the piston on your engines. Aussie engines had 25 thou or less deck clearance. Most US engines were over 30 thou...sometimes up to 80 thou.
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